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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12692437 - 06/05/10 06:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What point would giving you an example of a present-day politician who espouses classical liberalism have whatsoever? It bears no relevance to the points that have been made so far.

What you said was:

Quote:

I am a Libertarian, and I can tell you it never did, nor does it now have anything to do with the liberal agenda




This is clearly incorrect, as I have shown. What 'liberal' means today has nothing to do with the fact that libertarianism is pretty much a carbon copy of classical liberalism.

Quote:

that never even existed in reality




Are you this dense? No true political or economic belief, whether communism, democracy, or capitalism; has truly existed in reality. All of these beliefs are merely ideas which are used to change the state of affairs at a given point in time. They are IDEAS.

If you think the idea of classical liberalism itself is made up, then you are clearly deluded. What political philosophers do you think inspired the creation of the United States? Hint: it's a political philosophy you say never existed in reality.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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Registered: 05/23/09
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
    #12692628 - 06/05/10 06:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't ask you for a present day example. I asked for an example. I can give you exammples of politicians who reflect my right wing belief system from the past, and from today. You can't because that bullshit you posted has nothing to do with liberals


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Edited by Simplicitry (06/05/10 06:41 PM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
    #12692683 - 06/05/10 06:41 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't care, talking to you further is pointless. We all know what current day liberals stand for wich is much more relevant to the original thread anyways. You can act like I'm thick, and I don't know what I'm talking about, but you made a statement, and the only thing you've been able to back it with is a wikipedia article. If your arguement was stronger you'd be able to back with some facts about Democrats from the past, their voting records, what types of legislations they sponsered, and how this represents a change in the term liberal over the years. But you can't because the only thing you know is you read a wikipedia artle describing liberalism in a more right wing light.

And at the end of it all, it really doesn't matter because at least back to FDR Democrats have been anything but what was described in your article


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleShins
Fun guy
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12692891 - 06/05/10 07:17 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Classical liberal thinkers;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

Quote:

John Locke (pronounced /ˈlɒk/; 29 August 1632 – 28 October 1704), widely known as the Father of Liberalism,[2][3][4]  was an English philosopher and physician  regarded as one of the most influential of Enlightenment thinkers. Considered the first of the British empiricists, he is equally important to social contract theory. His work had a great impact upon the development of epistemology and political philosophy. His writings influenced Voltaire and Rousseau, many Scottish Enlightenment thinkers, as well as the American revolutionaries. His contributions to classical republicanism and liberal theory are reflected in the American Declaration of Independence.[5]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

Quote:

Adam Smith (baptised 16 June 1723 – 17 July 1790 [OS: 5 June 1723 – 17 July 1790]) was a Scottish  moral philosopher and a pioneer of political economics. One of the key figures of the Scottish Enlightenment, Smith is the author of The Theory of Moral Sentiments  and An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. The latter, usually abbreviated as The Wealth of Nations, is considered his magnum opus and the first modern work of economics. Smith is widely cited as the father of modern economics.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill

Quote:

John Stuart Mill (20 May 1806 – 8 May 1873) was a British philosopher and civil servant. An influential contributor to social theory, political theory, and political economy, his conception of liberty justified the freedom of the individual in opposition to unlimited state control.[2]  He was a proponent of utilitarianism, an ethical theory developed by Jeremy Bentham, although his conception of it was very different from Bentham's. Hoping to remedy the problems found in an inductive approach to science, such as confirmation bias, he clearly set forth the premises of falsification as the key component in the scientific method.[3]  Mill was also a Member of Parliament and an important figure in liberal political philosophy.






things changed around 1900 after the federal reserve was created, ww1, and the great depression.  a lot of pivotal stuff happened at the turn of the century.

Quote:

The Great Depression saw a sea change in liberalism, leading to the development of modern liberalism. In the words of Arthur Schlesinger Jr.:

    when the growing complexity of industrial conditions required increasing government intervention in order to assure more equal opportunities, the liberal tradition, faithful to the goal rather than to the dogma, altered its view of the state," and "there emerged the conception of a social welfare state, in which the national government had the express obligation to maintain high levels of employment in the economy, to supervise standards of life and labor, to regulate the methods of business competition, and to establish comprehensive patterns of social security.[10]








I would also like to now note that Classic Conservatism was close the opposite of what it is considered today also. 
classic conservatism has a lot to do with preserving the religious and feudal/monarch systems.  It promoted "common values"  society above the individual, stronger government control,absolute state Aristocratic control, and government market intervention to preserve Aristocratic wealth.



In conclusion Maybe the term is not too relevant any more because some people obviously don't understand the meanings and dvelopments of the terms.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Edited by Shins (06/05/10 07:28 PM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Shins]
    #12693005 - 06/05/10 07:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Classical liberal thinkers;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

Quote:

John Locke (pronounced /ˈlɒk/; 29 August 1632 – 28 October 1704), widely known as the Father of Liberalism,[2][3][4]  was an English philosopher and physician  regarded as one of the most influential of Enlightenment thinkers. Considered the first of the British empiricists, he is equally important to social contract theory. His work had a great impact upon the development of epistemology and political philosophy. His writings influenced Voltaire and Rousseau, many Scottish Enlightenment thinkers, as well as the American revolutionaries. His contributions to classical republicanism and liberal theory are reflected in the American Declaration of Independence.[5]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

Quote:

Adam Smith (baptised 16 June 1723 – 17 July 1790 [OS: 5 June 1723 – 17 July 1790]) was a Scottish  moral philosopher and a pioneer of political economics. One of the key figures of the Scottish Enlightenment, Smith is the author of The Theory of Moral Sentiments  and An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. The latter, usually abbreviated as The Wealth of Nations, is considered his magnum opus and the first modern work of economics. Smith is widely cited as the father of modern economics.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill

Quote:

John Stuart Mill (20 May 1806 – 8 May 1873) was a British philosopher and civil servant. An influential contributor to social theory, political theory, and political economy, his conception of liberty justified the freedom of the individual in opposition to unlimited state control.[2]  He was a proponent of utilitarianism, an ethical theory developed by Jeremy Bentham, although his conception of it was very different from Bentham's. Hoping to remedy the problems found in an inductive approach to science, such as confirmation bias, he clearly set forth the premises of falsification as the key component in the scientific method.[3]  Mill was also a Member of Parliament and an important figure in liberal political philosophy.






things changed around 1900 after the federal reserve was created, ww1, and the great depression.  a lot of pivotal stuff happened at the turn of the century.

Quote:

The Great Depression saw a sea change in liberalism, leading to the development of modern liberalism. In the words of Arthur Schlesinger Jr.:

    when the growing complexity of industrial conditions required increasing government intervention in order to assure more equal opportunities, the liberal tradition, faithful to the goal rather than to the dogma, altered its view of the state," and "there emerged the conception of a social welfare state, in which the national government had the express obligation to maintain high levels of employment in the economy, to supervise standards of life and labor, to regulate the methods of business competition, and to establish comprehensive patterns of social security.[10]








I would also like to now note that Classic Conservatism was close the opposite of what it is considered today also. 
classic conservatism has a lot to do with preserving the religious and feudal/monarch systems.  It promoted "common values"  society above the individual, stronger government control,absolute state Aristocratic control, and government market intervention to preserve Aristocratic wealth.



In conclusion Maybe the term is not too relevant any more because some people obviously don't understand the meanings and dvelopments of the terms.



None of those people are American.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Shins]
    #12693028 - 06/05/10 07:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
I would also like to now note that Classic Conservatism was close the opposite of what it is considered today also. 
classic conservatism has a lot to do with preserving the religious and feudal/monarch systems.  It promoted "common values"  society above the individual, stronger government control,absolute state Aristocratic control, and government market intervention to preserve Aristocratic wealth.



Have a reference?


Quote:

Shins said:
In conclusion Maybe the term is not too relevant any more because some people obviously don't understand the meanings and dvelopments of the terms.



It doesn't matter because regardless of what they used to mean, we all know what they now mean.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture


Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12693910 - 06/05/10 11:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I'm a right wing libertarian, and I don't fall to my knees to give the government my rights in a crisis. In spite of your vulgar generalizations, some of us hold our civil liberties above all else.




What do you think about the Patriot Act?  Or the fact the war has always been the cause of massive government expanision up until recently?

"The fact the war has always been the cause of massive government expanision"

Those are the words of Ron Paul.


Quote:

And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.







--------------------
Trust thyself.


Edited by Prisoner#1 (06/06/10 01:04 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
    #12693961 - 06/05/10 11:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Can't you make a point without flaming someone. FAIL:thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSimplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
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Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
    #12695757 - 06/06/10 08:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
Quote:

I'm a right wing libertarian, and I don't fall to my knees to give the government my rights in a crisis. In spite of your vulgar generalizations, some of us hold our civil liberties above all else.




What do you think about the Patriot Act?  Or the fact the war has always been the cause of massive government expanision up until recently?

"The fact the war has always been the cause of massive government expanision"

Those are the words of Ron Paul.


Quote:

And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.









What do I think of the patriot act? I hate it, and I'm not a Republican.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Registered: 05/17/10
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12697675 - 06/06/10 04:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Cant we all just be libertarian? common sense people.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #12698010 - 06/06/10 05:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Led Zeppelin said:
Cant we all just be libertarian? common sense people.



I would love to have eveyone become a Libertarian, but leftist love their Big Government, walfare, forced health care, and just all around sucking their daily nurishment off Uncle Sams dick way to much for that to ever happen.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12698089 - 06/06/10 06:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If by leftist you mean liberals then all we all have to do is become conservatives and all will be well. Who needs libertarians?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Registered: 05/23/09
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Icelander]
    #12698196 - 06/06/10 06:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If by leftist you mean liberals then all we all have to do is become conservatives and all will be well. Who needs libertarians?



I'm cool with fiscal conservatives, as a matter of fact I consider myself one. I'm not cool with the conservative christian factions of the Republican party though.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12698346 - 06/06/10 07:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm also cool with most fiscal conservative ideas, I'm also cool with some liberal ideas.  I take what I consider good ideas whereever I can find them. And I find them everywhere as long as I can remain open.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Male


Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Icelander]
    #12698392 - 06/06/10 07:23 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

N
Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm also cool with most fiscal conservative ideas, I'm also cool with some liberal ideas.  I take what I consider good ideas whereever I can find them. And I find them everywhere as long as I can remain open.



I support an extremely limited amount of liberal ideas, but that doen't make me closed minded(I'm not saying that your implying that either). For example I'm pro-choice although I myself find abortion immoral on a personal level I would never want to impose that morality on another through legislation. I support gays being able to openly serve in the military. Even though I really don't like gay people, it makes no difference, it has nothing to do with politics and respecting others civil liberties. With that being said, there isn't much else I can say I agree with liberals about. They pretty much stand for everything I am opposed to in all other aspects.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Edited by Simplicitry (06/06/10 10:46 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12698493 - 06/06/10 07:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You don't need to explain this to me. I assumed as much.  Your posts seem generally logical and balanced imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinejustAkid
Member of myCulture


Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Icelander]
    #12699119 - 06/06/10 09:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Can't you make a point without flaming someone. FAIL

You're right, Simplicitry I feel bad, I do apologize.  I'm serious.


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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Offlinelibertarian23
strangeranger
Registered: 06/17/10
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
    #12854254 - 07/06/10 12:44 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

you got a party of big government and bigger government--at least the dems aren't hypocritical and admit they want to control your lives.....the spectrum i would use would be the nolan chart


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Invisibledespisedicon
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Registered: 06/16/06
Posts: 8,360
Loc: Flag
Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12854794 - 07/06/10 03:25 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

libertarian23 said:
you got a party of big government and bigger government--at least the dems aren't hypocritical and admit they want to control your lives.....




This is a joke right?  Or you favor the democrats because ObamaCare is going to pay for your mental disorder treatment or something?


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: despisedicon]
    #12854851 - 07/06/10 03:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

he's a libertarian, no way he respects obama. i hate how they keep saying the government will control our lives though. the tea party patriots complained that obama wanted to keep the internet free with government intervention. this is a blatant case where the government protects freedom and corporation want to destroy it.


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