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OfflineVoodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Nelly Ville
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228323 - 01/18/03 08:34 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

If my mind created the planet why would I change it. Don't you think it's good? I'm a martyr, a demon, a drug using cult fugure from the 70's, a gay loving, tantra practisioner that likes anarchy in all his doings and thought...and more. :cool:


Edited by Voodoo Doll (01/18/03 08:37 AM)


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: Voodoo Doll]
    #1228327 - 01/18/03 08:38 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

If my mind created the planet why would I change it. Don't you think it's good? I'm a demon, drug using, 70's cult fugure, gay loving, tantra practisioner that likes anarchy in all his doings and thought...and more.

Your mind didn't create the planet. My mind created it. It's me who changes it.  :wink:


 


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Nelly Ville
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228344 - 01/18/03 08:44 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

All great minds think alike :grin:


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: sirreal]
    #1228346 - 01/18/03 08:45 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Serious mental problems can come from taking this to its extreme.I knew a manic schizophrenic who lived in a world created by his own mind. Even back then it seemed to me that he was trying to change the world he lived in by changing his mind. There are certain realities one must face.

I would argue the exact opposite. The problem of a schizophrenic is that he does not know that his world is created by his mind. Knowing this, it would set him free. In Buddhism it's known as "Calling the name of Avalokiteshvara". It is said that, even when you are in hell, remembering the name of the godhead Avalokiteshvara will set you free. Damn, I have to quote zen master John Tarrant again. I have been digging him a lot lately.

"An old-time Zen student, a woman, in California, who has sat for many years, and is a very senior person, told me this wonderful story from Gregory Bateson. One time he gave a talk at Green Gulch Zen Centre, and spoke of a young boy who had psychotic episodes. The boy was schizophrenic and the whole world would close in on him and become terrifying. He would think that people were invading his mind with their thoughts, and trying to programme him through what was on the television, and telling him things to do. So he would spend time in the in-patient ward, and receive medication, and gradually his mind would clear, and they would release him, and he would go home, and get worse, and he would come back to the in-patient ward: there was this cycle. One time he was going home for Thanksgiving dinner, and he really wanted to do better this time, and he talked to his psychotherapist about how to do better. So he went home and he was having dinner, when he noticed that the peas were too green, and the turkey looked just too much like a turkey, because it was thoroughly poisoned, and he knew by the way people were looking at him that they were all wondering whether he was going to catch on to this or whether he was going to eat the turkey. And then he noticed that his mind was doing this. For the first time he noticed that his mind was doing this: he remembered the name of Avalokiteshvara in the midst of hell. He thought, "Oh, my mind is seeing the peas as too green!" and he burst out in ecstatic laughter -- and they carried him away. But still, he understood; he remembered the name. "Thank you for everything; I have nothing to complain of." And it did not matter if the people around him did not understand, because for the first time he remembered the name of Avalokiteshvara."


Edited by Nomad (01/18/03 08:46 AM)


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1228379 - 01/18/03 08:55 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I understand what you are saying.The key being the awareness. Understanding eradicates dilusion.I have never really had anyone to discuss these things with before, so bear with me if I seem a little slow. :grin:


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Nelly Ville
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: sirreal]
    #1228429 - 01/18/03 09:12 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think you understand just fine and you just had your first delicious gulp of Magic


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OfflineViveka
refutation bias
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1228486 - 01/18/03 09:56 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I know what you are referring to, Mr. Scape. I have heard it described as a "reality tunnel". The responses in this thread seem biased again this concept, and i have a feeling it is because of the negative connotation of the word "fictionism". The funny part is, this thread is an excercise in "fictionism". Everyone in here is conjecturing certain possibilities, ie: fictionism is invalid. All of our conclusions depend on the meanings of a symbolic language,especially considering that we are basically just pitting words against each other: true/false, fictionism/science, objectice/subjective, usefull/unusefull, yes/no. By using a symbolic language to seek out a particular truth; in this case "Is fictionism valid", we are answering our own question, since the words we are using cannot possibly do justice to the infinite possiblities. We are merely positing what our symbolic thinking had led us to believe, therefore we have entered a temporary "reality tunnel", in order to further explore this concept.

This becomes especially useful when there are not integrated systems in place to describe certain phenomenon. Look at quantam phsyics for example. Discoveries are being made all the time which pull the rug out from under our current scientific "absolutes". In fact, quantam physics is based on the concept that a phenomenon is directly affected by our observation of it. If this is true, then we are entering a temporary reality tunnel every time we make a scientific observation.


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1229588 - 01/18/03 06:46 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think you are right and wrong, David_Scape.

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Life is but a dream that we are all here dreaming- that's what makes it real!

:wink:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



Edited by Murex (01/18/03 06:47 PM)


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: ALS OB [Re: Murex]
    #1229944 - 01/18/03 09:51 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

this subject is real grey cause i think its real hard to understand. its like the deal with death, once you go you cant come back and tell it how its like, what its like to be ppsychotic is just the same, you can know whats its like to brush the surface but what if you take it all the way? and it hits you completely? whats left then and what is to tell you what it takes to not make that happen. you think you know stuff about y our life and about the world but being the open mind that you are you fall into a whole nother dimension, and what then? what eyes do you have to look back upon the old world and apply it to your new realm of thought. and so your lost, everything has fallen apart. what do you do? sometimes i wonder if it has nothing to do with our "mind" or our "processor" at all, its emotional pain, something deep inside, something gives you pain and it disturbs you and your brain wont let go and it forces you to look at everything till you find it.

, but because everyone thinks your crazy they dont give a shit about trying to understand you, they dont care about trying to force you out of the darkness and into light and love and understanding

all is lost and you let go.

its not you, its the world around you which is driving you crazy,

there arent any straight answers anymore, its all some ad for reality, our routine is just a substituition for life,

and when anyone cant handle it anymore they are judged crazy, they arent in the "real".

so now what do you got left? you have igea infomercials and george forman teaching you how to make hamburgers at home with half the fat.

after all these years this is what we accomplish, this is a smooth ride. did humans ever have a collective point for the future of the human race? did they ever think about the best things for everyone?

no one dreams anymore,

this is what the masses created, what they thought was going to "save humanity"

they live in a box, we look at it but they have the remote and they control the station and can pull you in whenever they want.

i once looked at the world to see what was wrong with it, and now that i can see it, everything is disconnected. everyone in their own private universe

no one dreams anymore cause they live their fantasy in the real world, they think pimped out hondas are the "coollest fucking shit their ever was. jenna jameson is the hottest bitch, damn i love her". yeah thats the dreams and future most people look for. so can anyone say what the point is? no, they cant cause we all know everyone hasnt cared enough about everyone and everything else to make a point towards some common goal that would benefit us all. we live in a constant state of consuming duality

i live my fantasy IN a dream, in this world its all thats left. i have an imagination, but this world we live in doesnt need imagination, it needs silicon and nacho cheese. whether im crazy or not my imagination is still forced into the status quo and all bars still block the path. im skeptic of our world, but i got to believe in something good, something new, cause if i dont ill just be crazy, or ill just be like... everyone else

symbolic materialsm, "yeah, thats right"


--------------------
What?


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1230217 - 01/19/03 03:10 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

awesome rant  :laugh:

thanks 


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Nelly Ville
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1230291 - 01/19/03 04:48 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

peace to you Rant I just woke up so my reply is somewhat incomplete, still you nailed it right there...I need coffee...


Edited by Voodoo Doll (01/19/03 04:54 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1230341 - 01/19/03 05:51 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Zero7a1 is awesome.  He is our Poet Laureate! :wink: 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: ALS OB [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1232034 - 01/19/03 08:00 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Zero7a1: sometimes i wonder if it has nothing to do with our "mind" or our "processor" at all, its emotional pain, something deep inside, something gives you pain and it disturbs you and your brain wont let go and it forces you to look at everything till you find it.

That's a good mindfuck right there.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: ]
    #1239016 - 01/22/03 09:25 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I read the truth thread. All of it. Very big thread. If any one knows of more little gems like that one PLEASE PM ME!!. :smile:

A good answer to your conundrum is found in a thread I created called "Truth?"... The difference is bettween public and private, explained in detail in that thread.

I would use different wording in describing public experiences... A public experience is more a private perceptual experience that is CONSISTENT with others perceptual experiences. Once we've agreed they are consistent (and once I assume that you are alive like i am, whose ideas are seperate from my own mind) then we can say that we are viewing the same objects in space and that these objects exist(eg the wine bottle ect...). 

I am, however, going to take a leap of faith and say that objects exist independently of there being percieved. But I still dont believe that concepts or perceptions of objects are an accurate understanding of an object as it really exists. It is only a fictionsim who's understanding, at best, can only be seperate from the truth. Once you assume as true certain postulates, then anything derived from them are fictionistic in the sense that they are only symbols that are'nt exactly truthfull but usefull. Kinda like a reflection of your self in the mirror, The image is not you, but it represents you. Dont let the word *fiction* scare you away, Think of it like USEFULL fictions or pragmatic. Perhaps the word should be changed?

In summary, my take is: The only truth you can know absolutely is subjective experience, and standing next to that truth--taking a close second in absolute truths--are the events of our mental life. In order to continue from there you need to be pragmatic and start accepting postualtes.

the thread didnt exactly answer my problem, but I am definitely glad Mr.Mushrooms directed me to that thread because if this thread got any deeper I would of made a real mess. :blush: I'm very interested in the continuation of that thread! 


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineDavid_Scape
Anti Genius
Male

Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: ALS OB [Re: Nomad]
    #1239045 - 01/22/03 09:35 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)


"Using my pragmatic definition of truth, it would follow that fictionism is invalid as an argument against, say, science, because science works and still does when you subscribe to fictionism...."

Dont you mean "because science works IN THE SAME WAY as it does when you subscribe to fictionism."? If thats what you mean then I agree. but it definitely makes you look at your own understanding of reality differently.

My definition of truth is just what's real or reality. I agree, of course, in
Mr.mushrooms truth-thread that ones own existence is an absolute truth.

"So, being aware that your world is created by your mind is useful, because, then, you can change the world by changing your mind. But fictionism cannot disprove science, philosophy, or spirituality."

Well I dont think it is trying to disprove anything. I am not trying to disprove any of these. I may be trying to disprove humans goals that they could actually understanding the universe. But then again I would never want to see people halt all progress just because we can't. I dont even know exactly what is going on with spirituality so...

On another note. I like pragmatism, but i dont think it is necessarily a law that knowledge must adhere to in order to be valid.

Don't know, maybe we are just arguing over definitions?"

Possibly. I dont feel like thinking about that right now.... but after reading the truth thread, I am convinced you guys agree with this. You just dont know it yet... Im horrible at communication, that is the problem you see.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Anonymous

Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1239173 - 01/22/03 10:23 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I can agree to that David.


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Anonymous

Re: ALS OB [Re: David_Scape]
    #1240824 - 01/22/03 07:39 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks David! :smile:  You made my night!

Unfortunately, I have too many duties here to respond with anything other than gratitude.  If I had time I could refine your statement(s) to more accurately conform to what I see as the Truth.  Your statement(s) weren't that far off the mark.

I am unaware of any other "gems" (Gawd, I appreciated that :blush: ) in this forum but I do have several coming up that include:

Philosophical evidence for the existence of God
Philosophical evidence for the existence of a soul
And philosophical evidence for the putative disparity between man and other animals

If you stick with this forum long enough you will get to see them. :smile:

Cheers


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