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InvisibleIcelander
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The subtlely of our death anxiety.
    #12530446 - 05/09/10 06:03 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

How does Yamāntaka terminate death?

This question depends upon the meaning ascribed to the term death – but one way in which this ability can be identified is through the enlightening activity of wisdom. The wisdom mind is able to perceive that death has no intrinsic, concrete existence: our understanding of death emerges solely from the conventions of the world. Also, when we achieve the same realisation of Yamantaka - who is a Buddha - then we have transcended death.

There are three types of death spoken of in the Yamāntaka Tantra : Outer death is the regular end of life, which is embodied by Yama, Lord of Death, who resides in the south, seven stories under the earth. The inner death is ignorance of the true nature of non-dual reality. Instinctive habitual grasping and aversion to objectively "real" objects and subjects arises from this ignorance. The secret death is dualistic appearance on the subtlest level of clear light mind and illusory body. With the practice of Yamāntaka one overcomes those types of death and gains immortality as a Buddha.



One must imo be very careful to read between the lines. Therein lies the real story. Those who have ears let them hear.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (05/09/10 06:04 AM)

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12531039 - 05/09/10 10:19 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

:rofl2: overcome death and gain immortality

If they are reaching for immortality then they haven't overcome death at all.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: learningtofly]
    #12531428 - 05/09/10 11:56 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Bingo! IMO death anxiety is inherent in our being and in all the things we create. This includes religion, soul, reincarnation, etc.

Buddhism attempts to deal with death anxiety but as a religion fails. As a psychology within buddhism there is hope of reducing this anxiety.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12531455 - 05/09/10 12:03 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

our understanding of death emerges solely from the conventions of the world.




Weird...
My understanding of death emerged from seeing beings die.
Dealing with death anxiety for me meant, ya know, understanding that that was going to happen to me too; which, all in all, doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me.


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The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:

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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: LSDXM]
    #12531573 - 05/09/10 12:30 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Seven stories below it's all shat out.
Ain't too bad.
It's food soon enough.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #12531587 - 05/09/10 12:33 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I have been a little over half a mile underground and I never saw any lord of death down there


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InvisibleLakefingers
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: learningtofly]
    #12531692 - 05/09/10 12:56 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The Devil hid in a mining shaft in order to test your faith.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Lakefingers]
    #12532834 - 05/09/10 05:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)



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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12536057 - 05/10/10 09:36 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Also, when we achieve the same realization of Yamantaka - who is a Buddha - then we have transcended death.

This part I did not get. When we realize that Yamantaka too is bred from what we are exposed to, we learn to transcend Yamantaka's meaning just as death's meaning? Which is to say, we transcend our own attachments to whatever meaning we ascribe?

p.s. Markos those are incredible...


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12536405 - 05/10/10 11:11 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

So who's Yamantaka?
The only Yamantaka I know is Yamantaka eYe from the band in my signature


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The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: LSDXM]
    #12536407 - 05/10/10 11:12 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i kno someone who's last tame is takahashi and thats close enough


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: LSDXM]
    #12536528 - 05/10/10 11:40 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yamantaka is a wrathful Buddha from the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
A gatekeeper who helps overcome obstacles in reaching enlightenment from the Southern Entrance.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (05/10/10 12:16 PM)

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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12536660 - 05/10/10 12:14 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Oh, sweet


--------------------

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12536694 - 05/10/10 12:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Why is death used as a metaphor for dualistic thinking? It it because death (vs. life) can only exist with dualistic thinking?

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12537560 - 05/10/10 03:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks. The White Tara and Avalokitsvara were from Snow Lion or Tibetan Spirit, but the middle one - Mahakala with [removable] consort Mahakali, was purchased from an old WW II vet who said it had been cluttering up his closet for 41 years. It was black with oxide, which I chose to remove with various chemicals, before lacquering. I talked him down to $65! I saw one on the net, without consort, for thousands, but it wasn't the monetary value that attracted me. This piece stood out of a Florida flea market bric-a-brac show with a rainbow body around its blackened form. I couldn't believe it. Oddly, I inadvertently took a Kalachakra initiation from visiting lamas at Miami-Dade College several years ago. I was hesitant to do so at the time, thinking that I was violating a loyalty to my then-stronger 'Christian' identity. So I never gave the kata to the lama which they handed out to complete the initiation. About the same time, I found the book above the BE HERE NOW which is Wheel of Time Sand Mandala - and all about Kalachakra intiation, of which Mahakala is an integral part.
I just thought I'd insert the pic as a relation to the Yamantaka reference.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #12537698 - 05/10/10 03:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Bingo! IMO death anxiety is inherent in our being and in all the things we create. This includes religion, soul, reincarnation, etc.

Buddhism attempts to deal with death anxiety but as a religion fails. As a psychology within buddhism there is hope of reducing this anxiety.



You can accept the inevitability of your death and have no anxiety about it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12537748 - 05/10/10 03:34 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I can?:cool: When?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12538489 - 05/10/10 05:25 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Aside from filling the void, how are you defining it? Simply by being alive, I inherently must fear death?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: auxiliary]
    #12538643 - 05/10/10 05:49 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Read Ernest Becker's works. His book Denial of Death has convinced many people here over the years. It will do a much better job then I'm willing to do. I've been over this a zillion times and it's a pain explaining this over and over. Read his website and then get back to me if you want a discussion. Or not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12538665 - 05/10/10 05:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12538688 - 05/10/10 05:56 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

alright alright is there any of Becker's work on the internetz?

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Freedom]
    #12538779 - 05/10/10 06:10 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Simply by being alive, I inherently must fear death?

Dunno how you define fear, but the physiological definition says, "yep"


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinecircastes
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12539107 - 05/10/10 06:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Uh if you'd read into Buddhism you'd realise they're talking about death of the illusory ego and rebirth into a plane of immortal archetypes/motifs, or, "the Self." At that point you are no longer operating an individual existence, that has perished, but instead you are the working of the cosmos and all its archetypes/motifs. Read The Hero of A Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell.


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My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Freedom]
    #12539143 - 05/10/10 07:03 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
alright alright is there any of Becker's work on the internetz?




:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12539179 - 05/10/10 07:06 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I can?:cool: When?



Whenever you choose to.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12540160 - 05/10/10 09:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Say's who?:satansmoking: For all you know you don't know shit.:poop::wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12540176 - 05/10/10 09:43 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I can?:cool: When?



Whenever you choose to.




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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: circastes]
    #12540311 - 05/10/10 10:03 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Uh if you'd read into Buddhism you'd realise they're talking about death of the illusory ego and rebirth into a plane of immortal archetypes/motifs, or, "the Self." At that point you are no longer operating an individual existence, that has perished, but instead you are the working of the cosmos and all its archetypes/motifs. Read The Hero of A Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell.





Who was this addressed to?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineLSDXM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12540464 - 05/10/10 10:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

circastes said:
Uh if you'd read into Buddhism you'd realise they're talking about death of the illusory ego and rebirth into a plane of immortal archetypes/motifs, or, "the Self." At that point you are no longer operating an individual existence, that has perished, but instead you are the working of the cosmos and all its archetypes/motifs. Read The Hero of A Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell.





Who was this addressed to?





I'm assuming this was in response to:
Quote:

Buddhism attempts to deal with death anxiety but as a religion fails. As a psychology within buddhism there is hope of reducing this anxiety.




--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: LSDXM]
    #12540679 - 05/10/10 11:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

We're dying!  We're dying!

Help us, someone, quick!  We'll all be gone before too long!

Who speaks for the fear of the dying?  What is the voice of the last despair of a body, lost of its last wind?


What final creak of this dying tree will we hear last, and after, will anyone be there to hear it?

Genuinely speaking, none of us have death anxiety.  That's because we don't even know how to fear death.  We only know how to fear some caricature of what we think of as death.  Don't let Icelander or others convince you of an inborn or extremely natural death anxiety, it simply does not exist.  Fear, depression, and anxiety are totally unmotivated by death itself.  Death is not a force, death cannot act on you to make you feel any different.  If you think death can put fear into you, you will be the force with which it will.

The feeling of dying may be hardly any different than the feeling one has when one lets go of a helium balloon and watches it rise into the sky without hope of ever getting it back.  How you feel about the balloon and losing it determines how it feels to loose it.  You essentially determine all your opinions that create your fears about the world you live in.

Edited by xFrockx (05/10/10 11:01 PM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: xFrockx]
    #12540722 - 05/10/10 11:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

There are very real physiological effects that occur when the brain perceives a threat to your bodily well-being. Unfortunately, it can't protect against time, no matter how hard it tries. Generally speaking, that's what I think of when I think of death anxiety.

No character need be given to death other than the decay of life. And I'm more than cool with anyone removing the words and just looking for the experience.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12541658 - 05/11/10 06:15 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"There are very real physiological effects that occur when the brain perceives a threat to your bodily well-being."

Don't blame the feelings on the brain.  Its an actor in the sequence of events which lead to such feelings, not a causor.

I would wager that what is feared is not death, because the living do not know death.

Edited by xFrockx (05/11/10 06:16 AM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: xFrockx]
    #12541808 - 05/11/10 07:32 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I agree that we can not be sure we fear what comes from death.
But the slow process of decay that can be called dying,
will for sure cause your body to produce low levels of fight/flight to try and counter.

This can be worsened significantly by ignorance and denial.
Deny that you're dying, deny that you're getting older, deny that you're decaying,
and your body (and perhaps the world at large) is going to send the message all the stronger.

Nothing wrong with listening to the messages of a brain fighting decay.
These messages are not an enemy. Not unless you fear them.
And I think a lot of people do fear them.
Which would suggest that a lot of people fear what they mean.
And that is to say, they fear their own death.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12541928 - 05/11/10 08:28 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Permanence is all the personality asks for out of life. :satansmoking:

If you really explore Becker's work in "Denial of Death", you will begin to notice the minutia of our anxieties and how we play them out in culture. In other words the form culture takes reflects our death anxiety.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12541986 - 05/11/10 08:48 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Death isn't the only thing people try to deny.
Any event that is seen as negative can be repressed.
A lot of things are that are unavoidable are "avoided" in extremely ineffective ways.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12541992 - 05/11/10 08:50 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Gotta lay the base before you put on the topping. :tongue:


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #12541998 - 05/11/10 08:53 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Sure, but I find the base to be meaning not death.
Always have, probably always will.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12542041 - 05/11/10 09:07 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Death isn't the only thing people try to deny.
Any event that is seen as negative can be repressed.
A lot of things are that are unavoidable are "avoided" in extremely ineffective ways.




Give me an example and lets see if I can connect it ultimately to our impermanence.:wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12542055 - 05/11/10 09:11 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Hahaha.
I have no doubt you can.
Doesn't make it the answer though.

A Chow's barking is deemed a negative event. The owner makes attempts to repress the barking.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12542276 - 05/11/10 10:23 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Doesn't make it the answer though.

Doesn't make it not the answer either.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12542721 - 05/11/10 12:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.flightfromdeath.com/trailer_high.htm


When I was a stupid high school student trying to 'figure out what to do with my life', the military was an option.

It appealed to me for a very basic reason. When I imagined being a soldier I had to imagine how to deal with whatever fear of death I might have. The way I imagined it was that I would believe that I would die, I would accept and even choose to die on the battlefield. In my mind (and imagination) this was a really appealing prospect because it let go of all tension associated with holding on to life for dear life.

There was also a second reason why the military appealed to me. It was the idea of giving up my individual identity for something greater. With Vietnam as context I could not truly believe the US military was a great force in the world, but the basic idea of truly giving up your self is similar to the above thing of accepting death. In the same way that releasing your hold on life lets go of all the associated stress, releasing your hold on your idea of self lets go of the stress associated with maintaining the sense of self.


So my mind would distinguish these two similar sources of stress. It also seems (from a healthy 28 year old's perspective) the sense of self is more fragile than the physical body. This fragility is a source of stress, and it causes us to constantly tend to our self image.

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Freedom]
    #12542943 - 05/11/10 01:06 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

good observations:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Freedom]
    #12542944 - 05/11/10 01:06 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

the sense of self is more fragile than the physical body.

And if you think your body is your self, that's tied in.
If you think your job is your self, that's tied in.
If you think your thoughts are your self, they too are tied in.

We try to maintain the image of ourselves as best we can.
And since it is ever changing, this can be difficult.
And death is the most threatening prospect to maintaining this illusion.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12542951 - 05/11/10 01:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

yes


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12542983 - 05/11/10 01:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

So what if you strip away all those attachments to identity?
Who are you? Are you dead or alive?


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12543056 - 05/11/10 01:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You can't get rid of your attachments to identity on the instinctual level imo. Other than that you can certainly diminish them.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12543102 - 05/11/10 01:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

There is no need to get rid of instinctual identification if you don't identify with your instincts, is there?

I'm pretty sure I know what you're saying.
That our body/mind will react with or without attachments to things.
And this is totally true.
But do you need to identify with these reactions?


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #12543209 - 05/11/10 01:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle Said:

There is no need to get rid of instinctual identification if you don't identify with your instincts, is there?

I'm pretty sure I know what you're saying.
That our body/mind will react with or without attachments to things.
And this is totally true.
But do you need to identify with these reactions?




Wonder how the body/mind will react with or without attachments to things after brain death but not body death, if such a state exists consciously.


Quote:

Icelander said:
I can?:cool: When?




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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12543300 - 05/11/10 02:14 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
There is no need to get rid of instinctual identification if you don't identify with your instincts, is there?

I'm pretty sure I know what you're saying.
That our body/mind will react with or without attachments to things.
And this is totally true.
But do you need to identify with these reactions?





Well if you mean intellectually identify then no we don't. But to not identify intellectually is a small thing compared to emotional identification and imo emotionally we can never quite get there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12543427 - 05/11/10 02:35 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The trend of non-attachment continues.
Do we need to attach to an emotional identity?
The emotions will happen, but are they you?
Thoughts will happen, but are they you?
Instincts will happen, but are they you?

Do these things happen to you, or are you them?

Questions of control.
We want to be them because then we think we can control them.
We want to be able to control at least our selves.
But do we control any of this?

What happens if you just let go of it all and just watch?
Do you disappear? Does anything stop fulfilling its role?
What can you not let go of? What stands between you and non-existence?


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12543997 - 05/11/10 04:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
There is no need to get rid of instinctual identification if you don't identify with your instincts, is there?

I'm pretty sure I know what you're saying.
That our body/mind will react with or without attachments to things.
And this is totally true.
But do you need to identify with these reactions?





Well if you mean intellectually identify then no we don't. But to not identify intellectually is a small thing compared to emotional identification and imo emotionally we can never quite get there.




I'm reading Stan Grof's The Ultimate Jouney: Consciousness and the Mystery of Death, and he is talking at length about the effectiveness of psychedelic psychotherapy for the terminally ill. He maintains that death anxiety can be relegated to the birth experience - that even though physical birth has been completed, emotional birth (or rebirth) has usually not been completed and anxiety and apprehension are connected to a not-as-yet stage of development.

"When the process of experiential self-exploration reaches the perinatal level, we typically discover that our life thus far has been largely inauthentic in its totality, not just in certain and partial segments. We find, to our astonishment, that our entire life strategy has been misdirected and therefore incapable of providing genuine satisfaction. Our misdirected life strategy has been primarily motivated by factors that we have not adequately processed and integrated: the fear of death and unconscious forces associated with biological birth. In other words, during our biological delivery we completed the process of birth anatomically, but not emotionally." P. 295

But, as Grof goes on to say (in agreement with Kickle):

"Beyond the trauma of birth and death, psychedelic research and experiential psychotherapy have revealed an even deeper source of our dissatisfaction and striving for perfection. The insatiable craving that drives human life is ultimately transpersonal in nature and is best described by Ken Wilber's concept of the 'Atman Project' (Wilber 1980). Our true nature is divine - God, Cosmic Christ, Allah, Buddha, the Tao, Great Spirit. Although the process of creation separates and alienates us from our source and our true identity, our awareness of this fact is never completely lost. The psyche's deepest motivating force on all levels of consciousness evolution is the drive to return to the experience of our divinity. However, the constraining conditions of the consecutive stages of development prevent a full experience of our identity and force us to search for various surrogates that are ultimately inadequate and unsatisfactory." P. 298

The Atman Project was exactly about the 'consolations' of producing progeny, becoming famous (or infamous), acquiring great wealth, and many other surrogates for the realization of Eternal Life. Instead, people foolishly and ignorantly take these side roads as paths to personal immortality - all of which are counterfeits of the One Reality that can finally result in human fulfillment. It's what BE HERE NOW spoke to - the realization of Sat Chit Ananda - the human psychological pole of the human-divine Atman-Brahman equation.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12544350 - 05/11/10 05:15 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah I've read that. While I do believe we as humans get caught up in a mistaken, material search for immortality, using that materialism symbolically to defeat death while remaining completely unaware of this fact for the most part. I have never been convinced no matter what folk like Grof state about us being connected to the "source" other than materially. We share an atomic connection to all material phenomena and that's all I know and that's all Grof can demonstrate. For then were are back to religion and my OP where we have come full circle and are back to our death anxiety striving for an emotional/"spiritual" immortality for the self.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12544381 - 05/11/10 05:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)


What happens if you just let go of it all and just watch?
Do you disappear? Does anything stop fulfilling its role?
What can you not let go of? What stands between you and non-existence?


This is the essence of belief systems such as Buddhism. However I have never personally and have never met another human who can truly accomplish full detachment from the personality structure and that is the reason I consider your question moot. If you are saying however only that the system called human has a programmed machine like quality to it's functioning I would have to agree. Although I don't know how far that goes for sure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12544949 - 05/11/10 06:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I couldn't accept Grof's obsession with birth.

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12545033 - 05/11/10 07:08 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i've been debriefing 8th grader going off to high school, in the context of HIV/AIDS education. Miami is #1 in HIV/AIDS in the nation, and Ft. Lauderdale is #2. There were 736 new HIV cases reported in Dade County Public Schools at the end of 2009, in kids between 13 and 18, so early death is a reality. I have 2 kids, one in 7th and one in 8th who are infected. At any rate, I teach sex ed in the context of whether we want to be human beings or merely human mammals. The latter is characterized by typical mammalian 'rip-n-dip' sex, no bonding, no social context, no morality, no spiritual meaning, just the 4 hypothalamic F's:
Feeding-Fighting-Fleeing-Mating.

Female human mammals pop out babies like other mammals pop pups, and male human mammals posture and fight over females at parties like rams butting horns on a National Geographic show. They leave un-parented babies wherever they go, and brag about it.  I draw parallels between wolf social life and human mammals: marking territory with graffiti instead of urine, barring gold grills instead of canines, joining predatory gangs instead of packs, keeping a low profile when a newbie instead of keeping head lowered in the presence of mature wolf males like a cub, etc. So much for human mammalian existence. Amoral dogs and bitches.

Meanwhile, human beings do 'have' mammalian bodies, but most of the human being has numerous non-material selves:
Physical body - obvious
Social selves - brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, cellists, footballers, etc., etc.
Emotional selves - "I'm mad," "I'm sad," "I'm glad," etc., hundreds and hundreds, and hybrids that kids have not experienced yet (sexual jealousy, birth of planned child, other developmental milestones)

The above physical-social-emotional pretty much characterizes all that adolescents care to see or know about themselves. Their lives are sensory-social-emotional preoccupations, and the higher aspects of beinghood are sorely neglected:

Intellectual self - unconscious and undeveloped
Moral self - primitive Pre-conventional or Conventional (Kohlberg's scheme). Usually interpreted as nothing more than "Thou shalt nots."
Spiritual/Transpersonal self - unconscious and undeveloped
Intuitive self - unconscious and undeveloped
Unconscious
-Personal - sometimes causes emotional disturbances
-Collective - unconscious and undeveloped
Instinctual self - undeveloped and brought to awareness as a function of limbic activity

I use these categories to indicate the different categories of human beinghood which should be in place for their sexuality to develop within. Being wasted and having unprotected sex in Miami with a stranger in a place where HIV, Syphilis, and Chlamydia are epidemic, violates intellect, morality (based on compassion), social mores, and is counter-intuitive and counter instinctual. They have adolescent brain development til age 25, and are running on approximately half a brain at age 13. As you know from past dialogues, I see all of these aspects of human beinghood (and others) as Ken Wilber does, which are not reducible to merely molecular interactions without any rhyme or reason, without morphogenetic fields or Platonic Ideas governing the exquisite communion of systems-within-systems, designed by Intelligence that produces, pervades and purposely promotes molecular forms from a cosmic perspective. Empiricism can merely record the subjective proclamations of countless human beings who have experienced the "further reaches of human nature." Empricism cannot be the frame of reference for inner worlds, only outer worlds of space-time which can be quantified by ruler and scale. It may be your own chosen framework in the face of the impermanence of outer phenomenon, but unlike yourself, I do not choose to identify the All with limited materiality. It ALL becomes increasingly more subtle after the material, and even the material is exceedingly subtle at the quantum level, so mere materiaity is just the place where we as sensory beings are sort of fixated. Move one's "assemblage point" however, and whole types of consciousness appear.

And now, "Lost' is beginning...


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12545501 - 05/11/10 08:25 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

As you know from past dialogues, I see all of these aspects of human beinghood (and others) as Ken Wilber does, which are not reducible to merely molecular interactions without any rhyme or reason

I don't see why not and have stated so many times. An emergent quality of a highly developed brain can fool a biological life form into thinking something extra meaningful is going on. Add death anxiety and you have a potent brew for self aggrandizement.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12545859 - 05/11/10 09:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

What happens if you just let go of it all and just watch?
Do you disappear? Does anything stop fulfilling its role?
What can you not let go of? What stands between you and non-existence?


This is the essence of belief systems such as Buddhism. However I have never personally and have never met another human who can truly accomplish full detachment from the personality structure and that is the reason I consider your question moot. If you are saying however only that the system called human has a programmed machine like quality to it's functioning I would have to agree. Although I don't know how far that goes for sure.




If you identify with your personality, when you look at others and see their personality, are you not likely to see someone who identifies with their personality as well? How can you be sure this is the case, if it's just programming?

If you identify with your biology, that's what you'll see as you. If you look at others and see their biology, you'll also assume that they are identified because they too have a biology in action. But what manifests from that biology is just evolutionary programs, ones that operate with or without identification. How would you determine if an individual is identified with their personality or not?

Isn't the best way to examine those identities yourself?


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12546224 - 05/11/10 10:51 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Wow you certainly lost me somewhere. I have not the fuck idea what you are trying to convey.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12546576 - 05/12/10 12:15 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I have not the fuck idea






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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12546710 - 05/12/10 01:09 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

:rofl:

Probably lost myself in the process as well.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12547126 - 05/12/10 05:43 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
:rofl:

Probably lost myself in the process as well.




I got it. It's about projection onto others, based on our own primary self-identification. Icelander appears to be primarily identified with his physical self. This is undoubtedly a function of his Constitutional Psychology (Sheldon). I am a Meso-Ectomorph with a Cerebrotonic Temperament. I have to work at identifying with my physical body, and dis-identify with with my mind. So I'm gonna project 'mind' as the Foundation of Reality - Huxley's "mind at large.' Icelander is a Mesomorph or an Endo-Mesomrph, more than likely, with a Somatotonic Temperament, or a Viscera-Somatic Temperament. MUCH more earthy in his identification, and more visceral as well. I'm in agreement with Huxley because Huxley was a Cerebrotonic Ectomorph (probably minus the little bit of Mesomorphy that I do have). All of us are bound by our psychophysical constitutions, but in becoming aware of this, we can be motivated to see things from another 'type's' perspective. This is true also for the MBTI model, the Enneagram, or any other good model. William Herbert Sheldon's Constitutional Psychology was pure genius. DeRopp popularized it in his classic book The Master Game, which I highly recommend to those interested in post-60s, early 70s literature on consciousness.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12547163 - 05/12/10 06:02 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

what do you call it when i identify with my minds ability to interact with the physical world through my body, voice, and to a lesser extent my intent.

or more simply put. 

modifying my environment.

doin thangs.


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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12547984 - 05/12/10 10:40 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for that Markos.
I've always thought of you as a gatekeeper for me, just like Ice. 
RGV too

Each of you brings so much insight to this board, and it wouldn't be the same for me without any one of you.

:heart:


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12548040 - 05/12/10 10:51 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
:rofl:

Probably lost myself in the process as well.




I got it. It's about projection onto others, based on our own primary self-identification. Icelander appears to be primarily identified with his physical self. This is undoubtedly a function of his Constitutional Psychology (Sheldon). I am a Meso-Ectomorph with a Cerebrotonic Temperament. I have to work at identifying with my physical body, and dis-identify with with my mind. So I'm gonna project 'mind' as the Foundation of Reality - Huxley's "mind at large.' Icelander is a Mesomorph or an Endo-Mesomrph, more than likely, with a Somatotonic Temperament, or a Viscera-Somatic Temperament. MUCH more earthy in his identification, and more visceral as well. I'm in agreement with Huxley because Huxley was a Cerebrotonic Ectomorph (probably minus the little bit of Mesomorphy that I do have). All of us are bound by our psychophysical constitutions, but in becoming aware of this, we can be motivated to see things from another 'type's' perspective. This is true also for the MBTI model, the Enneagram, or any other good model. William Herbert Sheldon's Constitutional Psychology was pure genius. DeRopp popularized it in his classic book The Master Game, which I highly recommend to those interested in post-60s, early 70s literature on consciousness.





Not really, I spend all my time in my head and have very little contact with my physical self. I have to really work at that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12548111 - 05/12/10 11:06 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Identified in the sense that you think you are your body.
That the body makes you what you are.


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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12548242 - 05/12/10 11:37 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I go where the evidence is.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12548305 - 05/12/10 11:51 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The evidence doesn't necessarily say you are your body though.
I see the same evidence as you yet come to differing conclusions on what it means.


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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12548523 - 05/12/10 12:44 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Reallllllly? And what conclusion do you come to given the physical evidence of brain and body?


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12548615 - 05/12/10 01:01 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That the evidence is the most recent analogy/description for the process that turns light and vibration into a vast series of stim -> response behaviors. And that even without any identification or effort on my part, this process will continue to occur. The words I use to describe it are unimportant.

Which is not to say that willful control of this process doesn't exist.
Merely that one can let go of that control to see what can't be let go of.
Identifying with the controller aspect of the mind (ego, frontal cortex functioning) is no different than identifying with any other thing.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (05/12/10 01:22 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12549410 - 05/12/10 03:11 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Really? I'm incredulous! That would seem quite anomalous!  Is that a result of a physical trauma? :eek:

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: pong]
    #12549421 - 05/12/10 03:14 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"Doing," versus "Being."


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12549429 - 05/12/10 03:15 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Read Ernest Becker's works. His book Denial of Death has convinced many people here over the years. It will do a much better job then I'm willing to do. I've been over this a zillion times and it's a pain explaining this over and over. Read his website and then get back to me if you want a discussion. Or not.




I purchased Becker's book today.

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12549610 - 05/12/10 03:49 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Being is nothing without doing.

:pong:


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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12549633 - 05/12/10 03:54 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Identifying with the controller aspect of the mind (ego, frontal cortex functioning) is no different than identifying with any other thing.

Identifying with it? What exactly does that mean? By using it you identify with it imo whether you like it or not. I do not identify with a bug and then feel I'm a bug.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12549636 - 05/12/10 03:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Read Ernest Becker's works. His book Denial of Death has convinced many people here over the years. It will do a much better job then I'm willing to do. I've been over this a zillion times and it's a pain explaining this over and over. Read his website and then get back to me if you want a discussion. Or not.




I purchased Becker's book today.





Guess I finally wore ya down. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12549783 - 05/12/10 04:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Identifying with the controller aspect of the mind (ego, frontal cortex functioning) is no different than identifying with any other thing.

Identifying with it? What exactly does that mean? By using it you identify with it imo whether you like it or not. I do not identify with a bug and then feel I'm a bug.





Ever read up on cognitive behavioral therapies?
Why are they so effective?

The emphasis is placed on the fact that you are not your thoughts.
But the benefits this offers do not come from stopping thought and rather through the ceasing of identification.
The train of thought that we hop onto (identify with) and it takes us wherever.
Finally, we realize we've been thinking (and completely identified with it) and we're in a whole new territory.
If no identification takes place, the train is never boarded, and we know exactly how we got from point A to point B.

A similar concept applies to the ego.
The ego doesn't stop -- you still make decisions -- they just aren't you.

In the same way that CBT therapists have you monitor your thoughts to see that they aren't reality.
So too does Buddhism teach to monitor what identifications are really you and what identifications are not.

Edited by Kickle (05/12/10 04:39 PM)

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12550069 - 05/12/10 05:02 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
you still make decisions -- they just aren't you.







And the English language hasn't gotten used to this yet :_)

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Kickle]
    #12550135 - 05/12/10 05:11 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Identifying with the controller aspect of the mind (ego, frontal cortex functioning) is no different than identifying with any other thing.

Identifying with it? What exactly does that mean? By using it you identify with it imo whether you like it or not. I do not identify with a bug and then feel I'm a bug.





Ever read up on cognitive behavioral therapies?
Why are they so effective?

The emphasis is placed on the fact that you are not your thoughts.
But the benefits this offers do not come from stopping thought and rather through the ceasing of identification.
The train of thought that we hop onto (identify with) and it takes us wherever.
Finally, we realize we've been thinking (and completely identified with it) and we're in a whole new territory.
If no identification takes place, the train is never boarded, and we know exactly how we got from point A to point B.

A similar concept applies to the ego.
The ego doesn't stop -- you still make decisions -- they just aren't you.

In the same way that CBT therapists have you monitor your thoughts to see that they aren't reality.
So too does Buddhism teach to monitor what identifications are really you and what identifications are not.





Don't find them that effective myself. They are helpful however.

Still it's just altering thoughts not dismissing them. Identifying with a better class of thought if you will. If CBT and Buddhism were really effective there would be enlightened humans all over the place. I never met one however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander] * 1
    #12550140 - 05/12/10 05:12 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe you just weren't looking hard enough.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: deCypher]
    #12550180 - 05/12/10 05:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12556162 - 05/13/10 03:53 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Read Ernest Becker's works. His book Denial of Death has convinced many people here over the years. It will do a much better job then I'm willing to do. I've been over this a zillion times and it's a pain explaining this over and over. Read his website and then get back to me if you want a discussion. Or not.




I purchased Becker's book today.





Guess I finally wore ya down. :lol:




Actually, a few pages further in Grof's book, he also mentioned it as an important book. I'd like to see Becker's take on the same sort of concept that Wilber addressed, but it seemed synchronistic that I should read about it a day after you wrote about it here. I usually follow synchronicities. I'm easy like that.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12556428 - 05/13/10 04:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Death anxiety rocks. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: Icelander]
    #12556932 - 05/13/10 05:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Death anxiety rocks. :thumbup:




Only thing better must be dying itself! Eee Yeahhhh boy!  :thumbup:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The subtlely of our death anxiety. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12557039 - 05/13/10 06:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm counting on it.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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