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OfflineRiver77
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Registered: 05/09/09
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Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives?
    #12449599 - 04/24/10 01:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

So over the last 4 months I have been losing 50% of my jars to nothing but bacteria contams. I'm not sure what I am doing wrong with my prep.


MY tek
Rye berries:
First I rinse the rye then, I soak the berries in hot tap water for 6-8 hours. After that  I drain them fill with new water and simmer until I see just a couple grains have burst. Sometimes I dont let any grains burst. Simmering occurs from 45 mins to an hour. I remove them from heat and drain and rinse with warm water. after drained I dump all the grain in a big 11 gal tub and let sit for about an hour to let the surface of the grains dry out to prevent clumping in the jars. During that hour I toss the grains every 10-15 mins to help the evaporation process. I put them in quart jars and and pc at 15 psi for 1 1/2 hours. shut the stove off and let the pc cool over night. I remove the jars(which are still slightly warm in the morning) and let them cool for another hour. 

So I use g2g and MS for my jars. My g2g are fully colonized rye that I usually let consolidate between 1-2 weeks after Full colonization.  I live in a hot climate so I use an air conditioner to keep the heat down during the day but can only keep my room at 79 some days. At night it get cooler and my room will drop down to 68-70.  80% of my g2g form condensation after 2 days and end being contaminated. My MS jars dont form the condensation ever, and maybe might end up losing 5% of these to contams, always bacteria Never foreign molds or fungi.

So what gives? Is it the temperature fluctuations 68-79 F? Is there something I'm missing in my rye prep?  Could it be the rye berries themselves? Its starting to get really frustrating. Ive tried adding coffee to the soaks and simmers I've tried adding gypsum also neither seemed to have a large effect although the coffee did seem to speed things up a bit, it also increased my contam %'s.

Anyways any advice or heckling will be accepted with open arms!!


Many many mahalos!!!!!


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Fine line between fishing, and standing on the shore with a pole in your hand.

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Invisibleanti-flag
one man army


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1,153
Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: River77]
    #12449635 - 04/24/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

With all these bad jars you find,what are you doing with them?
Did you open these bad jars inside your area or dump them inside your house?


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DISCLAIMER * I do not, in any way, shape or form buy, sell, trade, cultivate, manufacture or use ANY illegal or questionable substance. Any and all postings made from my trade name or user name is purely for entertainment purposes. Any pictures uploaded under my trade name or user name have been created by artificial means and/or from images gathered from the internet and other sources. ANY STATEMENTS MADE ARE FORMED FROM THEORY AND REGURGITATED FROM SOURCES FOUND ON THE INTERNET AND/OR BOOKS, MEDIA AND FILMS, and should not, in any way, be considered truth

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OfflineRiver77
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: anti-flag]
    #12449717 - 04/24/10 02:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Well the real bad ones I take out to my garage and dump them out. I dont ever open them in my hobby room.  Once in a while before they are showing definite signs of contam Ill crack the lid to take wiff.  The jars that get about 50-75% colonized with mycelium( the rest with bacteria) which makes them technically 100 colonized. I spawn these to out door beds with awesome results!!!  So I still get a little something from these jars at least!!


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Fine line between fishing, and standing on the shore with a pole in your hand.

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Invisibleanti-flag
one man army


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1,153
Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: River77]
    #12449736 - 04/24/10 02:13 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

To be honest everything sounds ok as far as your tek.
Imo you could of dump a few really bad jars and got mold spores on your clothes and tracked them back into your area.

I'm sure others will stop by and help with better advice.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER * I do not, in any way, shape or form buy, sell, trade, cultivate, manufacture or use ANY illegal or questionable substance. Any and all postings made from my trade name or user name is purely for entertainment purposes. Any pictures uploaded under my trade name or user name have been created by artificial means and/or from images gathered from the internet and other sources. ANY STATEMENTS MADE ARE FORMED FROM THEORY AND REGURGITATED FROM SOURCES FOUND ON THE INTERNET AND/OR BOOKS, MEDIA AND FILMS, and should not, in any way, be considered truth

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OfflineRiver77
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Registered: 05/09/09
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: anti-flag]
    #12449750 - 04/24/10 02:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I thought about that except 1 out of every 100 jars of mine that get contam are contamed with something besides bacteria...


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Fine line between fishing, and standing on the shore with a pole in your hand.

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Invisibleanti-flag
one man army


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1,153
Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: River77]
    #12449756 - 04/24/10 02:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Well what is your spores from? lc?


--------------------
DISCLAIMER * I do not, in any way, shape or form buy, sell, trade, cultivate, manufacture or use ANY illegal or questionable substance. Any and all postings made from my trade name or user name is purely for entertainment purposes. Any pictures uploaded under my trade name or user name have been created by artificial means and/or from images gathered from the internet and other sources. ANY STATEMENTS MADE ARE FORMED FROM THEORY AND REGURGITATED FROM SOURCES FOUND ON THE INTERNET AND/OR BOOKS, MEDIA AND FILMS, and should not, in any way, be considered truth

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OfflineRiver77
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: River77]
    #12449763 - 04/24/10 02:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Wanted to add that during my g2g transfers I have tried both bouncing the jars against a tire to bust up the grains before transferring and just scooping them out with a  spoon. neither is better than the other IMO.

No MS from print to syringe to jar. I make every thing myself..


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Fine line between fishing, and standing on the shore with a pole in your hand.

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Invisibleanti-flag
one man army


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 1,153
Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: River77]
    #12449812 - 04/24/10 02:31 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I will pm a link to hamloft.
This is over my head.
Imo I would like it's the mold spores but it just maybe your prep.
Hamloft is really good with what your working with.
Others will also put in there advice.
Sorry I couldn't help.


--------------------
DISCLAIMER * I do not, in any way, shape or form buy, sell, trade, cultivate, manufacture or use ANY illegal or questionable substance. Any and all postings made from my trade name or user name is purely for entertainment purposes. Any pictures uploaded under my trade name or user name have been created by artificial means and/or from images gathered from the internet and other sources. ANY STATEMENTS MADE ARE FORMED FROM THEORY AND REGURGITATED FROM SOURCES FOUND ON THE INTERNET AND/OR BOOKS, MEDIA AND FILMS, and should not, in any way, be considered truth

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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: River77]
    #12449827 - 04/24/10 02:35 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

River77 said:I remove them from heat and drain and rinse with warm water. After drained, I dump all the grain in a big 11 gal tub and let sit for about an hour to let the surface of the grains dry out to prevent clumping in the jars. During that hour I toss the grains every 10-15 mins to help the evaporation process. I put them in quart jars





Here is the problem. You are rinsing the grain with warm water and then draining for only 1 hour. This is not nearly enough drying, especially when you've cooled them by rinsing.

It's almost certainly this excess moisture that is the culprit.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

Edited by anonjon (04/24/10 02:37 PM)

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Registered: 05/08/04
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: anti-flag]
    #12449833 - 04/24/10 02:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

You never mentioned how you go about your G2G transfers? It sounds like the grain is fine, since injections go well..but G2G opens you up to contamination risk.

After a second look, overly wet grain is only going to help bacteria out. I didnt notice you rinse after you simmer..you shouldnt..the steam from them being hot will help to make them dry.

Also, do you incubate?


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"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

Edited by scatmanrav (04/24/10 02:38 PM)

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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: scatmanrav]
    #12449862 - 04/24/10 02:42 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

could very well be that you're transferring from a contaminated jar, but i still think the issue is your grain prep.

If you look at what other people do during that step, you'll see that your drying process is much less. Some things you can do b4 you load are spread them around on newspapers or towels, you can put in a pillow case and shake em around, one guy even sticks the pillow case in the washer and puts it on spin. I'm not fond of this step, so I never rinse the grains after simmer. They dry better when they're still steaming hot.

scatman is a good example, click the grain prep in his sig and you will find:

"Try and keep it spread out as much as possible and don?t mix to quickly..mix then allow it to steam until it stops, then mix more..give it a chance to steam and drain.

Now after about 10 minutes of mixing and steaming to add in verm to make up the rest of the substrate. You only want to add about 1-2 (or 3 or 4 if you want) quarts of DRY verm. I don?t measure it, I just pour until the mix looks right"

He drains when steaming hot and adds dry verm to fix the moisture level.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:

Edited by anonjon (04/24/10 02:46 PM)

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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: anonjon]
    #12449882 - 04/24/10 02:49 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I'm not suggesting theres bacteria in the colonized jars, just that its being introduced from the outsides of the jars/hands/face/air when doing the transfers.

For me, the dont take long to dry 15-20 minutes...but I let them steam in a big strainer..



--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay

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Invisible99BOOMERMAN
The Professional
Male


Registered: 06/21/09
Posts: 539
Loc: USA Flag
Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: River77]
    #12449896 - 04/24/10 02:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I say your grain prep as well.I think you are simmering too long, try 20-30 min tops.And as SCAT said, do not rinse after the simmer.
Bacteria in a grain jar I would say is most commonly due to excess water, or over-simmering (wet/mushy/burst kernels).
Just my opinion though.:shrug:


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Anything posted in this thread is just some well thought out bull-shit,which is completely for entertainment purposes only.
                                     
                                      AMU      "Q&A's  Thread"


INGENIOUS MONO TUB LINER

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Offlineroaddog
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: anonjon]
    #12449937 - 04/24/10 03:06 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I had a similar problem with rye berries. I was buying mine at a feed store, in 50 pound bags. I had allot of contams from the stuff I got from the feed store. I ordered some off line, and had much better results. I think i ordered it from a health food store. The rye berries from the feed store, were not for human consumption. The stuff from the health food store, I believe, is much cleaner. They first batch of jars that i made, with the health food store rye, worked perfect. I ended up feeding the rest of the rye from the feed store, to my chickens. The only pisser is, I only payed $10 a 50 pound bag, at the feed store. The rye off line, is way more expensive, plus shipping.

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OfflineFireWater
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Registered: 04/25/09
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: roaddog]
    #12449970 - 04/24/10 03:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I never dry my WBS. I soak for a couple hours (1-3). I drain the water out, stir in some already soaked VERM, put into my jars and PC them. Over 100 jars and haven't had a contam yet.

So whats with the drying them about?


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_______________________________________________________________________
Chuck Norris will never have a heart attack. His heart isn't nearly foolish enough to attack him.




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OfflineRiver77
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: anonjon]
    #12450124 - 04/24/10 03:59 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

So there is Verm add to the Rye jars? I have a 100% sucess rate when spawing my healthy jars to bulk. My monos have yet to fail. its just the jars that get me.


I think that the rinsing part after the simmer might be problem the more I think about. I cook 8 lb batches, that makes about 14 qt jars(which is what my pc holds) soo its kinda hard to spread over news paper. I'm going to drain smaller batches and maybe go to a longer dry time ,2hrs lets say, and maybe cut my simmer time down. i want to add that during my simmer I dont allow the water to ever boil.

Im going to quit letting them cool over night also. I think i should remove them from the PC as soon as I am able to open it and then let the jars cool after that and knock them up immediately.

Thanks for all the responses.


--------------------
Fine line between fishing, and standing on the shore with a pole in your hand.

Edited by River77 (04/24/10 04:02 PM)

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Invisible99BOOMERMAN
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: FireWater] * 1
    #12450462 - 04/24/10 05:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FireWater said:
I never dry my WBS. I soak for a couple hours (1-3). I drain the water out, stir in some already soaked VERM, put into my jars and PC them. Over 100 jars and haven't had a contam yet.

So whats with the drying them about?



I'll bet you never have had to dry out your grain just because your grain does not have as much moisture content as those who completely hydrated their grain by soaking and simmering.Simmering really allows moisture to penetrate the grain quickly.


--------------------
Anything posted in this thread is just some well thought out bull-shit,which is completely for entertainment purposes only.
                                     
                                      AMU      "Q&A's  Thread"


INGENIOUS MONO TUB LINER

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InvisibleShea25
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: FireWater]
    #12450519 - 04/24/10 05:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

FireWater said:
I never dry my WBS. I soak for a couple hours (1-3). I drain the water out, stir in some already soaked VERM, put into my jars and PC them. Over 100 jars and haven't had a contam yet.

So whats with the drying them about?





all the moisture you want will be on the inside of the grain. we allow the outside to steam off(dry) so you don't run into contam risks and keeps the grains from sticking

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: Shea25]
    #12450729 - 04/24/10 06:18 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Bacteria contamination is caused by. . . .bacteria.  The temp swings don't cause it and being on the wet side doesn't cause it.  The most common cause it the dirty hair, skin, clothes, breath, etc., of the cultivator himself.  If doing g2g, your hands are right next to the mother jar opening and directly over the receiving jar opening.  Be sure to wear surgical gloves, surgical mask, hair net, etc., and wash all surfaces including the jars and lids themselves with alcohol before opening.

In addition, check your filtering method to ensure the filter is on the outside of the jar so it stays dry, and is the correct type.

It really doesn't matter how you prepare the grains, as long as they're fully hydrated, but dry on the surface when you load the jars.  If you made them too wet, you'd have a puddle in the bottom of the jars after sterilizing.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Offlineshroomer17
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Re: Persistant Bacteria Contams.... What gives? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12451411 - 04/24/10 09:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, but you say you're soaking your rye first for 6-8 hours?  Try increasing your soak time to 24 or even 36 hours if you're having problems.  Maybe all the tough bacterial endospores aren't germinating in this short soak time and are surviving your pressure cooking time.  I pretty much always go 24 hours soak and follow RR's method almost to a T, adding verm and gypsum to my rye as its draining/drying.  I just tried some WBS/verm bags for the first time recently and i'm not too impressed with the colonization so far.. i think i'll stick to organic rye w/ verm & gypsum.  Big fan of RR's method, i suggest you check it out

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