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Invisiblekake
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Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore?
    #12573222 - 05/16/10 03:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I've long thought Left vs. Right (Liberal vs. Conservative) was the wrong way to look at government policy and ideology in the 21st century.

Can anyone explain to me why Left vs. Right is the lowest common denominator?  It seems to me that big vs. small government matters a whole lot less than the policies of that government... almost to the point where big vs. small doesn't even matter.


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.


Edited by kake (05/16/10 03:59 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is Left vs. Right even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12573254 - 05/16/10 03:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

On nearly any topic debated, coalitions form and after a time of compromise two camps emerge.  I think is this a ubiquitous dynamic of society.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: Is Left vs. Right even appropriate anymore? [Re: DieCommie]
    #12573320 - 05/16/10 03:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I changed the topic to "Liberal vs. Conservative"


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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Offlinetxhc4life
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Re: Is Left vs. Right even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12573397 - 05/16/10 04:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

In my opinion it is the wrong way to look at it. Any size of government always leads to more government. America had a limited government, limited to the constitution.

As soon as you give the state a monopoly over laws no one can stop the growth of government.  When the checks and bounds of the government is controlled by a state monopoly, they become a tool for the state to gain more power. That's how we get to the point where government controls marijuana and other drugs through the interstate commerce clause in the constitution, even if their is no proof of interstate commerce. The ruling class will always find an interpretation that fits their agenda, they call it a living constitution using the supreme court to back up their agenda. Then there is no one to challenge the monopoly of the supreme court because the supreme court is the final ruling.

So my question is, should we have big vs. small government, or none whatsoever?


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12574569 - 05/16/10 07:41 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kake said:
I've long thought Left vs. Right (Liberal vs. Conservative) was the wrong way to look at government policy and ideology in the 21st century.

Can anyone explain to me why Left vs. Right is the lowest common denominator?  It seems to me that big vs. small government matters a whole lot less than the policies of that government... almost to the point where big vs. small doesn't even matter.




Big vs. Small Government may not matter to you, but that's probably cause your a lefty. It matters to me, and a great number of other people.

In the most simple since a bigger government cost more money to operate, but that's only the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the problems with Big Government


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Invisiblekake
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12574892 - 05/16/10 08:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

you're saying a lot but not really saying anything


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake] * 1
    #12575046 - 05/16/10 09:09 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The false dichotomy has always been a method of control.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum."
— Noam Chomsky


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Invisiblekake
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12576433 - 05/17/10 01:25 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That's my suspicion as well.  But in this case, I'm having trouble pinpointing who perpetuates this cycle... or who even benefits from it.


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflineNoxNoctum
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12578746 - 05/17/10 02:46 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Seems to me both parties don't mind big government when they're the ones in power... it's only when they're out that it starts being a problem :laugh:

Personally I'd rather have big government in the form of universal health care like the rest of the industrialized world, rather than the patriot act and massive wars in the middle east, but that's just me.


Edited by NoxNoctum (05/17/10 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: NoxNoctum]
    #12581566 - 05/17/10 10:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

NoxNoctum said:
Seems to me both parties don't mind big government when they're the ones in power... it's only when they're out that it starts being a problem :laugh:

Personally I'd rather have big government in the form of universal health care like the rest of the industrialized world, rather than the patriot act and massive wars in the middle east, but that's just me.





Some of us are against all big government. From the patriot act to the healthcare mess the mindless leftist masses cramed down our throat. What universal healthcare? Do you really think that's what we got?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinedshow
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12581950 - 05/17/10 11:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

About the topic. I would say conservative vs liberal is very appropriate. In fact i would say it is the better way to label whats going on in our politics. Republican versus democrat in my opinion is the wrong way to label it. Maybe years ago it was, but not anymore.. slowly..

Why change something that is great? We are different from all other countries. We have a great system going on. We are the land of the mostly free people compared to many other countries. The land of opportunities. Yet people want to change this why? well the majority dont really. Its the media that portrays change as a good thing. All this media  changes the mindless, and there are many of those people. All the kids are growing up to think liberal=good. This is how our country will no longer be as great. In 20 years this country will be like europe is today. No will, i need the government to change my diaper, and no one will give a shit anyways to do anything about it. brainwash.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12583154 - 05/18/10 02:45 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
The false dichotomy has always been a method of control.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum."
— Noam Chomsky




We need synthesis to go along with thesis and antithesis.  Political duality is for wankers.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinejshaman
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: deCypher]
    #12621737 - 05/24/10 08:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I think the whole conservative/liberal debate is a dead horse.  Neither stick to the original values the parties were based on.

Eg. Conseravatism/Republicans originally stood for small government. Now it's small on the domestic front (ie social programs) but huge in international affairs.  As far as social issues go, conservatists seem to want to control/impose their morality of the country, which imho is big government at its worst.

Liberals/Democrats. originally based their ideology around larger government, more social programs, etc. Which is great for those who need it (wasnt taxation without representation a big issue back in the day?) The Left does tend to stick to their orignal philosophy more as far as expanding social programs, and leveling the distribution of wealth, BUT these guys seem to be more concerned with keeping the government out of peoples private lives (eg. pro choice, gay rights etc.) than conservatists. Which, imho, is small government at its best.  Seems like the wires are crossed somewhere.  Also, i think these guys wimp out far to often by trying ride both sides of the fence and play the "middle" ground, for the sake of votes. Most are afraid of being to radical. 

(edited and transplanted this post from another thread)


--------------------
"Oh and technically speaking I didn't find the bluing pluteus... My mom did! We were out for a walk and she was like "Ooooh loookie!". I was like, "shit...". She also found weilii without realizing it. I'd say the mushrooms want to have a word with her!"


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OfflineGrizzly Adams
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: jshaman]
    #12621853 - 05/24/10 08:49 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Government does not work "Left vs. Right" if anyone tells you otherwise they are ignorant to true political philosophy.

left vs. right is a distraction from government vs. people.


governments roll should ONLY be looked at as a matter of maximizing freedom and prosperity.

YOU have natural rights that no one has vested in you, no document not even the constitution can declare natural rights... these things you are born with... Liberty revolves around the bases of property and property rights.

if you have a right to property, you have a right to your earnings. If you have the right to your earnings which are your property, well hell, shouldn't you have the right to decide what you do with your earnings?!

government is a trick... it isn't even necessary for a normal healthy society. But, it can be used in a useful way. However, when the government starts getting involved in social programs and handouts then it has already defeated its whole purpose in the first place... TO PROTECT YOUR LIBERTY!

Because government does not have anything to give in the first place. They must take it from someone else to give to you! this is grand theft on a massive scale!

NOW THEY OWN A RIGHT TO YOUR LIFE, YOUR LIBERTY, AND YOUR PROSPERITY!


Edited by Grizzly Adams (05/24/10 08:52 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Grizzly Adams]
    #12621897 - 05/24/10 08:57 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I certainly don't own the property I paid for. The govt can take it at any time they deem appropriate.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinesuburbanned
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12629302 - 05/26/10 12:45 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

kake said:
I've long thought Left vs. Right (Liberal vs. Conservative) was the wrong way to look at government policy and ideology in the 21st century.

Can anyone explain to me why Left vs. Right is the lowest common denominator?  It seems to me that big vs. small government matters a whole lot less than the policies of that government... almost to the point where big vs. small doesn't even matter.




Big vs. Small Government may not matter to you, but that's probably cause your a lefty. It matters to me, and a great number of other people.

In the most simple since a bigger government cost more money to operate, but that's only the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the problems with Big Government




We certainly aren't supposed take anybody seriously who has an icon who has Obama's campaign symbol mixed with the Soviet hammer, are we?

Obviously, "Big Government" is dangerous.  Extremely dangerous.  But at the same time, small government doesn't really work.  Chaos ensues when there is no control.  I hate to say it, but if  there wasn't a "Big Government" (as you call it, with the capitol letters and everything), our country would be in ruins.  There are already people starving to death in our country.  There are already people dying of easily cured diseases.  There are already people running around addicted to drugs, robbing, murdering people to get money for more drugs.  If there wasn't a centralized, "Big Government," these problems would run even more rampant.

Capitalism only works when true capitalistic policies are in play.  Socialism only works when true socialist policies are in play.  We are stuck in the middle.  At this point, trying to shift towards a truly capitalistic nation would be deadly.  Look at the deregulation of the banks.  Look what the banks did to our country in return.  We give them all these freedoms that they didn't use to have, and they absolutely destroyed our economy.  Greed is a powerful thing, and in a true capitalistic setting, greed takes over.  Right now, socialist polices such as health care, nationalization of large companies, are what are needed for the country to survive.

I know... you definitely won't agree with this.  But we're still a representative democracy.  We aren't any closer to being "taken over" by "Big Government" than we were 50 years ago, or 100 years ago.  When people feel endangered by the "Big Government" they will vote against it.  Our elections are pretty much split over recent years, with about 45% of the popular vote versus 55% of the popular vote as about the max difference between the two major parties.  "Big Government" is being voted for by the PEOPLE, and if you don't like it, you can leave, you do still have that freedom (although, if "Big Government" keeps gaining power, you may not have that freedom in the future :rolleyes:)


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: suburbanned]
    #12629767 - 05/26/10 02:21 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Liberal = advocate change
Conservative = advocate status quo

how is that not relevant?

this should be republican vs. democrat

and is a product of SMD system, according to Duverger's law


--------------------


Edited by learningtofly (05/26/10 02:21 AM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: suburbanned]
    #12633654 - 05/26/10 08:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
We certainly aren't supposed take anybody seriously who has an icon who has Obama's campaign symbol mixed with the Soviet hammer, are we?





This is certainly hilarious! You ridicule me for putting the Soviet Sickle and Hammer on the American Leftists banner, and then below you go on to praise very communists ideas such as nationalization!:laugh2:

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
Obviously, "Big Government" is dangerous.  Extremely dangerous.  But at the same time, small government doesn't really work.  Chaos ensues when there is no control.  I hate to say it, but if  there wasn't a "Big Government" (as you call it, with the capitol letters and everything), our country would be in ruins.  There are already people starving to death in our country.




To anyone so stupid to starve to death in the land of opportunity I say good riddance. They certainly wouldn't have survived as long in less prosperous parts of the world. I'm just happy they won't be producing anymore useless humans and polluting our gene pool any further.

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
here are already people running around addicted to drugs, robbing, murdering people to get money for more drugs.  If there wasn't a centralized, "Big Government," these problems would run even more rampant.




Oh those poor murdering drug addicts, your right those people deserve to be taken care of. Just for the record public housing like Cabrini Green, or the Robert Taylor Homes(Using my hometown of Chicago as the example) are some of the most violent places in the Chicago. Yet when you go to Chicago neighborhoods were people aren't collecting any social services crime is almost non existent. So, if anything there is a connection between violent crime and people living off the system. Not a connection between crime, and people supporting themselves in free markets.

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
Capitalism only works when true capitalistic policies are in play.  Socialism only works when true socialist policies are in play.  We are stuck in the middle.




Where are true socialist policies working toward prosperity in your world? I certainly don't see it in mine.

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
At this point, trying to shift towards a truly capitalistic nation would be deadly.  Look at the deregulation of the banks.  Look what the banks did to our country in return.  We give them all these freedoms that they didn't use to have, and they absolutely destroyed our economy.  Greed is a powerful thing, and in a true capitalistic setting, greed takes over.  Right now, socialist polices such as health care, nationalization of large companies, are what are needed for the country to survive.




And your dear leader Obama bailed them out with the lower classes tax dollars instead of allowing failed enterprises to fail.

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
I know... you definitely won't agree with this.  But we're still a representative democracy.  We aren't any closer to being "taken over" by "Big Government" than we were 50 years ago, or 100 years ago.  When people feel endangered by the "Big Government" they will vote against it.  Our elections are pretty much split over recent years, with about 45% of the popular vote versus 55% of the popular vote as about the max difference between the two major parties.  "Big Government" is being voted for by the PEOPLE, and if you don't like it, you can leave, you do still have that freedom (although, if "Big Government" keeps gaining power, you may not have that freedom in the future :rolleyes:)




It's funny you started off your post by saying that big Government is dangerous, and here you are saying all kind of great things about it, and how much we need it. Make up your mind.

I will resort to violence before I leave my country. We will just have to see if the American public has had enough of a wake up call this November. You don't seem to realize that productive people like myself who actually pay into the system instead of leaching off of it are getting fed up. I've already started getting rid of all my liquid assets, so for one the government won't be able to track them and tax them anymore, and second so that when inflation ruins our dollar I am going to have things that actually matter; my land, my guns, ammunition, food, and fuel. I am dead set determined to see socialist America bankrupt. I would rather that then to see the leftist succeed at there dream of a welfare state. Obama has succeeded in changing at least one person(me) from a hard working tax paying citizen to someone who will stop at nothing to see his evil plans for America fail.

People who live off the system make me sick. It's like their content off of eating the table scraps of a prosperous country. They are willing to prostitute themselves to corrupt politicians rather then make something better for themselves. Sucking they their daily nourishment out of Uncle Sames dick, and ass rather then actually take care of themselves. It makes me sick.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12634358 - 05/26/10 10:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

It sure looks like these socialist/liberal ideas have done a world of good for Greece, doesn't it?


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: suburbanned]
    #12634385 - 05/26/10 10:37 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
Right now, socialist polices such as health care, nationalization of large companies, are what are needed for the country to survive.




Nationalization is always a power grab by very corrupt, very rich poloticians under the guise of helping poor people


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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