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Offlinewiccan_shaman
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Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 45
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
"Cleaning" Cash
    #12419128 - 04/19/10 07:36 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So lets say you have a shitload of cash coming in, aside from a regular income.  You don't want to let it sit in a safe and depreciate, but rather invest it.

How does one go about investing untaxed cash without throwing red flags?

For argument's sake, lets say the amount is something moderately small, between 10-20k a year.

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Anonymous #1

Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: wiccan_shaman]
    #12419185 - 04/19/10 08:09 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

google "money laundering 101"

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Anonymous #2

Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Anonymous #1]
    #12419222 - 04/19/10 08:23 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

What I do is just use the cash for day to day living expensesgroceries gas light bill etc then just deposit my paycheck in the bank and let it build up

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OfflineHumility
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Registered: 10/07/08
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Anonymous #2]
    #12420848 - 04/19/10 02:05 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Lol sounds like a good problem.


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Anonymous #3

Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: wiccan_shaman]
    #12420867 - 04/19/10 02:09 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Bet on all the horses in every race. Statistically proven to only lose at most ten percent of what you make. That in itself is a winner at a small loss.

Keep your receipts/slips.

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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: wiccan_shaman]
    #12421262 - 04/19/10 03:30 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Buy gold?


--------------------
Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #12421624 - 04/19/10 04:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Buying gold isn't a bad idea.  It's not much of an investment at this point though.

10-20K isn't really enough to worry about laundering.

Gambling is a decent way to do it though.


-FF

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Anonymous #4

Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: wiccan_shaman]
    #12421902 - 04/19/10 05:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

wiccan_shaman said:
So lets say you have a shitload of cash coming in, aside from a regular income.  You don't want to let it sit in a safe and depreciate, but rather invest it.

How does one go about investing untaxed cash without throwing red flags?

For argument's sake, lets say the amount is something moderately small, between 10-20k a year.





Don't do it because you are not ready for such ventures for the simple fact that you are asking about fucking money laundering on a psychedelic drug website where the overwhelmingly majority demographic is adolescent and college age mostly middle class kids.

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Offline2859558484
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Anonymous #4]
    #12422176 - 04/19/10 06:19 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

ten or twenty grand a year doesnt even need to be laundered. you could just put it into your bank account.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: 2859558484]
    #12426689 - 04/20/10 01:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Pay taxes on your regular income and spend the cash. What you can't spend easily you could put into silver or gold. With inflation right around the corner that will be a good investment.

In my case, relatives gave me gifts of cash and gold coins before they sadly passed away. When i sell the gold i pay capital gains on the increase in value from when it was given to me and the value i sell it at. Gifts are non taxable but they can go after the giver for gift taxes if it's over 10 or 15k a year but you are not liable. In my case they have a hard time questioning the giver.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Anonymous #5

Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Stonehenge]
    #12427074 - 04/20/10 02:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Bank of America will notify the FBI any time over 2k  (I believe, its quite small regardless) is deposited. It doesn't lead to real investigation but it is reported non the less

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Anonymous #5]
    #12427127 - 04/20/10 02:55 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

10k is the amount that has to be reported but banks are encouraged to report even smaller amounts if they think it might be suspicious. Another thing they can charge someone with is "structuring" a deposit or withdrawal to avoid the reporting requirement. For example, if you had 20k and made 4 deposits of 5k each, that would be considered a felony. But if you made 5k at a time and deposited it right away, that would be ok but expect some investigation.

Depositing around 1k at a time in odd amounts is unlikely to draw any attention. But they will watch for multiple deposits in a short period of time. Having several accounts at different places helps spread out the deposits. Checks are not scrutinized although money orders might be


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Stonehenge]
    #12435505 - 04/22/10 12:01 AM (14 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
For example, if you had 20k and made 4 deposits of 5k each, that would be considered a felony. But if you made 5k at a time and deposited it right away, that would be ok but expect some investigation.






No, depositing 20k in a bank account is not a felony.  The money could be completely legitimate.  Even if you got the money through illegal means, depositing it in a bank is not a crime in itself.  How you got the money, on the other hand, may have been.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: illuminati]
    #12436419 - 04/22/10 07:57 AM (14 years, 30 days ago)

Ill, what i said was correct. Its called money laundering. Evading the reporting requirement for deposits 10k and over is a crime all by itself.

http://blog.pappastax.com/index.php/2009/04/15/dont-structure-your-deposits-to-avoid-cash-reporting/

Quote:

if you break up your $11,000 transaction into two $5,500 deposits, you can get in trouble. Big trouble. A suspicious activity report (SAR) might be issued. The IRS doesn’t get as many of these, and a lot of them are investigated.

Don’t break up your cash transactions into smaller pieces to evade the reporting requirements. One day you might find two armed federal agents at your door, reminding you, “You have the right to remain silent….”




--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Stonehenge]
    #12436924 - 04/22/10 10:20 AM (14 years, 30 days ago)

What you said is not reality Stonehenge.  If they wanted to go after you for it they'd have to prove that you structured it to avoid reporting requirements.

That's nearly impossible to prove since there's a million excuses you can use that are reasonable explanations.

1.  I don't like carrying over 5k because of the danger of getting robbed.

2.  I'm afraid of a bank error so I split things up to avoid potential losses.

3.  My auto/home/renters/etc. insurance only covers thefts up to a certain amount.

4.  I like round numbers under 5 digits for accounting reasons.

5.  My glovebox/backpack/purse/wallet only holds 5k.

6.  I don't like friends/coworkers/husband/wife/banking customers seeing very large transactions.

7.  It takes time for deposits to clear so I don't make them all at once since you never know when you'll need the money.

8.  I received the money on different days.

9.  It was a half up front, half later transaction.

10.  I had to keep part of the money on hand in case of a return/refund.

11.  Etc., etc..


All of those are legitimate reasons to make a structured deposit and none of them are related to avoiding reporting requirements.

The only people I can think of that they could really get with that law are people that are so obviously involved in illegal cash transactions that no jury would buy any of the excuses.  They'd probably also have to have been doing it for a long time or it would have to involve a very, very large amount of money.

In almost all of those situations there would be other far more serious charges and it would be frivolous for them to pursue a structuring case.  I highly doubt they ever try to nail someone for structuring alone.  If the cash is legal then there's no point to structure, so it would almost always be the illegality of the cash that proves the intent for structuring.


-FF

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: illuminati]
    #12437256 - 04/22/10 11:30 AM (14 years, 30 days ago)

"No, depositing 20k in a bank account is not a felony.  The money could be completely legitimate.  Even if you got the money through illegal means, depositing it in a bank is not a crime in itself.  How you got the money, on the other hand, may have been."

You are correct but that is not what i said.

I said

"Another thing they can charge someone with is "structuring" a deposit or withdrawal to avoid the reporting requirement. For example, if you had 20k and made 4 deposits of 5k each, that would be considered a felony."

Do you see the difference? They actually charged limbaugh with felonies for withdrawing cash over a period of time to buy prescription drugs. They said he structured his withdrawal.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Stonehenge]
    #12437767 - 04/22/10 12:46 PM (14 years, 30 days ago)

Yea, I gotcha, I think I may have missed that part when I posted last, I was a little stoned and it was late.  My apologies.

EDIT: I don't think I've ever heard of them charging anyone with structuring a deposit, but it definitely makes sense.  Guess you learn something new every day.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

Edited by illuminati (04/22/10 12:47 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: illuminati]
    #12437918 - 04/22/10 01:05 PM (14 years, 30 days ago)

My ex wife works at a bank. The tellers are trained to "know your customer".

If a regular customer makes weekly deposits of 400.00 (as an example), and all of a sudden starts making deposits for thousands.... this is also supposed to be reported.



Beyond name matching, a key aspect of KYC controls is to monitor transactions of a customer against their recorded profile, history on the customers account(s) and with peers.



All hail BIG BROTHER!


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineGrok
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #12452349 - 04/25/10 03:32 AM (14 years, 27 days ago)

^Woah, that's freaky.

For the amounts mentioned, just do what was suggested. Deposit your normal paycheck and use the cash for everyday expenses, the more 'consumable' the better. This way if anything happens, all your assets can be accounted for legitimately. Also beware of traveling with large amounts of cash. I shit you not they train dogs to smell a lot of cash, and they'll take it off your hands if they find it. Then you have to prove it's legit if you want it back.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Grok]
    #12452618 - 04/25/10 07:28 AM (14 years, 27 days ago)

I've always thought that if I needed to launder money, I could totally do it with my business.  I started a legit LLC for $130 and I do computer repair.  If I had a ton of illegit cash, I could easily make up a ton of fake invoices and just pay tax on it at the end of the year.  No prob.  You could do that with pretty much any type of business that you don't have inventory for.  My understanding is that it's pretty easy and cheap as hell in almost any state to start your own business.  For less than a few hundred bucks, you could have your own money laundering operation. 

All in theory of course, I'm not advocating any of this.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: illuminati]
    #12454218 - 04/25/10 02:39 PM (14 years, 27 days ago)

> I could easily make up a ton of fake invoices and just pay tax on it at the end of the year.

The problem is if they try checking up on any of the invoices.  When they find out the people and places don't exist or didn't pay the invoices they'll know what's up.

The problem is that the piddling amounts we're talking about won't draw any attention, they aren't even large enough to worry about laundering.

When you really need to launder money it's 100's of thousands at least, usually a million or better.  Then it becomes a lot larger problem.  You can't just write up invoices for huge sums, that would draw attention. People also don't pay large bills with cash.


-FF

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Offlinehallucinogenius
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: fastfred]
    #12454293 - 04/25/10 02:54 PM (14 years, 27 days ago)

In the UK you can't deposit anything over £10,000 cash at a time without raising redflags and getting questioned. Unless your putting that much in on a regular basis. I was trained to look out for suspicious transactions when i started my work but forgot most of it.


--------------------
I can't wait for hell, it's going to be warm and all my friends will be there. :satansmoking:

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Offlineilluminati
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: fastfred]
    #12456248 - 04/25/10 08:53 PM (14 years, 27 days ago)

I suppose that's true.  I don't know if they'd be following up on much of it though, as long as you're paying taxes on it, unless they had some reason to think you were laundering. 

For larger sums of money, do you think you could set up a bunch of shell companies whose main purpose is to "purchase" services from your other company?  You could have a bunch of companies who do nothing but move money around between each other.  I bet that would be hard as hell for them to figure out where that money came from.  You'd probably want to have some legit income for each of the businesses, and just filter in illegitimate money as you can.


--------------------
I didn't get turned on I just got turned
I wasn't as aroused as I was concerned
for each one of 'em I've hurt
and every time I've been burned
I've got a lot to teach but even more to learn

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OfflineGrok
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: illuminati]
    #12457807 - 04/26/10 02:06 AM (14 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

illuminati said:

For larger sums of money, do you think you could set up a bunch of shell companies whose main purpose is to "purchase" services from your other company?  You could have a bunch of companies who do nothing but move money around between each other.  I bet that would be hard as hell for them to figure out where that money came from.  You'd probably want to have some legit income for each of the businesses, and just filter in illegitimate money as you can.




A forensic accountant would make short work of rooting out this scam.

Large volume money laundering isn't easy or cheap. I've often thought that part of why drugs are expensive is because the money paid loses value when it changes hands, especially when it piles up. It becomes risky to hold, depreciates naturally, can't be used safely for large purchases, and is expensive and risky to launder. I took an interest in money laundering out of curiosity and read whatever I could find a few years ago. It seems like most of the ideas have been tried, and the authorities are less than ignorant about them. The ones that work, we don't hear about.

The best course IMO is to just keep an operation small and use it to supplant everyday expenses, which frees up your legit income for savings, investment, and large asset purchases. Greed compounds all the risks involved with such operations.

Semi-related story: A few years ago I moved to a new town and was looking for a job. I got referred by another employer I had to go work up at this guy's property, clearing brush. Had no car at the time so I'd get rides from him. Real nice guy, paid generous. Nice house. Nice Cessna. No job or discernible source of income. Frequent out-of-town Cessna trips. It was suspicious as hell but I tend to mind my own business and didn't even pay it much mind. Maybe he inherited everything? Not more than a month or so goes by and I get a call from the guy who referred me. "Don't call or go up there anytime soon." Dude was moving some respectable weight in weed. Wakes up to the goon squad swarming his house one morning. Come to find out he was totally caught up in the money, and had been doing it for years and was complacent. If it's that obvious to someone like me, the end is in sight barring a dollop of luck.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal

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OfflineAmphiprion
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: Grok]
    #12458308 - 04/26/10 06:51 AM (14 years, 26 days ago)

Good post Grok,

What about investing cash into slowly building yourself a legit gourmet shroom operation from the root lvl.

Start out with the basics then slowly build up your equipment inventory, hire your first staff member and start pumping out legit shrooms?

Hmmm.


--------------------
Amphi

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: "Cleaning" Cash [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #12458351 - 04/26/10 07:22 AM (14 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
My ex wife works at a bank. The tellers are trained to "know your customer".

If a regular customer makes weekly deposits of 400.00 (as an example), and all of a sudden starts making deposits for thousands.... this is also supposed to be reported.




and being reported means nothing the vast majority of times, I've deposited
and withdrawn sums in excess of $100k, paperwork was filed and never even
raised an eyebrow... got stopped with $120k and that paperwork saved my butt

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