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OfflineRonoS
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U.S. friendly fire incidents...
    #1251953 - 01/27/03 05:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"In the past few years, U.S. military blunders have become an ever-present feature of news reports from Afghanistan and the former Yugoslavia. With the likelihood of war in Iraq increasing daily, the problem of friendly fire has become even more urgent.


In the aftermath of the Vietnam War, the U.S.feared the political fallout from heavy military casualties and opted for a future of indirect warfare conducted from the air with laser-guided bombs or from the sea by Tomahawk missiles. This decision may have saved U.S. lives, but it resulted in far greater casualties among civilians and friendly troops.


In Kosovo, senior British commanders claimed that the American-led bombing campaign killed three civilians for every Serbian soldier, leaving the NATO commanders in violation of the Geneva Convention. "Smart weapons" proved to be only as smart as the American pilots who fired them, men often subject to abject intelligence work that presented them with faulty targets.


The U.S. military industry has a vested interest in convincing the American people that the sort of wonder weapons they regularly see at the movies actually work in real life. When Mel Gibson or Tom Cruise fires a missile, it picks out the bad guy in the street, leaving crowds of barefoot children happily munching their cheeseburgers. In the real world, there are no such friendly weapons. Some of the vaunted smart weapons used in Kosovo missed that country altogether and landed in Bulgaria.


The friendly-fire incident in Afghanistan that killed four Canadian soldiers may be interpreted as a typical example of excess mission zeal. Major Harry Schmidt appears to justify his decision to bomb unidentified troops on the grounds as self-defence, yet, as expert witnesses have shown, he may have more easily avoided danger. His decision to engage the ground troops could have been a product of his flight-simulation training with its computer-game visuals that encouraged instant aggression and rewarded successful completion of a mission rather than controlled responses to an ever-changing battlefield.


Not that any of this is really new. During the Second World War, U.S. servicemen referred to their own air force as the American Luftwaffe, so often did they bomb their own ground troops. On Aug. 15, 1943, U.S. troops landed in the Aleutians, on the island of Kiska. Through a serious intelligence failure, the American commanders expected to face a fanatical resistance by Japanese troops, even though there were none on the island. The "green" troops had never seen combat before and, by the end of a day of heavy fighting, 28 American servicemen were dead and a further 50 seriously wounded, all victims of their own comrades during gunfights in a thick mist.


The most surprising saga of friendly fire involved the United States in an undeclared war with Switzerland during 1944 and 1945. Bad weather over the mountainous terrain on the Swiss-German border, combined with faulty navigation and pilot error, produced a series of friendly-fire incidents in which American planes dropped their bombs on Swiss territory. To the Swiss, such "attacks" were acts of war, and they fought back. In the space of three days in July of 1944, 23 U.S. bombers were forced to land by Swiss fighters. In October of 1944, U.S. bombers attacked the railway junction at Noirmont, even though Swiss flags were painted on a number of village roofs and visibility was good that day.


President Franklin Roosevelt sent adviser Laughlin Currie to Switzerland to apologize for the continuing violations of Swiss airspace. Currie went to Schaffhausen to lay a wreath on the graves of civilians killed by American bombs on April 1, 1944. But just as he was honouring the dead, U.S. bombers made their most widespread attacks on Swiss territory. Thirteen separate incidents occurred; at Stein-am-Rhein -- only 12 miles from where Currie was making his gesture -- seven civilians were killed. In early March of 1945, six U.S. B-24s dropped 12 tons of explosives on Zurich.


In 1950, during the Korean War, two U.S. pilots bombed a Soviet airfield near Vladivostok. During the U.S. invasion of Grenada in 1983, Americans bombed a lunatic asylum by mistake, killing 21 inmates and wounding hundreds of others.


In the final analysis, it is men who make mistakes, not machines. They do so because of the stress that war imposes, stress that is fundamentally linked with
fear: fear of death and mutilation and, even more, fear of failure and humiliation.


This latter fear, that of failing friends, family and the flag, has caused Americans to shoot first rather than identify a target, or drop bombs rather than return to base with a full bombload."


Written by Geoffrey Regan


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1252174 - 01/27/03 06:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Who cares?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

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The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1252224 - 01/27/03 07:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I would say that the civilians getting killed and their families might care...but I'm glad that it doesn't affect you.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1252260 - 01/27/03 07:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Not really.

Small potatoes


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #1252270 - 01/27/03 07:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Must be nice to have the luxury to not care about human life...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1252360 - 01/27/03 08:23 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, that's the ticket


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1252421 - 01/27/03 08:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It would be nice if it didn't happen.... but..... shit happens.

To expect it not to is unrealistic.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1252632 - 01/27/03 10:03 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You're right in the aspect that it does happen...it's hard to avoid. My point of contention is that it happens to the U.S. far more so than any other country.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (01/27/03 10:04 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1253180 - 01/27/03 12:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Let's be more accurate here. You don't know it happens to the US more. Do you really think for a minute that Russia or China own up to their mistakes?

It may be that it does happen to the US more, it may not.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinepattern
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1253256 - 01/27/03 12:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> My point of contention is that it happens to the U.S. far more so than any other country.

America likes to see things blow up far more than any other country. :wink: 


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: pattern]
    #1253410 - 01/27/03 01:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You gotta love a good explosion!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1254272 - 01/28/03 06:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

****My point of contention is that it happens to the U.S. far more so than any other country. ****

or so it's reported. Every country that has been involved in a war has had friendly fire incidences..or friendly sword or bow and arrow, etc...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1254474 - 01/28/03 07:23 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Obviously it does happen, but from an article I read recently (sorry, I can't remember the source) it said that that the U.S. has 16 TIMES the amount of friendly fire incidents as any other country...that seems like a pretty big margin to me. I'm not sure what to accredit this to...improper training?..incompetent command?...blood lust attitude?...who knows...but the point is that something needs to change.


--------------------
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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1254503 - 01/28/03 07:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

****that seems like a pretty big margin to me. I'm not sure what to accredit this to...improper training?..incompetent command?...blood lust attitude?...****

Bigger opperations is probably the biggest thing. The hail mary attack on Iraq was the largest in history. Improper training can also be a factor (still the best in the world) icompatent command has a small part to do with it but i refuse to admit nor agree with the US being a bloodlust attitude. That's just a cheap shot.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1254538 - 01/28/03 07:49 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'll ignore the (still the best in the world) comment since that is simply not true..best equipped? without a doubt...I stand by my blood-lust comment though, perhaps the U.S. is not as bad as some (I.E. Isreal or China ) but far worse than others...(I.E...pretty much any other "free" country)


--------------------
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OfflineBavet
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1254718 - 01/28/03 08:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

War exists death exists deal with it


--------------------
"~Dream as if you'll live forever....live as if you'll die today~ James Dean"


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Bavet]
    #1254725 - 01/28/03 08:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thank you captain obvious...stupidity also seems to run rampant.


--------------------
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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1254738 - 01/28/03 08:51 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

****...I stand by my blood-lust comment though, ****

that's a broad statement and perhaps you confuse blood-lust with the ability to kick our enemies ass without blinking? Blood lust basically says that we as americans want to murder.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1254745 - 01/28/03 08:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Blood lust basically says that we as americans want to murder.


That's exactly what I'm saying...
Quote:

the ability to kick our enemies ass without blinking?


your above statement mirrors my point.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (01/28/03 08:54 AM)


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: U.S. friendly fire incidents... [Re: Rono]
    #1254921 - 01/28/03 09:50 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure what to accredit this to...improper training?..incompetent command?...blood lust attitude?...who knows...but the point is that something needs to change.




Its because the US gets involved in 16 times more wars than anyone else..

That and the fact that we have gone to great lengths to take the face to face confrontation out of war.. Most attacks are done from the air and others are done from inside a tank. Actual ground troops have been deruced to snakes hiding in the bushes with laser targeting cannons.

Its not like it used to be with guys actualy shooting each other with their hand held guns.



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