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noticeofeviction
Roller
Registered: 02/06/10
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: dill705]
#12393896 - 04/14/10 06:24 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
dill705 said:
Oversimplification.
Do tell
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Kickle]
#12393935 - 04/14/10 06:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: 1 isn't greater than 0? Being something is not more than being nothing?
I think it has a basis and is not ridiculous at all.
That's the fundamental equivocation of the argument. There are two definitions of great. The first time Anselm uses it, he means quality. Later, he means quantity. He goes from a subjective scale and then tries to duct tape it onto an objective scale later. If you take it to the logical extreme based on the acceptance that basically Moar God Is Better, then you're lead immediately to Pantheism, because the greatest possible being that one could imagine would have to encompass the whole of the universe and then some. He would have to be the size of or larger than the largest knowable object, the universe.
And that's not where Anselm wanted to go with it, being a Christian and all. That's why he stops dead short of trying to use the logic to deduce any quality of god aside from existence.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: dill705]
#12394746 - 04/14/10 08:43 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
I'm imagining a perfect island in the Atlantic where all inhabitants are happy and there is no suffering.
I asked the concierge to scratch your name off the invite list.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Quote:
1. If I am thinking of the Greatest Being Thinkable
OK, easy one: myself. Next...
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Poid] 1
#12394885 - 04/14/10 09:01 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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New material time!
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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So no more crazybeard?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Envix
Avoidant Disorder
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Poid]
#12395331 - 04/14/10 10:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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-------------------- smack a hoe out this dimension continue my ascension -bhad bhabie rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b
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morrowasted
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Envix]
#12397516 - 04/15/10 10:35 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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the only thing this argument proves is how silly it is try and look for truth using symbolic representations of it
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: morrowasted]
#12398607 - 04/15/10 02:00 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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This argument is bullshit BTW.
Perfect Island rebuttal FTW.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Kickle
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#12398673 - 04/15/10 02:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I dunno about that -- perfect kind of falls into a different category than greatest. You could say "greatest island" but it falls into the same problems of how someone knows they're thinking of the greatest island.
By knowing you're thinking of the greatest island, you're drawing on what is around you. You're thinking of THE greatest island. And in order to be the greatest island, it necessarily has to exist.
You aren't creating anything. It's more of an observation and this argument IMO is describing what that observation would really mean.
It's like picking apart the word Greatest and showing how we never can properly use it.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Kickle]
#12398679 - 04/15/10 02:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: And in order to be the greatest island, it necessarily has to exist.
Just... no. Why?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#12398697 - 04/15/10 02:18 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Because existence is greater than non-existence. His argument is not saying that the thought of the greatest non-existent island would necessarily exist. His argument is that when thinking of the greatest island, it necessarily MUST exist, because thinking of a non-existent island is inherently less great.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Kickle]
#12398730 - 04/15/10 02:25 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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And why is existence greater than non-existence??
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Kickle]
#12398737 - 04/15/10 02:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: 1 isn't greater than 0? Being something is not more than being nothing?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Kickle]
#12398740 - 04/15/10 02:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not necessarily... is an imaginary skyscraper greater than a real ant?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Kickle
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#12398751 - 04/15/10 02:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Not according to Anselm.
I tend to think that such a proposition is up for debate. 0 can be seen as greater than any other number. You try to make any other number overwhelm it, and it's gonna gobble it up like a black hole. Not even light penetrates here. How are we supposed to see it?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Kickle]
#12398757 - 04/15/10 02:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: Not according to Anselm.
Who's Anselm again?
Quote:
Kickle said: I tend to think that such a proposition is up for debate. 0 can be seen as greater than any other number. You try to make any other number overwhelm it, and it's gonna gobble it up like a black hole. Not even light penetrates here.
Right...
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Kickle
Wanderer
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: deCypher]
#12398777 - 04/15/10 02:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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A saint
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Anselm's Ontological Argument [Re: Kickle]
#12398780 - 04/15/10 02:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm sure.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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