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Gun Control
    #1249814 -

I've been reading some statistics ( GunCite ) that show how much higher gun deaths are in countries where they are legal and where alcohol is readily available. It seems fairly obvious that making guns illegal would reduce gun deaths. However, I also came across the beliefs of the NRA, which are that there will always be deaths (gun related or not).
What are you opinions on this topic?


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All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1249831 -

A more valid point is that there will always be GUNS, legal or illegal.
Prohibiting them will only ensure that they are mainly in the hands of criminals.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1249838 -

Outlaw the guns and only the outlaws will have them.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1249845 -

Here's another site that supports your argument:

http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-switzerland.htm

I'm not opposed to guns, but it appears the argument that guns make people safer is incorrect.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

Edited by GoBlue! (01/26/03 08:21 AM)

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Re: Gun Control [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1249859 -

Guns may not make us safer from crime, but they could make us safer from the Govt.


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Re: Gun Control [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1249861 -

Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder
Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000)
-----------------------------------------------------------
United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42
Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47
Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42
Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07
United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06
Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05
(http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-switzerland.htm )

hmmmm looks a bit different when its put that way.

In the UK where guns are illegal and not even cops can carry them.... 33 deaths.
In the US where people get a tingle from just saying the word gun.... 13,429.

And yes, that is a Bill Hicks joke.


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All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1249942 -

Hand gun murders are but a fraction of all crime. What about assault, robbery, and murder by baseball bat? Overall crime in England is higher than in America, and the crime rate is rising. In America, however, the crime rate is falling.

I don't know about you, but I don't see any advantage in being beaten to death over being shot to death.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1250275 -


Handgun 1992 Handgun Murder
Country Murders Population Rate (per 100,000)
-----------------------------------------------------------
United States 13,429 254,521,000 5.28
Switzerland 97 6,828,023 1.42
Canada 128 27,351,509 0.47
Sweden 36 8,602,157 0.42
Australia 13 17,576,354 0.07
United Kingdom 33 57,797,514 0.06
Japan 60 124,460,481 0.05
(http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/L-switzerland.htm )

hmmmm looks a bit different when its put that way.

In the UK where guns are illegal and not even cops can carry them.... 33 deaths.
In the US where people get a tingle from just saying the word gun.... 13,429.

You should note that in Switzerland, gun ownership is mandatory(everyone is
required to have military training). There is a gun in every house there(granted,
they are not handguns but usually military-style rifles). Yet their gun murder rates
are far below American rates.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Anonymous]
    #1250321 -

I think being allowed to bring guns into a public place is where the problems arise(other than the woods with hunting rifles). Tensions are too high among people when everybody is allowed to or at least do carry guns around in there pockets.

Before someone tells me the about the lady shooting the rapist in the dark alleyway, lets make women go to classes that teach tne the dangers of dark alleyways.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1250516 -


Tensions are too high among people when everybody is allowed to or at least do
carry guns around in there pockets.

Responsible gun owners are not the problem. Granted, I believe that there should
be background checks and a possible mandatory gun safety course when a
person buys a handgun.

Most of the gun violence that occurs is committed by criminals who don't give
a shit about laws anyway.

Before someone tells me the about the lady shooting the rapist in the dark
alleyway, lets make women go to classes that teach tne the dangers of dark
alleyways.

Rapists and muggers don't always choose dark alleyways to attack their
prey. For example, sometimes they commit their crimes in broad daylight in mall
parking lots. People do need to exercise reason when deciding what
situations they put themselves into. But, I don't think it is a wrong thing for
law-abiding people to have access to a tool for defense.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1250527 -

Quote:
Most of the gun violence that occurs is committed by criminals who don't give
a shit about laws anyway.


Wrong. Most gun violence occurs at home in the heat of an argument.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Gun Control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1252011 -

It is true that some gun deaths result from passionate feelings. But, there is no
doubt that a lot of gun deaths also result from the criminal element. I dunno...I think
we need to go statistic searching. Does somebody compile statistics on the
causes of all of the individual gun deaths in America?

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Re: Gun Control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1252719 -

Quote:
Quote:
Most of the gun violence that occurs is committed by criminals who don't give
a shit about laws anyway.


Wrong. Most gun violence occurs at home in the heat of an argument.


Wrong, most gun violence occurs at the hands of governments.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1252892 -

That would perhaps validate the first statement.

The gov's got the best guns too.


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Re: Gun Control [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1253000 -

Yet their gun murder rates

What is the drug gang situation like in Switzerland? Pretty much all the gun deaths in England are related to fights between drug gangs. Ordinary people getting shot are so rare it always makes headline news.

I havn't heard too much about Swiss drug gangs...


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1253127 -

Gun Control is not about crime rates and criminals. It is about being able to actually fight against corrupt powers that would attempt to enslave you.

Think about the constitution and why the framers wanted gun rights in there. They were trying to make sure that the common man would have the ability to check the government if it got out of hand. Even the one they were creating.


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Re: Gun Control [Re: BowlKiller]
    #1253587 -

I don't know if you've realized this, but YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CHANCE IN A GUN BATTLE AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.
Just a thought. Carry on discussion.


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All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1253655 -

Quote:
I don't know if you've realized this, but YOU HAVE NO FUCKING CHANCE IN A GUN BATTLE AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT.


True. And the only way we could overthrow the government through an underground resistance is with foreign aid, in which case those countries would probably give us guns.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1253657 -


What is the drug gang situation like in Switzerland? Pretty much all the gun deaths in England are related to fights between drug gangs. Ordinary people getting shot are so rare it always makes headline news.

I havn't heard too much about Swiss drug gangs...

True. If drugs were legal, they would not be valuable, which means people
would not kill each other in order to control the market. A lot of violence in
the U.S. is drug-related, so it stands to reason that violent crime would go down
if drugs were legalized.



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Re: Gun Control [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1253726 -

They have to jail the people that think for themselves the most (drug users) or if that doesn't work, let them kill each other.
That'll keep em in line.


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All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1254040 -


They have to jail the people that think for themselves the most (drug users)

In my experience, most drug users rarely think about, or do, anything constructive.



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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1254056 -

"...let them kill each other."

I recently read a novel by R. A. Heinlein (Beyond This Horizen) in wich all citizens could choose to go armed or unarmed in public.  Those who choose to walk around armed learn to be very polite as any death due to a conflict between two armed citizens is perfectly leagal.  Anyone choosing to go unarmed wears about themselves some indication of this fact and, while free from atack, is a second class citizen.

This fits perfectly with my own views as it takes care of gun control and survival of the fittest all at the same time.  I think it would be great to see a society in which the individual is responsible for their interactions with others.  Next time you hold the door for someone and they don't thank you :mad:, BLam!  We need some way to kill off the stupid and rude, don't we? :grin: 


--------------------
In a state of anarchy every individual is their own kingdom.

Thou art God (but so am i :wink:)

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Re: Gun Control [Re: BowlKiller]
    #1254294 -

the common man would have the ability to check the government if it got out of hand

Don't you think Bush is a little out of hand? Is there any chance of the people bringing him down?

Can you give me one hypothetical situation where the american people could bring down the military and the government with their handguns? Evolving backed out of it when I pushed him on this.

What about drug users? They are being cruelly persecuted right now, what chance do they have of bringing the government down? Believe me, if I thought people having guns could bring down Bush I'd be all for gun ownership.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Gun Control [Re: BowlKiller]
    #1254412 -

i really really like the mental picture of some NRA members standing in front of a tank shooting at it with handguns.

of course then they'd die, and i don't really like it when people die. but it would make a funny cartoon.


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-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1254591 -

Quote:
Evolving backed out of it when I pushed him on this.


I did not. Your inability to comprehend the nature of possible conflict, strategy, tactics, weaponry and most of all the desire to avoid self incrimination on a public BBS is the problem. Also by implication, it can be said that it is your belief that everyone should just give up and lick the jack boots of their governmental masters, that it is better to live in subjugation than to die a free man.

There are those of us who have the will and desire to stand up for ourselves regardless of what the cowards among us think. We will not be dissuaded by those who tremble while yellow liquid flows down their spindly legs and they say through quivering lips, "you can't fight the government, they're too powerful." Those who give up before even trying deserve neither freedom nor respect, they are the ones who make all dictatorships possible and are only worthy of contempt. As Henry David Thoreau said "Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves."

If England had a person of your character instead of Winston Churchill, you would be speaking German now and preaching obedience to the Reich, but you would also be held in contempt by those whom you obey. If you prefer to crawl on your belly, that's your perogative. However, don't expect those of us with spines to encourage your timidity by joining you on the stable floor.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1254634 -

So you still can't think of any possible situation? Not even wildly hypothetical?

Could drug users bring down Bush right now with their handguns?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1254655 -

Ronald Reagan was shot with a .22 handgun. It almost brought him down, James Brady was permanently disabled because of the same weapon. If it would have been a .38 special (your favorite gun) James Brady would be dead and possibly Reagan too.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (01/28/03 06:27 AM)

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1254706 -

You people want freedoms but yet you can go to another subject of freedom and want it taken away. Crime has always existed and always will. Before there were guns people just killed in other ways so what! If I wanted to kill someone I would weather or not i had a gun, there are thousands of way to kill someone. Guns don't make crimes people do.


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"~Dream as if you'll live forever....live as if you'll die today~ James Dean"

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Bavet]
    #1254812 -

yes but guns just make it easier


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-
Captain Jack has been hailed as a brilliant scholar, discredited as a brilliant fraud, and mistaken for a much taller man on several occasions.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1254909 -

Quote:
Ronald Reagan was shot with a .22 handgun. It almost brought him down, James Brady was permanently disabled because of the same weapon. If it would have been a .38 special (your favorite gun) James Brady would be dead and possibly Reagan too.


So what? They're not the real people in power. They're just puppets.
Killing the puppet doesn't kill the puppetmaster and in this case it would make him stronger.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1255186 -

Quote:
Quote:
Ronald Reagan was shot with a .22 handgun...


So what? They're not the real people in power. They're just puppets.
Killing the puppet doesn't kill the puppetmaster and in this case it would make him stronger.


Okay, identify 'the real people in power,' 'the puppetmasters,' and we'll get to work on removing them from power.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1255402 -

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ronald Reagan was shot with a .22 handgun...


So what? They're not the real people in power. They're just puppets.
Killing the puppet doesn't kill the puppetmaster and in this case it would make him stronger.


Okay, identify 'the real people in power,' 'the puppetmasters,' and we'll get to work on removing them from power.


Well, in the case of our present government, I'd say Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and John Ashcroft are the ones pulling the strings.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Gun Control [Re: silversoul7]
    #1255427 -

I'd say that you were probably right...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1255560 -

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Ronald Reagan was shot with a .22 handgun...


So what? They're not the real people in power. They're just puppets.
Killing the puppet doesn't kill the puppetmaster and in this case it would make him stronger.


Okay, identify 'the real people in power,' 'the puppetmasters,' and we'll get to work on removing them from power.


Gee I don't know. The corporations that buy them?
You can't take them down.


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Andytweed]
    #1255648 -

Quote:
Gee I don't know. The corporations that buy them?


So you don't know, you're just making things up. People run corporations, if corporations are acting as 'puppet masters' as you believe, that means there are individuals responsible. Who are these people? If you are unable to come up with any proof, on what do you base your assertions? This is not to say that it isn't so, but simple allegations are hardly a rational basis for beliefs.

Quote:
You can't take them down.


Why not? Everyone is subject to the same human frailties, everyone bleeds, everyone dies. What you really mean is that YOU can't, don't know how, or lack the real desire to take them down (of course there's nothing wrong with that).


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1255755 -

You're right I don't know which corporations are buying politicians because it's not public knowledge, but it seems fairly obvious that politicians are getting kickbacks.
How can you go after someone if you don't know who they are.

Quote:
Why not? Everyone is subject to the same human frailties, everyone bleeds, everyone dies. What you really mean is that YOU can't, don't know how, or lack the real desire to take them down (of course there's nothing wrong with that).



So what are you going to do? Hunt down every person that's buying a politician and take him out?


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

Edited by Andytweed (01/28/03 12:45 PM)

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1256355 -

Every thing dieeeeeeeeeeey-eeyiiieeyiiieeyiiesss.... ev ree thing dies.

sorry, you made me think of that song



if we did want to take out the 'puppetmasters' aren't we up against the fuckin U.S. military? complete with brand spankin' new tanks and attack helicopters.

i agree with your views on standing up against tyranny (even if it is a suicide), I believe there are some things worth dying for.
but i think guns are pretty useless in this fight... it's information we would need, which would lead to manpower, right?

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Grav]
    #1256433 -

it's information we would need, which would lead to manpower, right?

Can you say... internet :grin: 


--------------------
All Information posted by me is for entertainment purposes only and should not be attempted in real life!!!

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Grav]
    #1256553 -

if we did want to take out the 'puppetmasters' aren't we up against the fuckin U.S. military? complete with brand spankin' new tanks and attack helicopters.

Yep. .38 specials against heavy machine guns. I don't fancy their chances  :grin:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1256556 -

Ronald Reagan was shot with a .22 handgun.

By some guy who wanted to impress Jodie Foster.

Is this really your best shot? Relying on guys who want to impress Jodie Foster for your liberty? You'd better get ready to spend an awful long time living on your knees son.

Why not?

Don't you think these people are aware that people might want to take them down? Maybe that's why they have armies and cops armed to the teeth? Do you think you and your dad are going to go in blasting and change the world before you are both quickly strapped into the nearest electric chair?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1256767 -

Quote:
Is this really your best shot? Relying on guys who want to impress Jodie Foster for your liberty?


Alex, in case you forgot, you asked, "Could drug users bring down Bush right now with their handguns?" I gave an obvious example of someone using a .22 handgun (less fire power than what you obsess with, the .38 special). If a person can use a .22 to bring down the president, certainly a .38 special could do a better job. But since you have demonstrated no knowledge of firearms, strategy or tactics I don't expect you to understand.

Why do you dwell on .38 specials? Because you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to weapons. You are ignorant. Answer me this, if firearms are so ineffectual, why do you want to see them banned? If they are so harmless, why are you so afraid of them? If they are so useless, why do governments want to take them out of the hands of the private citizen? You fail to see the basic contradictions in your own thought processes.

Quote:
Don't you think these people are aware that people might want to take them down? Maybe that's why they have armies and cops armed to the teeth?


Think Alex, think, even with having armies and cops 'armed to the teeth' as you say, why do they want to ban firearms from the hands of private citizens? Because they are a threat to the designs of an overreaching government. Just because you think it's better to bend over and take it like a compliant well worn prison punk instead of asserting your independence, doesn't mean that that's the preferred way of life for the rest of us.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1257278 -

There are more civilians than there are military. If more and more people wanted to stand against the government it could be done. I am not just talking about handguns vs. military using full auto m16's. I am talking about people who do not want to see the govt. make them slaves. And these people can get rifles and gear. We dont need to have tanks and jets and all that bullshit. And even if I was trying to fight a tank, at least I would be fighting and not just running away and bowing down.

But lets be honest, there are too many people with the opinion that the govt. is all powerful and they dont mind just laying down when dictated to. On the other hand there are people that will fight for thier constitutional rights. I dont know if the govt. could actually ever be overthrown and I am not trying to advocate that. What I am trying to say is that the govt. can remain as long as they do not overstep my freedom.

Now I want you to also understand that TODAY you may think that your government is doing its job and everything. But unless you really look into it you dont see how corrupt and evil your govt. is. Now, if things are allowed to progress then TOMORROW you will most likely change your mind when military men are storming your home, and stealing from you all in the name of "protecting your freedoms".

I mean seriously look at how much the constitution has been broken down. Why do you think there is such a strong push to take guns out of the hands of the public? To stop crime? no. To make sure no one will resist.

I am not talking about things as they are right now. But what I am trying to shed light on is the fact that if you do not give any resistance then things just get worse and worse. And by the time people are carrying your ass off to a concentration camp it is too late. And if you think "oh this is america its not possible" I hope you would just do a search on "police state" and try and find some websites where you can see how the police are being militarized. I mean this is really happening. Its not like I am just a govt. hater and want to try to fight a tank with a handgun. No, your govt. will tearn down your freedoms if no one owns a gun. You have to be able to fight back no matter what.

The most suprising thing about this is the way you seem to be so willing to just lay down even with the history of governments on this earth overrunning the people. Its like you can see the same thing going on, but because its in your country you dont think its possible.

If the govt. where running a "gun sweep" where they go home to home in a neighborhood to steal guns from people, I will fight back and die. Yes, I know I cant defeat 12+ men with full auto, but then again you never know I can put up a good fight. And if you dont think this is going to happen WAKE up!

you could look at some pictures of this on the web site www.infowars.com
Or search for the military operation - "operation urban warrior"

I mean really why would there be such an operation?

I think pictures are pretty convincing proof.

By the way you can order kits and build Ar-15's for abour $650. Thats not too bad, have to be post ban parts though.

I think the constitution is worth fighting for.


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Re: Gun Control [Re: Evolving]
    #1257419 -

Alex, in case you forgot, you asked, "Could drug users bring down Bush right now with their handguns?"

A question you have yet to answer. Seeing as we have had a good 70 years of persecution of drug users clearly this is a point you darn't address.

If a person can use a .22 to bring down the president

Bring down is a teensy bit of an exaggeration. Even if Reagan had been killed the vice-president would have taken over and continued the exact same policies.

Why do you dwell on .38 specials?

Oh, so you could bring down the governement with a .44? Which handgun could you take on the US marines with pray tell.

why do governments want to take them out of the hands of the private citizen?

To stop maniacs walking into schools and blowing away 17 kids?

Because they are a threat to the designs of an overreaching government.

Don't be silly. Bush isn't worried in the slightest about persecuted drug users "taking over" with their handguns. I doubt the thought has ever crossed his mind. That's how much of a "threat" he considers it.

Just because you think it's better to bend over and take it like a compliant well worn prison punk

Actually the drug laws are more relaxed in the UK (where no-one has guns) than they are in the US. It's clear who the ones in prison pink are...


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Gun Control [Re: BowlKiller]
    #1257423 -

I think the constitution is worth fighting for.

You know what would really terrify Bush? Unions. Strong, organised labour willing to strike and destroy his government that way. A lot simpler than trying to take on the marines and far, far more effective than taking potshots at presidents.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Gun Control [Re: Xlea321]
    #1257424 -


Why do you dwell on .38 specials?


Oh, so you could bring down the governement with a .44? Which handgun could
you take on the US marines with pray tell.

Keep in mind that there have been very successful rebel movements who
were hopelessly outgunned by their opponents. But, because of guerilla tactics,
they managed to fight well and sometimes even win.

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