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OfflineMr.Al
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Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,388
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12526305 - 05/08/10 08:41 AM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
This is what happens when a nation encumbered by social welfare implodes.





this is what happens every year in greece, rioting is their way of life, in
fact they have a riot to celebrate the anniversary of riots past





The circumstances are serious though; Greece is on the verge of insolvency.





the circumstances around most of their riots are serious and so was I,
this is the national past time for these people, every year this shit
happens for some reason or another, the often have riots because they
had a riot the year before, the anual even started in the 70's over some
shit with a students union building, so every year they go there and
start a new one






It appears that the basis of the rioting is morons wanting more socialist welfare...

Astroturf rioting?


Why is the U.S. putting up Greece bailout money?

http://dailycaller.com/2010/05/06/u-s-taxpayers-are-helping-finance-greek-bailout/

Edited by Mr.Al (05/08/10 09:23 AM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12527520 - 05/08/10 02:36 PM (14 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:

Why is the U.S. putting up Greece bailout money?




because the US has been all about welfare for decades, it doesnt
matter if we can pay our rent as long as we make everyone else happy

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12527907 - 05/08/10 04:37 PM (14 years, 14 days ago)

They could always make the money back by giving less military aid to fascist dictatorships and faux democracies. In comparison the bailout money to Greece is chump change and worthwhile. Besides, Goldman Sachs is american and ruined Greece's finances and I think they got bailout money from the US as well. Really that money is just money appropriated by the bank who's shady dealings they already bailed out, were it that Sachs didn't fuck with Greece finances they would've had to bail the company out for nearly so much more money anyway.

Frankly I think they should refuse to bail the country out, it should declare international bankruptcy and head the way of Argentina a la "the take". However I suspect the bailout and austerity measures are supposed to be for preventing that anyway.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisiblememes
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: ScavengerType]
    #12530483 - 05/09/10 06:28 AM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Besides, Goldman Sachs is american and ruined Greece's finances and I think they got bailout money from the US as well.




Oh man, I was unaware Goldman Sachs was the finance minister in Greece for the past few decades.  I didnt know the firm generated the country's unsustainable pension policies, or their hoards of useless government offices.

Plesae STFU.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: memes]
    #12530725 - 05/09/10 08:32 AM (14 years, 13 days ago)

Bernanke Says Fed Reviewing Goldman Sachs-Greece Contracts

Quote:

Feb. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said the U.S. central bank is reviewing derivatives contracts arranged between Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and investment banks with Greece.

“We are looking into a number of questions related to Goldman Sachs and other companies and their derivatives arrangements with Greece,” Bernanke said yesterday in testimony before the Senate Banking Committee in Washington.

Bernanke was responding to a question from Senator Christopher Dodd, a Connecticut Democrat, who asked if there should be limits on the use of credit default swaps to prevent “runs against governments.” Greek bonds slid yesterday amid concern the country’s credit ratings may be cut.




I'm sure the country's bloated public sector is a problem, but the debt crisis that is causing the austerity measures that is causing the riots is clearly on the US banks and their funny debt schemes.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: ScavengerType]
    #12530770 - 05/09/10 08:46 AM (14 years, 13 days ago)

No it isn't.  G-S couldn't do anything itself.  It is 100% Greek perfidy.  Follow the money.  Who got the money?  Greece.  G-S got a relatively small fee.  That's it.  Dream on.


--------------------

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12536317 - 05/10/10 10:48 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
No it isn't.  G-S couldn't do anything itself.  It is 100% Greek perfidy.  Follow the money.  Who got the money?  Greece.  G-S got a relatively small fee.  That's it.  Dream on.





You don't know for certain.

There's no way to follow the money at the moment, even Congress doesn't know about the fed's deals with other central banks and nations.


H.R.1207 has 319 cosponsors in Congress and we still do not yet have an up or down vote.

So no zap, we don't have all the information at hand to know where all the money has been going.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12536478 - 05/10/10 11:28 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

You have got to be kidding.  Do you even know what scavenger is talking about?


--------------------

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12536538 - 05/10/10 11:42 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You have got to be kidding.  Do you even know what scavenger is talking about?





Goldman Sachs in new storm over secret deal to mask Greek debts

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1251280/Goldman-Sachs-new-storm-secret-deal-mask-Greek-debts.html#ixzz0nY8CMqP4



This is what we know about U.S. funds for Greece Bailout:


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/we_re_bailing_out_greece_NzQZTSIOLgxboJ6yyOWOpM

What I'm saying is that there may have been funds that we (nor any of our elected officials) know about because the fed can bail out foreign nations with American money without accountability (it is "legal"...)


If we don't know how many dollars are being tossed around we don't know how strong  the dollar actually is.

We don't know...

We should know these things.


The dollar's role as the world's reserve fiat currency allows central banks to utilize it to prop up economies that are in crisis.

This can be done, but at the danger of putting the dollar at risk.

The dollar isn't shorted as much as it should, because of that role.  This causes the problem of the U.S. federal government spending far beyond it's means because the market correction for the dollar's devaluation (because of inflation of dollar supply) is postponed due to the fact that said international bailouts of nations/central banks have been kept under wraps.

Dig?


Can you say "too big to fail?"


But what happens when too big to fail does just that?

Dollar crisis.

Think '71 but a lot worse...

Edited by Mr.Al (05/10/10 11:52 AM)

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OfflineMountrakker
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Redstorm]
    #12536558 - 05/10/10 11:51 AM (14 years, 12 days ago)

yeah,tell me about it, i'm about to leave gr for good! in the past decades all them political scum put their dirty fingers in worker's pension deposits and bought their ferrari and mansions..while generating even more money through scandalous under-the-table negotiations with Goldman Sachs and other international cuties..
now the IMF stepped in 
i ain't paying another euro cent in tax to that shit heads that gamble people's savings!


--------------------
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see. Arthur Schopenhauer

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Mountrakker] * 3
    #12537113 - 05/10/10 01:54 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

You think the problem is big boys raiding pension funds?  What pension funds?  Workers pension deposits in Greece?  They never made any.  The Greek "workers" have been slacking off for decades, maybe centuries.


--------------------

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12537156 - 05/10/10 02:00 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

Good fucking shit, Al.  Your link;

Quote:

The Wall Street giant is claimed to have reaped as much as £192million (oh WOW!) in fees by entering a complex currency transaction in 2001 that helped Athens borrow cash without putting it on the books as a loan.

The so-called 'swap' deal, while permitted under EU rules, helped Greece meet eurozone limits on government borrowing.




Let me highlight that for you even more;


WHILE PERMITTED UNDER EU RULES

So these dingbats have their knickers in a twist because they weren't notified about a perfectly legal deal G-S had with Greece that netted them a relatively small pile of peanuts in fees?

The Euroweenies were in such an all fired rush to unify they decided to allow any old jerk-off in their club just to get members.  And now they're whining that some of the riff-raff really and truly are no account bums?  Spare me.


--------------------

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OfflineMountrakker
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12537366 - 05/10/10 02:32 PM (14 years, 12 days ago)

i dont argue that, i do know that all these transactions and decisions where made in obscurity, the ruling party at the time of entering the single currency was boasting about how great they were in governing the country's finances and the people didnt know shit about what the deal was

indeed there are very few products left for greece to export, and in globalized economies, olive oil, oranges, lemons and lignite are not a very trustworthy source of income. Tourism and services should be encouraged and finally be taken seriously if any chance for recovery in the next 5 years still stands, while the average greek joe has to understand that he will not be granted a loan to get his new SUV, BMW, or Mercedes anymore

people have to realize that they can't live on borrowed money, the bankers set up this scam in an ingenious way and i believe it began in the US

the media are hypnotizing people on consumer products they don't really need

just like a bicycle can't cope with a speeding porsche, greeks do not produce exportable goods like the germans do, and painfully that fact is being realized while pointlessly protesting with banners full of socialist ideology from the 80's


--------------------
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see. Arthur Schopenhauer

Edited by Mountrakker (05/10/10 02:40 PM)

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Mountrakker]
    #12545609 - 05/11/10 08:41 PM (14 years, 10 days ago)

Greece’s Economic Crisis and Popular Uprising
Quote:

MARK WEISBROT: Well, the idea, again, is this internal devaluation process. So, instead of trying to grow your way out of a recession, which we’re trying to do—again, you know, not with a sufficient stimulus, but with some stimulus—they’re trying to actually shrink their way out. So the idea is, they literally shrink the economy and try and push down wages and prices.




Wow... just wow.
:picard:


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12547959 - 05/12/10 10:33 AM (14 years, 10 days ago)

Let me repeat:


The U.S. is bailing out Greece indirectly through the I.M.F., this is what we know.


What none of us know about is any backroom deals that various central banks and nations have with each other.


Again, the U.S. dollar could serve a role in these backroom deals because it is the world reserve fiat currency.

So a shaky Grecian economy can effect the buying power of the dollar.......especially if information about those backroom deals come to light.

Do you know if Goldman Sacs is involved in any of these secret agreements that neither us nor any our elected officials are "allowed" to know about?  No. It may be that they have no further involvement beyond what we currently know.  We would know either way if we audited the fed.  Interesting that Tim Geither used to work for them.  Must be a coincidence  or something.  Does little Timmy support an audit of the fed?  (That's an example of a rhetorical question.) 


Is it any wonder that it is so difficult to Audit the Fed???

Edited by Mr.Al (05/12/10 10:38 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12548054 - 05/12/10 10:53 AM (14 years, 10 days ago)

Why you think a bunch of politicians is a preferred responsible actor in these matters is beyond me.  These are the same people who insisted that Fannie and Freddie were solvent and who embarassed themselves greatly during the Goldman-Sachs hearings with their complete and utter ignorance of financial instruments, including some who actually sit on finance commitees.  I'd rather have the Fed run by gerbils than politicians.

I believe you are going to get a one-time Fed audit.  That passed unanimously.


--------------------

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12553739 - 05/13/10 05:15 AM (14 years, 9 days ago)

The fed is audited in an extremely limited manner.


The information that needs to come out is all the international deals that the fed is involved in.

Things that could involve propping up foreign economies et cetera.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12557504 - 05/13/10 07:29 PM (14 years, 8 days ago)

I have to be frank, what Greece really needs to do is deploy import tariffs to protect targeted domestic industries that it wishes to develop. It would probibly want to also subsidize some critical intelectual development in these fields. This worked for Canada, US, South Korea, Great Brittan, Japan and the list goes on. Most nations who want to build strong export industrial sectors do this.

The austerity measures involve let wages fall by creating massive unemployment. This sounds dumber than normal because the country is on the euro. If it had it's own currency the IMF would tell them to devalue it so that their money would be worth less and real wages could be lowered without trying to trigger unemployment manually. Further many public sector utilities will probibly (haven't heard confirmation) end up being liquidated. These will both massively reduce the GDP of the country (inflation/wage decreases) and it will liquidate assets quickly resulting in a short-term increase in capital (make no mistake every buyer will grossly under-pay) long-term revenues will likely decrease with tax revenues. Historical examples of such practices are Jamacia, Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Indonesia, quite a few African countries and many others whom the IMF has imposed these classically retarded austerity policies.

also, the euro is behaving more like gold than a fiat currency al you should be happy not complaining.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: ScavengerType]
    #12577808 - 05/17/10 08:12 AM (14 years, 5 days ago)

Import tariffs only prop up industry that have been "protected" by government subsidies for years.

Perhaps it would be more intelligent to discern why particular businesses are not profitable/productive?

If other nations are subject to a Grecian tariff this merely serves the interests of Greek Unions and Greek government bureaucrats.  The products and services of the competition are made artificially high.  Greeks (who aren't union or government lazy asses) lose out because they have to pay more for both foreign and domestic products.

Need I remind you folks that trade protectionism was one of the ingredients for the Great Depression?


Also recall that Hoover precipitated massive unemployment with his mandated artificially high wage floors.  Many fools talked about Hoover being free market.  This is an example of revisionist history.

What I am pointing out here is that the artificial job market (strong arm tactics and outrageous corruption from government sector and unions) has caused the unemployment issues in Greece.

Inflating the currency to reduce employment?

That is merely attempting to re-inflate economy with monetary shenanigans.


Let unemployment fall by refusing to capitulate to government bureaucrats and unions. 

That would work nicely ("might" be ugly though).

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Riots in Greece [Re: Mr.Al]
    #12588220 - 05/18/10 07:46 PM (14 years, 3 days ago)

well let me see I suppose I could believe your repetition of the typical neo-liberal clap trap about tariffs or I could just run off a list that proves it dead wrong.

Samsung, LG, Toyota and Honda. These companies were developed in countries where extensive periods of tariffs and subsidies were required to develop the industries around these companies and make them world class brands. Samsung just happens to have been the world's largest conglomerate by revenue in 2008, and for it's first 17 years it ran at a loss under protectionist policies that South Korea adopted to keep it's infant industries from being destroyed by more developed foreign competitors.

This same applies to the industrialists that supported protectionism for infant industries in the industrialism of the US/Brittan and even back into the mechanized woolen manufacturers Brittan that date back to it's first innovations into mechanized looms.

I never said that they should put tariffs on everything by any means. Also Keynes wrote a lot about the great depression that you might wish to read.

If Greece wants to pay back it's loans and be a part of the EU it is going to need to do this. Unfortunately it seems that neo-conservatives have been able to re-write history enough that most economists don't understand the historic roles of these mechanisms in forming strong economies.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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