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Offlinelibertarian23
strangeranger
Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 78
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12858086 - 07/06/10 08:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

well about the government and the internet honestly i dont want them getting their foot in the door because then THEY WILL control it and monitor the sites that everyone goes to(if they dont already--i think some FBI guy is probably claiming the Patriot Act gives them the right)i know i'm probably a little paranoid


hey communeart whats up--obama he's had a tough job and i think he made a lot of poor decisions but i think his ideology is lacking and thats the problem...i respect an idealogue who stands for something much more than someone like john mccain who doesn't stand for anything
and where my political thoughts are socially i'm probably much farther left than obama while economically i'm much farther right than ron paul. oh and love the debate thanks for the comment on the book page


the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.


and yes i'm serious at least the democrats admit quite a bit that they think government can solve almost everything while republicans talk a decent game about small government and then run out and pass tougher sentences so that their buddies in the privately owned prison systems can loot the government for some more cash all the while giving subsidies to farmers and any of their constituents that need federal contracts.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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Registered: 05/23/09
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12858415 - 07/06/10 09:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

libertarian23 said:
well about the government and the internet honestly i dont want them getting their foot in the door because then THEY WILL control it and monitor the sites that everyone goes to(if they dont already--i think some FBI guy is probably claiming the Patriot Act gives them the right)i know i'm probably a little paranoid


hey communeart whats up--obama he's had a tough job and i think he made a lot of poor decisions but i think his ideology is lacking and thats the problem...i respect an idealogue who stands for something much more than someone like john mccain who doesn't stand for anything
and where my political thoughts are socially i'm probably much farther left than obama while economically i'm much farther right than ron paul. oh and love the debate thanks for the comment on the book page


the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.


and yes i'm serious at least the democrats admit quite a bit that they think government can solve almost everything while republicans talk a decent game about small government and then run out and pass tougher sentences so that their buddies in the privately owned prison systems can loot the government for some more cash all the while giving subsidies to farmers and any of their constituents that need federal contracts.



Just be careful not to bunch all right wingers in with the mess of the republican party. Some of us are against all big government from welfare to farm subsidies. Not all of us are christian. Well not all of us are republican. I'm a right wing libertarian. I'm right wing on fiscal matters like you, but unlike you I'm also right wing with social matters. I personally am a strict constitutionalists.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12858635 - 07/06/10 10:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

well about the government and the internet honestly i dont want them getting their foot in the door because then THEY WILL control it and monitor the sites that everyone goes to(if they dont already--i think some FBI guy is probably claiming the Patriot Act gives them the right)i know i'm probably a little paranoid




well i agree you have a point there, but they will already control the internet no matter what, so corporations getting their hand off the internet is still one less person controlling it.
Quote:

oh and love the debate thanks for the comment on the book page



no prob :smile:
Quote:

the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.



yes i liked the tea party when ron paul had strong support in it. on many leftist site i see alot of people calling the tea party a manifestation of fascism ( it would take whatever form appropriate according to them) i used to dislike that and i still do, however i find some of it to have elements which fascism has. such as yearning for a certain past golden age ( though i think the american golden age was following ww2), strong nationalism which is often about following the founding documents like the constitution, there are always talks about we didn't bring our guns this time.

the illegal immigrants is a threat etc, but then i found smart libertarians on the tea party patriots website arguing that fears of illegal immigrants was a typical way to boost the power of the state. and i was happy to see that some actually care about big government.
Quote:

where my political thoughts are socially i'm probably much farther left than obama while economically i'm much farther right than ron paul



what do you mean by being very leftist socially? i don't exactly know what you mean there, even though extreme drug prohibition is normally reserved to the right i've seen nazis who are one of the few i actually respect say that it was up to one's person to decide to hurt their brain or not, and since they strongly believe that genetics has alot to do with behavior they of course come with an excuse that disciplined individuals won't succumb to abuses etc. also they didn't seem to like the fact that minorities were imprisoned unlike what you would expect, they clearly saw it contributed to family problems and family values are important for all races in their opinion. it might be a leftist position, but just saying i have surprisingly met some people on the extreme-right in favor of legalisation .


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Registered: 06/17/10
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12858912 - 07/06/10 10:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

well i disagree with the fact that fascism is an extreme right position--a statist is a statist is a statist...but on the nazism point they definately banned smoking in many public places much like is happening throughout the u.s. in mostly democrat run areas--lack of respect for personal property and a person owning their own body(the jews REALLY had control of their own body--right)--lack of respect for business which is owned by a person not the state...your understanding of what is left and what is right is much different from mine...


i view it more like this:
<-authoritarian(communism, fascism, socialism,leftist anarchists)--democrats--republicans-+-libertarians--anarcho-capitalists)


now how am i much more of a leftist socially? well drug policy would definately be one where i take things more liberally. also gay marriage would be a second and on that note i would like to say if the government didn't control marriage(thru having to go get a marriage license from your government) we wouldn't need to have the discussion of whether or not gays should be allowed to marry...but they dont want to get rid of the money they get from it...the fact that we even argue whether or not someone is allowed to do something as small as unionizing assets proves were not living in a free society...also socially when it comes to the church i firmly believe we need to keep it the hell out of government and policy-making...when someone takes a moral position based on faith and says that must be the moral position for all people or else they can use force upon you(being locked up in jail is force) we have serious problems in a "free" society...social programs(ie: medicare, medicaid social security, public housing, farm subsidies) are not social issues, they are economic ones. we can say it is compassionate to help people who are in need and it is right to do that and charity is an important part of life; but taking money by force(if you dont pay your taxes, you will go to jail) is not compassion it is theft, and it is wrong. 
i am strongly against how many people we lock up in prison in this country as well as the use of the death penalty...on the death penalty we have had something like 250 people who, thru the innocence project, have been acquited after being on death row...thats fucking sad...one innocent person killed is too many and sadly many on the states' side aren't upset about this at all...mandatory minimum sentencing has devestated family life in the inner city and that is disturbing to me and something needs to be done about it considering many of the "crimes" are not crimes at all but people succombing to vices(ie: drugs, alcohal, etc.)
If you aren't commiting a crime against someone else there is no reason you should be forcibly removed from society.
Obama talked a good game about drug policy but look at whats taken place with him in office. There are still raids on legitimate clubs in california and growers. Hows that song go "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". And i believe thats the Who and i really hate their music but thats a different subject


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12859888 - 07/07/10 02:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

well i disagree with the fact that fascism is an extreme right position--a statist is a statist is a statist...but on the nazism point they definately banned smoking in many public places much like is happening throughout the u.s. in mostly democrat run areas--lack of respect for personal property and a person owning their own body(the jews REALLY had control of their own body--right)--lack of respect for business which is owned by a person not the state...your understanding of what is left and what is right is much different from mine...




i do agree on the nazi, and the fascist that's true, it should be something that i point out to them, for a fascist the body of people belongs to the community, that's why they generally think it is right to wake you up at 3 in the morning to search your house, or prevent you from marrying people for political reason like race, etc. ironically this obviously include drugs and it is one argument i used against a communist who was opposed to drug legalization and the argument was pretty strong, another socialist who didn't care either way actually asked him if he believed the body of a person belongs to the community ( being a fascist can get you banned in those forums, something i oppose since many fascist website even allow communist in them) he basicly replied that if it affects your behavior then it should be controlled, but we all know that's bullshit. problem is the debate suddenly turned to legalizing heroin like all prohibitionist like to do.
Quote:

i view it more like this:
<-authoritarian(communism, fascism, socialism,leftist anarchists)--democrats--republicans-+-libertarians--anarcho-capitalists)



well this is a very libertarian political compass :tongue2:. i could have mine when it comes to worker ownership of the means of production and working place democracy.

Fascism,Republicans,libertarians,Democrats,Socialist,Communist,Anarchist.

you know at least in my opinion libertarians don't crack down on unions like we can expect the republicans to do, they are volontary association after all. though the unions in the usa are pretty useless.
Quote:

also gay marriage would be a second and on that note i would like to say if the government didn't control marriage(thru having to go get a marriage license from your government) we wouldn't need to have the discussion of whether or not gays should be allowed to marry...but they dont want to get rid of the money they get from it...the fact that we even argue whether or not someone is allowed to do something as small as unionizing assets proves were not living in a free society...also socially when it comes to the church i firmly believe we need to keep it the hell out of government and policy-making...when someone takes a moral position based on faith and says that must be the moral position for all people or else they can use force upon you



i can understand that, but it is the position of ron paul and you can understand that there it is very possible to have discrimination with this, i actually argued in a similar way, i said that a new denomination should be created for homosexuals and that's it. i feel it is too offensive for priest to say no to homosexuals, i also feel it is too offensive to force a priest to do it. then again i am not a big fan of religion, and someone said that he doesn't like gay marriage as an issue, it is idiotic and there is far too much time devoted on it, it is a distraction that elites uses to make us forget about real issues. he also said he opposes it because it means homosexuals want to be normal, they should accept who they are, in a way i disagree with this but in another i agree. and my idea kinda works with that.

not to be an asshole with ron paul that i admire alot, but many from the white supremacist and extreme-right love him, many of their cause are actually allowed in a libertarian government, discrimination is alright since you have the right to choose who your customer is. gay marriage should be regulated by the states. he also oppose abortion, though i guess he would let the state do that too.
Quote:

i am strongly against how many people we lock up in prison in this country as well as the use of the death penalty...on the death penalty we have had something like 250 people who, thru the innocence project, have been acquited after being on death row...thats fucking sad...one innocent person killed is too many and sadly many on the states' side aren't upset about this at all...mandatory minimum sentencing has devestated family life in the inner city and that is disturbing to me and something needs to be done about it considering many of the "crimes" are not crimes at all but people succombing to vices(ie: drugs, alcohal, etc.)
If you aren't commiting a crime against someone else there is no reason you should be forcibly removed from society.



yeah i guess that make you clearly on the left, i agree that mandatory minimums are insane, especially removing student loans to people who use pot, it sort of disprove that everyone who smokes pot will always be a loser who can never achieve anything if they have to make you fail for smoking pot in the first place.

death row is often classist and racist, and if people are often innocented after being on death row there's clearly a problem. sometime a single murder will get you on deathrow, i don't understand that at all. it seems that it is only because the act shocks the court. also someone pointed out that with the number of appeals that death row convicts are allowed to, we probably don't save that much money by killing them than putting them behind bars for life. though behind bars for life is somewhat disgusting in a way too. i am not sure it is really necessary for anyone, maybe it is, who knows.

Quote:

Obama talked a good game about drug policy but look at whats taken place with him in office. There are still raids on legitimate clubs in california and growers. Hows that song go "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". And i believe thats the Who and i really hate their music but thats a different subject




yeah remember when marijuana legalisation was on an internet poll and he laughed about it? in most of people's mind the whole change thing was exactly an end to politician bullshit like that, and discussing issues. maybe no western democracies will ever be ready for something like that , and people say we should be happy not to live in dictatorships. what good it is to live in a free society when our ideas are never allowed to be discussed by mainstream official without demonization no matter how high the polls can get in favor of legalisation. journalists are fucking puppets, i think i despise them more than politicians.

politicians can be corrupt and need to attract donations, but i think there's a cap on the amount of donation by person which they violate all the frigging time. but a journalist has to obey his master, after the second time he disobey he's out of a job.
Quote:

we have serious problems in a "free" society...social programs(ie: medicare, medicaid social security, public housing, farm subsidies) are not social issues, they are economic ones. we can say it is compassionate to help people who are in need and it is right to do that and charity is an important part of life; but taking money by force(if you dont pay your taxes, you will go to jail) is not compassion it is theft, and it is wrong. 




this is where i disagree, you may argue that when you work you enter a contract and both are consenting adult. you also say that you steal people through taxes, but i reply that corporation steal people of a part of the worth of their labour. sure they are consenting, except one is forced to work or starve, especially when you want to abolish social security, the other can employ someone else, especially in the 1800s capitalism where there was a surabondance of workers available they even employed woman and children in a time where it was heavily taboo for a woman to work. in fact this is what capitalism did, it destroyed traditional societies. i am not arguing that woman should not work, i am arguing that in the conditions that this work was done and the risk associated with it, at least the one traditionally taking care of the children could have been safe in such a society, problem is of course, the husband dieing, and the woman now has to beg,prostitute herself or find a new husband.

there was alot of jobs, but unions were cracked down upon,through diverse means including violence and were often rightly accused to be communist. of course i may be exagerating about the worst part of capitalism, but i don't see why we would have anything different nowdays if it wasn't for unions and the evil communist putting pressure on western government to show that workers in a capitalist world can live much better than in communist ones. what happened is that most of the 1800s conditions are now in the third world. it works with our theory. we are called labour aristocracy. i actually argued that we had an interests into waging wars in foreign countries to make us profit from it, but someone else somewhat convinced me that the main antagonism between the workers in the first world and anyone else is mainly the bourgeois, which i conceded that perhaps we have mixed interests.

libertarians are pretty much opposed to war on principles too, so overall they are pretty okay. i wanted to reserve this for the thread about your book, but what do you think for example of a business owner who had government subsidies during all his career, then suddenly a libertarian government is elected and he has no more? he will keep his money and advantage on the market, because he had an unfair advantage for all that time due to collusion of the private and public.


Edited by communeart (07/07/10 02:12 AM)


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Registered: 06/17/10
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12860807 - 07/07/10 09:23 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

many people in heavily unionized places here in the u.s. cannot get jobs...look at detroit and what the unions have done there virtually destroyed the industry of car manufacturing they reap what they sow

your really going to try and lay white supremecy at the feet of the right?  sen. byrd a former grand cyclops of the kkk just recently died-he was a democrat....the left has always used race politics either to scare up support for their candidates or to bat down others....i would argue that the left through their economic policy of government being the head of the household for many in the black community has virtually enslaved it(to the government money) and destroyed the family unit.  basically the left figured if you can beat em enslave em....many prominent people on the left were eugenicists

now i think that white supremecy is wrong but no more wrong than black liberation theology or la raza or any other race based group...but i really dont give a fuck what they do its their business and its their business who they associate with

workers not controlling companies? thank god...most workers dont know how to run a business...and companies don't enslave workers(unless we have bad immigration policy)but the government does...i mean fuck i work for three months just to pay my tax bill what the fuck is that? i have no state income tax thankfully or itd be more, but i pay three months of taxes so some fuck head senator can have an airport that he and three other people use(dem. john murtha whos now dead) or a fucking library named after him(dem byrd whos now dead too but also had like a million public places named after him) corporations are not evil...they need employees and if your good and you work hard you move up and if your not good or you dont like it you quit or get fired...it sucks but thats what happens do something else because you can...technology changes things and sometimes you need to change as well or you get left behind


the fact of the matter is that in history communism(or any authoritarian government) always leads to less freedom or massive death by government....mao, russia, germany, fascism in italy, hugo chavez with the whole shutting down television stations who disagree with him(oliver stone is a massive fucking tool), fidel castro, the ussr....my grandfather was estonian came to the us shortly after ww2 the soviets were pricks so he didn't join them but the nazis during the war...many estonians were forced to join either side(nazi or soviet)...the national socialists(nazis are authoritarians)were fuckheads too so he hid out in germany and ended up joining the american guard and guarding nazi officers awaiting trial...his sister wasn't allowed here...she was sent to canada and is bitter to this day.

shit happens though this country continues to be where most people want to come because your free... and these fucking statists want to make this place more like europe well europe is seeing that you cant tax everyone to death and only work 7 months a year and have cradle to grave coverage by your government(they cant afford it)-- many say that now isnt the time for government run healthcare because its a bad economic time right now and i cant help but think if its not good in a bad economic time, what makes it ok in a good economic time?

sorry this post is rambling too early in the am and gotta get to work peace


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12861760 - 07/07/10 02:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
he's a libertarian, no way he respects obama. i hate how they keep saying the government will control our lives though. the tea party patriots complained that obama wanted to keep the internet free with government intervention. this is a blatant case where the government protects freedom and corporation want to destroy it.




What?  Corporations can't destroy freedom.  Only governments can.  Some freedoms being lost to liberal government bullshit:

http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/07/san_francisco_starts_soda_ban.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16051436/

http://blog.timesunion.com/tablehopping/13889/assemblyman-seeking-to-ban-all-salt-in-restaurant-cooking/

Liberals.


--------------------


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12861771 - 07/07/10 02:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

communeart said:
he's a libertarian, no way he respects obama. i hate how they keep saying the government will control our lives though. the tea party patriots complained that obama wanted to keep the internet free with government intervention. this is a blatant case where the government protects freedom and corporation want to destroy it.




What?  Corporations can't destroy freedom.  Only governments can.


They can influence the government in such a manner that it destroys freedom, though, which is probably (I mean obviously) what he was trying to say.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Poid]
    #12861899 - 07/07/10 03:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So can individual people.  Nonetheless the agency of control is the government.


--------------------


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Offlinelibertarian23
strangeranger
Registered: 06/17/10
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12863130 - 07/07/10 07:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

agreed with zappaisgod....any link between government and corporations is not capitalism....anytime there is a a government/business coalition(think the health insurance bill) you should be worried because government is the enforcement agent(think mandate to buy insurance from private company)....another illustration is whats going on betweenn fedex and ups....fedex does most of its shipping by air and thus is not subject to some union beneficial law that ups is...ups is losing market share to fedex because w/o having to pay its workers union(exceedingly high) wages it can provide cheaper services...i've heard the average ups worker makes like $70000, to deliver fucking packages...anyways ups then instead of fighting an arcane law and paying people what the job is worth decides to lobby congress to include air shipping in the law to raise the competitions overhead to "level" the playing field...what a crock of shit....most large business are fine with regulations because they shut out competition...thats right the little guy that leftist authoritarians love to hold up and coddle gets screwed by the political class coming together with the large corporations...THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM...THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN A STATIST SOCIETY!!!


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12863831 - 07/07/10 10:05 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have to say after reading your post we see things very similarly. Especially what you said about marriage (something I mad a thread about one day). I wish more people had common sense


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12864336 - 07/07/10 11:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

yeah liberty is good....but i think you should really take that phrase off your shit...about the parasites and what not...its not their fault that they have been enslaved and lured into a life of destitution by the political class whos promised to take care of them--not only that but many socio-economic problems(like enslavement to government subsidies) have happened after many generations peoples mothers and grandmothers and great grandmothers have been on welfare so are we really to expect that they would not be on welfare as well...not to mention state and local anti business governments(think tax policy) forcing businesses(think jobs)away from cities and states....and on top of that a judicial system that devestates inner city families...until recently crack(predominantly black) got you ten years minimum fed time for simple possession while powder(predominantly white) got you 5 minimum,taking black people away from their families 5 years longer than whites minimally...whats a single mother to do for those ten years....not to mention white farmers throughout the united states recieving subsidies EVERY YEAR..also think of the number of contractors who bid on contracts to build pointless shit for the government--and i'm not talking about highways..i'm talking about building this library or that library built for this senator or that house memeber...anyways most parasites aren't parisites but people who have been enslaved/brainwashed by politicians and government...so please think deeper into the issue than seeing whats at the surface and blaming your fellow citizens...statism is the problem, politicians are the problem and government is their tool to fleece you...the people they buy to vote for them are victims and are everyday people of a system that is not capitalism contrary to popular belief.
peace


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12866063 - 07/08/10 08:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

many people in heavily unionized places here in the u.s. cannot get jobs...look at detroit and what the unions have done there virtually destroyed the industry of car manufacturing they reap what they sow

your really going to try and lay white supremecy at the feet of the right?  sen. byrd a former grand cyclops of the kkk just recently died-he was a democrat....the left has always used race politics either to scare up support for their candidates or to bat down others....i would argue that the left through their economic policy of government being the head of the household for many in the black community has virtually enslaved it(to the government money) and destroyed the family unit.  basically the left figured if you can beat em enslave em....many prominent people on the left were eugenicists

now i think that white supremecy is wrong but no more wrong than black liberation theology or la raza or any other race based group...but i really dont give a fuck what they do its their business and its their business who they associate with




dude white supremacy can be leftist or rightist but generally the right stands for preserving the institution or traditional society, so it clearly is more often on the right. i didn't want to be a dick about it, i only said ron paul has support from the white supremacist because his ideas match those of white supremacist. nazi's are from the extreme-right there is no doubt about that, the sort of leader cult and roman,spartan empire ideals is without a doubt. you say that many on the left were eugenists this is true, but they were not socialists, else they would oppose what most of the eugenists do, that is sterilize minorities because they thought they were inferior.  saying eugenism is from the left is more or less stupid because spartna society was strongly eugenist.

i don't see how being enslaved to the government destroys the family unit. the extreme-left complain about welfare being a way to enslave and keep people down very often. they blame the capitalist system which cannot give jobs to every member of society.
Quote:

workers not controlling companies? thank god...most workers dont know how to run a business...and companies don't enslave workers(unless we have bad immigration policy)but the government does...i mean fuck i work for three months just to pay my tax bill what the fuck is that? i have no state income tax thankfully or itd be more, but i pay three months of taxes so some fuck head senator can have an airport that he and three other people use(dem. john murtha whos now dead) or a fucking library named after him(dem byrd whos now dead too but also had like a million public places named after him) corporations are not evil...they need employees and if your good and you work hard you move up and if your not good or you dont like it you quit or get fired...it sucks but thats what happens do something else because you can...technology changes things and sometimes you need to change as well or you get left behind



what type of corporation management do you think workers as a whole cannot vote to manage it? choosing who is employed? most of the point of such worker management is to prevent CEO's from giving themselves a large pay rise, those CEO's can also talk to people and put forward their ideas, and at the end people vote. you basicly expect people to vote for working less higher pay. cooperatives function pretty well in my opinion.
Quote:

the fact of the matter is that in history communism(or any authoritarian government) always leads to less freedom or massive death by government....mao, russia, germany, fascism in italy, fidel castro, the ussr....my grandfather was estonian came to the us shortly after ww2 the soviets were pricks so he didn't join them but the nazis during the war...many estonians were forced to join either side(nazi or soviet)...the national socialists(nazis are authoritarians)were fuckheads too so he hid out in germany and ended up joining the american guard and guarding nazi officers awaiting trial...his sister wasn't allowed here...she was sent to canada and is bitter to this day.




italy was not communist at all, and yes those countries lead to shit. but was there less freedom in communist russia than in tsarist russia? oh right economic freedom, a freedom that only the wealthy call freedom because the working class have close to none. what happened in tsarist russia was that the communist movement over there was fighting a dictatorship as opposed to a fake bourgeois democracy, so it was fair game to be more violent, at the begining of the revolution they were lenient on people who later opposed them so they finally opposed any pretentions of being morally better than capitalists, something they should have later on. fidel castro may imprison people for political opinions, but so does the united states. unless you believe that every charges in cuba is planted to justify political persecution and that every charges in the united states isn't.
Quote:

hugo chavez with the whole shutting down television stations who disagree with him(oliver stone is a massive fucking tool)




this is fucking bullshit, the television stations who kept on calling him a psychopathic murderer are still online, they only are 33% of the television network as opposed to being over 50%. you see how fox news treats obama? multiply that by 10, at least fox news never talked about obama's mental wellbeing. of course i am against closing down such news station, but those news station supported a violent coup against chavez, what if fox news supported a nazi-style military coup d'etat in the united states, you think it would still be online? those news network were still online for some time and they could still express their anti-communist rhetoric and claim chavez want to help the FARC in colombia. and there are still channels who do. when corporate capitalist media with a clear interests in overthrowing chavez basicly control almost all the news information in a country, wouldn't you be worried about freedom of speech?
Quote:

hit happens though this country continues to be where most people want to come because your free... and these fucking statists want to make this place more like europe well europe is seeing that you cant tax everyone to death and only work 7 months a year and have cradle to grave coverage by your government(they cant afford it)-- many say that now isnt the time for government run healthcare because its a bad economic time right now and i cant help but think if its not good in a bad economic time, what makes it ok in a good economic time?



canada does just fine with public healthcare, and perhaps there shouldn't be public healthcare but there should be the public option, i can't find any reason to oppose public option personally.

the economic crisis has nothing to do with taxing people to death, it is the lack of regulation of banks who played gamble and who are too big to fail.
Quote:

What?  Corporations can't destroy freedom.  Only governments can.  Some freedoms being lost to liberal government bullshit:



corporations can look at your private information to know what products you like, this is a breach of freedom. corporation can control the internet and decide which content has priority, this is another breach of freedom both government and corporations can destroy freedom, though i agree that it is more often the government in history who did so.
Quote:

.i've heard the average ups worker makes like $70000, to deliver fucking packages...anyways ups then instead of fighting an arcane law and paying people what the job is worth decides to lobby congress to include air shipping in the law to raise the competitions overhead to "level" the playing field...what a crock of shit....most large business are fine with regulations because they shut out competition...thats right the little guy that leftist authoritarians love to hold up and coddle gets screwed by the political class coming together with the large corporations...THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM...THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN A STATIST SOCIETY!!!




capitalism always has regulation, you libertarian just don't understand they would put lead in our children's toy then launch a large media campaign denying there is lead in our children's toy. why do you care about people being paid 70 000$ for delivering packages, i'm not sure about their education or the kind of work they do, but what about 1.1 million per years and more for sitting in an office? with air conditioner. what's unfair is union workers having absurd priviledge and non-union workers being treated like dirt, but when those non-union worker try to form such an union, the corporations sometime close like wal-mart did, or they generally make a dick of themselves and harass the employees who try to unionize the corporation. in poorer countries like colombia 8 union leaders were killed in a row in their attempt to unionize coca-cola plants, would the people of colombia care and stop drinking coke or anyone else in the world? fuck no. this is why i'm very skeptic of a libertarian society where the police force are privatized.
Quote:

not to mention white farmers throughout the united states recieving subsidies EVERY YEAR.



yes and ron paul explained to those farmers that he was opposed to all subsidies but that most of these subsidies are for large corporations. it could be hard to have their support that way but if large corporations no longer have subsidies it still means that small farmers are better off i think.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12866561 - 07/08/10 11:49 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
the extreme-left complain about welfare being a way to enslave and keep people down very often. they blame the capitalist system which cannot give jobs to every member of society.





The left doesn't complain about that.  It is what the left does.

As far as capitalism "giving" people full employment all the time, this is absurd on at least counts.

1.  Capitalism doesn't give anybody anything except freedom.  Sometimes that includes freedom to fail.  At which point you should take the freedom to find something else to do with yourself.  One failure is not a death sentence.

2.  Full employment is neither desirable nor possible outside of a slave state, and by that I mean a fictitious perfectly run Kollektif that assigns each member a task.  Or traditional slavery, of course, with only one Massa.  Best choice for that would be me.


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OfflineAlexD
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12866714 - 07/08/10 12:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nazi's are from the extreme-right there is no doubt about that





http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/index.html

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: AlexD]
    #12867079 - 07/08/10 02:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you.  The kid's ignorance oozes so much raw nonsense it's hard for one person to get to it all.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12867216 - 07/08/10 03:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The left doesn't complain about that.  It is what the left does.

As far as capitalism "giving" people full employment all the time, this is absurd on at least counts.

1.  Capitalism doesn't give anybody anything except freedom.  Sometimes that includes freedom to fail.  At which point you should take the freedom to find something else to do with yourself.  One failure is not a death sentence.

2.  Full employment is neither desirable nor possible outside of a slave state, and by that I mean a fictitious perfectly run Kollektif that assigns each member a task.  Or traditional slavery, of course, with only one Massa.  Best choice for that would be me.




oh come on, giving a job or allowing people to have a job, you know what i meant, it may be because english is not my primary language but you knew what i meant don't be dishonest.

marxism did coerce people in taking jobs that they were educated or most able to do or sometime some jobs were more required than others . i doubt people were beaten up or shot for wanting to do another job, but if the current market encourage people to do certain jobs because of supply and demand i don't see what's wrong with such measures in a communist society to respond to demand.
Quote:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler



they used socialist rhetoric to pretend to be on the side of the working class, they used the color red to get the support of former communist. in reality, small businesses were helped, and large businesses were maintained. there was nothing socialist in germany, except perhaps higher healthcare coverage. actions speaks louder than word.
Quote:

Thank you.  The kid's ignorance oozes so much raw nonsense it's hard for one person to get to it all.



ignorance of what? i would say you are the one who is ignorant, you have no idea how economy works, you have no idea what socialism and think that a system where there is a fuhrer dictating all government policies and talks of inferior ethnic groups can be reconciled with socialists advocating for a world with complete equality of opportunity and rights.

and before you bring up stalin, know that stalin couldn't do much without the party behind him, and nowdays no communist defend him to the death, we defend him when we perceive anti-communist to lie about him but not more.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12867716 - 07/08/10 04:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

The left doesn't complain about that.  It is what the left does.

As far as capitalism "giving" people full employment all the time, this is absurd on at least counts.

1.  Capitalism doesn't give anybody anything except freedom.  Sometimes that includes freedom to fail.  At which point you should take the freedom to find something else to do with yourself.  One failure is not a death sentence.

2.  Full employment is neither desirable nor possible outside of a slave state, and by that I mean a fictitious perfectly run Kollektif that assigns each member a task.  Or traditional slavery, of course, with only one Massa.  Best choice for that would be me.




oh come on, giving a job or allowing people to have a job, you know what i meant, it may be because english is not my primary language but you knew what i meant don't be dishonest.




No, I don't let this thing slide.  I think it permeates thought to the detriment of rationality.  It also presupposes that something even should be given.  Nothing should be given, everything should be earned.  An immensely important intellectual distinction and one that the Left constantly gets snared in
Quote:



marxism did coerce people in taking jobs that they were educated or most able to do or sometime some jobs were more required than others . i doubt people were beaten up or shot for wanting to do another job, but if the current market encourage people to do certain jobs because of supply and demand i don't see what's wrong with such measures in a communist society to respond to demand.




Your understanding of the meaning of coerce is faulty.  Coerce does not mean the same thing as compel.
Quote:


Quote:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler



they used socialist rhetoric to pretend to be on the side of the working class, they used the color red to get the support of former communist. in reality, small businesses were helped, and large businesses were maintained. there was nothing socialist in germany, except perhaps higher healthcare coverage. actions speaks louder than word.



Bullshit.  Just for your edification, fascism IS a form of socialism.  They are both for the good ofthe Kollektif, Komrade.
Quote:




Quote:

Thank you.  The kid's ignorance oozes so much raw nonsense it's hard for one person to get to it all.



ignorance of what? i would say you are the one who is ignorant, you have no idea how economy works, you have no idea what socialism and think that a system where there is a fuhrer dictating all government policies and talks of inferior ethnic groups can be reconciled with socialists advocating for a world with complete equality of opportunity and rights.




Capitalism is the nearest thing we can ever get to equality of opportunity.  The left continues to falsely believe that equality of opportunity should only exist to the extent that it produces an equality of result.  Which is de facto nonsense.  Half of all people are below average.
Quote:



and before you bring up stalin, know that stalin couldn't do much without the party behind him, and nowdays no communist defend him to the death, we defend him when we perceive anti-communist to lie about him but not more.




I had no intention of bringing up Stalin.  But you bringing him up is quite interesting.  Other murderous heroes of the Kollektif mind:
Lenin
Mao
Pol Pot
These are just the three that we know each racked up many millions of dead bodies.  I'm sure there more.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12868428 - 07/08/10 06:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

o, I don't let this thing slide.  I think it permeates thought to the detriment of rationality.  It also presupposes that something even should be given.  Nothing should be given, everything should be earned.  An immensely important intellectual distinction and one that the Left constantly gets snared in




goddamit, i meant taken , excuse my poor inferior french culture for the word having a different connotation. employers frequently say to the man they just hired that they gave him in the job in my language, we are so leftist.
Quote:

your understanding of the meaning of coerce is faulty.  Coerce does not mean the same thing as compel.



yes i didn't know how to say coerce without the violent or force part. sorry about that.
Quote:

Bullshit.  Just for your edification, fascism IS a form of socialism.  They are both for the good ofthe Kollektif, Komrade.
Quote:




every ideology is for the collective. fascism may also means that common good is more important than individual good, collective right more important than individual right. but socialism is the abolition of class based society, the collective ownership of the means of production, there is no way that socialism means collective good or collective right.

nazism rather than fascism may be closer to socialism in rhetoric only, as they say all german are part of the same race but do nothing to abolish class. while fascism maintains class society but want more class mobility.
Quote:

Capitalism is the nearest thing we can ever get to equality of opportunity.  The left continues to falsely believe that equality of opportunity should only exist to the extent that it produces an equality of result.  Which is de facto nonsense.  Half of all people are below average.




you have the right to your opinion on this but nobody wants equality of results, as i said socialism has people being paid 4 time the lowest paid how is that equality of results, and communism is post-scarcity and aims to make certains good as free as possible just like water is to some extent. movies are free for example on the internet and crackdown on it is far ahead, there are ways like buying the dvd or going to the theatre to keep something free yet make money to create other movies.

and for your information, getting laid will always be unequal.
Quote:

I had no intention of bringing up Stalin.  But you bringing him up is quite interesting.  Other murderous heroes of the Kollektif mind:
Lenin
Mao
Pol Pot
These are just the three that we know each racked up many millions of dead bodies.  I'm sure there more.




lenin didn't rack up no millions though he did summarily execute some people, just like the americans during their civil wars. mao's death were due to poor planning of farming policy instead of purges or false trials for treason ( he told peasants to beat a drum to get sparrows in the air until they died of starvation, this was to boost agricultural output, what happened is that those crows didn't eat a certain type of worms which then proceded to ruin a shitload of crops).

as for pol pot, we don't consider him a communist, he may have called himself that but he was an agrarian nutjob, he was also supported by the usa when vietnam attacked cambodia. also china to be fair. the reason was that vietnam used to be the imperialist in this region when it was under colonization .so the war, while it was in response to humanitarian disaster and some border fighting, was to flex their muscle and dominate the area, as shown in history, communist nation don't really back each other as brothers unlike what some anti-communist will tell you. and no, there are none others who racked up millions, but many are still guilty of summary executions,imprisoning dissenters and experimenting with torture . why am i telling you that, i'm giving you ammos right. well i guess the united states does torture too.



Quote:

From 1979 to 1997 he and a remnant of the old Khmer Rouge operated from the border region of Cambodia and Thailand, where they clung to power and United Nations recognition as the rightful government of Cambodia.




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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12868853 - 07/08/10 07:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You may not consider Pol Pot a communist (embarrassed?) but he certainly produced 100% employment.

That bit of business from Lenin that in order to eat you must work is hardly the state of current leftist thought today.  Current leftist thought today is that regardless of what you do you get what you want regardless of what you contribute.


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