Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineNewbieS
User of semicolons.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 24,715
Loc: SoCal Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes
Treadmill running.
    #12384929 - 04/13/10 12:08 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I finally got into another gym and made a complete lifestyle change in order to lose a lot of weight and tone myself.  I've quit cigarettes, alcohol consumption is down to once every 2 weeks, and I eat mainly raw foods and chicken/fish.  Sometimes a hotdog or two if I've been good all day and worked out.  :lol:

ANYWAY...  I've been reading up on proper treadmill etiquette and I'm not sure I'm doing it properly while walking.  Running feels natural but walking hurts.  The muscles below my calf on my shins and side of my leg hurt, kind of like a shin splint but in a different spot. 

This site says:

Quote:

Do not move your feet (legs) forward. By doing this you are creating the braking force on the body similar to heel striking on over ground running by extending your time of support. This extended period of support allows the shock of landing to be absorbed by your entire body, leading to injury. Since in treadmill running you are being moved by the belt, your foot extended far ahead of the body creates a conflicting braking force with the belt traveling in the opposite direction. During over ground running, the body is leaning, therefore your extended foot creates a braking force on the body, which is moving forward. To avoid this, we need to keep the feet under the body (GCM or hips), not ahead or behind it in order to swiftly change support from one phase to the next with minimal braking.




Can someone clarify or maybe even debunk that quote? 

I don't move my feet forward when running, I just kind of launch myself up and fall back down, following the natural movement of running; but when I walk on the treadmill, say at speed 4 or higher, I almost HAVE to move my feet forward to stay on the treadmill and that's when I get that crampy feeling in my lower leg.  I stretch for about 5 minutes before and after running, so I don't think that's the issue...  I'd run on the treadmill for an hour or 2 if it were up to me but I don't want to injure myself.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitV
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: Newbie]
    #12389252 - 04/13/10 11:44 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If the pain is on the front side of your lower leg, it's probably Tibialis anterior.  It's located just outside and beside the Tibia(shin). It's the muscle that lifts the front of your foot(dorsal flex) so you don't trip over your toes.  Perhaps the problem is you have the treadmill adjusted too much uphill?
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefeifen
Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 7,040
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12389294 - 04/13/10 11:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Either way, you should just do kettlebells, you'll get all the strength and endurance your body will ever need :hehehe:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNewbieS
User of semicolons.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 24,715
Loc: SoCal Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12390353 - 04/14/10 04:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

When I went back after creating this thread I experimented a little and found that running uphill feels better than straight ahead, and when I switch to walking, lowering the incline reduces the pain.  This IS only about a week after I started this so I'll give it some more time and see if any pain persists.  I did about 7 miles of walking/running on the treadmill yesterday and my knee is a little sore but  I'm attributing that to my first 7 mile workout in 3 years.  :lol:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNewbieS
User of semicolons.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 07/18/04
Posts: 24,715
Loc: SoCal Flag
Last seen: 7 hours, 8 minutes
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: Newbie]
    #12413610 - 04/18/10 08:41 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

My shins are definitely very sore.  Yesterday it hurt to even walk around.  I still want to run on the treadmill though; I like it.  Will I cause damage by running with shin splints or will it eventually toughen up and go away?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefeifen
Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 7,040
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: Newbie]
    #12414322 - 04/18/10 11:50 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

It isn't good to run with shin splints. I have no idea if it will toughen up, I'm no expert on it but I'll look it up for you here in a second.

Newbie! Seriously, go check out a kettlebell (especially if you have shin splints, the kettlebell is easy on the joints)

You will NOT regret it. I swear my life by it :yesnod:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCMACD
The Sto)))ve
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 813
Loc: too scared Flag
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: feifen]
    #12414407 - 04/18/10 12:01 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think if you ditch that treadmill and run with proper form on a fairly soft surface (like dirt) the shin splints may go away. I've heard bad things about treadmills & joints. You run with alot more muscular control over your legs without a treadmill. I can't say for sure though, as I've never got shin splints from running, I've always got shin splints from jump rope, and I'd quit jumping rope and only run distances to make them go away, and they did.

The kettlebell might be kind of a cardio workout... but I guarantee that you're not going to get better at running faster or further from it... so how can it be that great? Every single strength training forum & article I read that isn't on The Shroomery tells me kettlebells are overpriced and overrated. Maybe if you're some monster that already pushes & pulls mega numbers in both olympic weightlifting & powerlifting and wants to work on some awkward movements so that he's like... really all around the strongest possible in every way... but until you can squat & benchpress 1.5x your bodyweight, and deadlift 2x your bodyweight, you're better off building those foundations up before you screw around with all these kettlebell assistence exercises.


--------------------






Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefeifen
Registered: 10/18/08
Posts: 7,040
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: CMACD]
    #12414505 - 04/18/10 12:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Actually... everything you just said is absolute horseshit

Go look around... if anything you'll hear about Kettlebells being one of the BEST workout tools you can have

I use to deadlift, squat, olympic press, bench, etc. It doesn't even COMPARE to the high intensity training of the kettlebell. The strength and endurance gains is PHENOMENAL. By the way, I can squat almost twice my weight, bench at about 1.8x my weight, and I have no idea about my deadlift anymore. I don't even do them anymore because the kettlebell works out EVERYTHING

And yeah, I bet I could run better AND faster than an endurance runner.

You honestly don't know what you're talking about. Go get a kettlebell and tell me that I'm wrong.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: CMACD]
    #12414766 - 04/18/10 01:03 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I just posted a week or so ago regarding this:

Quote:

CMACD said:
The kettlebell might be kind of a cardio workout... but I guarantee that you're not going to get better at running faster or further from it.




Your guarantee is incorrect - there are many people successfully training with kettlebells to aid their running.

I started running last spring, fairly regularly for a few months before doing 2 races, 1 of which is very challenging xc type 15kms in my rural neighbourhood both were extremely challenging and left me exhausted and sore.

I stopped running for 8 months+ (unsure of exact time.) However, between October and April i trained exclusively with kettlebells and made considerable body composition changes. - A few weeks ago, I did 2x 3km treadmill runs one week. The following week i went out and ran the challenging 15km into a strong headwind with a better time than i raced last year + when i was done i was very good shape. Since, i have been adding distance and am still running way below max effort.


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblememes
Blessed


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: PDU]
    #12414941 - 04/18/10 01:29 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I love how CMACD came in here and spouted a bunch of assumptions of his and now he looks like a jackass

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCannashroom
Smoke two Joints
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Everywhere
Last seen: 7 years, 4 days
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: CMACD]
    #12415724 - 04/18/10 03:48 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CMACD said:
I think if you ditch that treadmill and run with proper form on a fairly soft surface (like dirt) the shin splints may go away. I've heard bad things about treadmills & joints. You run with alot more muscular control over your legs without a treadmill. I can't say for sure though, as I've never got shin splints from running, I've always got shin splints from jump rope, and I'd quit jumping rope and only run distances to make them go away, and they did.

The kettlebell might be kind of a cardio workout... but I guarantee that you're not going to get better at running faster or further from it... so how can it be that great? Every single strength training forum & article I HAVEN'T read that isn't on The Shroomery tells me kettlebells are NOT overpriced and overrated. Maybe if you're some monster that already pushes & pulls mega numbers in both olympic weightlifting & powerlifting and wants to work on some awkward movements so that he's like... really all around the strongest possible in every way... but until you can squat & benchpress 1.5x your bodyweight, and deadlift 2x your bodyweight, you're better off building those foundations up before you screw around with all these kettlebell assistence exercises.




Fixed, because from your post you obviously haven't actually read a single [good] article on kettlebells.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (04/18/10 03:49 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: CMACD]
    #12415974 - 04/18/10 04:31 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Newbie - go run outside.

I am a fairly inexperienced runner who is looking to do a marathon and i find running outside immensely easier and more satisfying than on a treadmill.

Quote:

CMACD said:
you're better off building those foundations up before you screw around with all these kettlebell assistence exercises.




Why?


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCMACD
The Sto)))ve
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 813
Loc: too scared Flag
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: Cannashroom]
    #12416030 - 04/18/10 04:42 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Wow, I tried to be as nice as I can about it, and all these little kettlebell worshippers got all butthurt. Sorry for having a differing opinion...
    I look like a moron because I've read that kettlebells are overrated & overpriced?

:rofl:

Want to get better at lifting heavier shit? Lift heavier shit often. Want to get better at running faster? Sprint often. Want to get better at running further faster? Run long distances often. Want to get better at dinking around with kettlebells like a trendy retard? Go spend a few hundred bucks on a set of them.

Honestly, people see professional athletes using these things and think it's going to be some holy grail of fitness. They use them because they're PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES, they've already been developing foundations in strength for years & are doing different exercises to fill holes in their game. I'm not saying they might not be useful for coming out of a plateau or something... I'm not saying they're totally useless, but they are OVERPRICED & OVERHYPED.


--------------------






Edited by CMACD (04/18/10 04:47 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCMACD
The Sto)))ve
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 813
Loc: too scared Flag
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: feifen]
    #12416137 - 04/18/10 05:02 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

feifen said:
By the way, I can squat almost twice my weight, bench at about 1.8x my weight, and I have no idea about my deadlift anymore. I don't even do them anymore because the kettlebell works out EVERYTHING




n e evidence?
and on the slim chance you do post a video or something... you're telling me kettlebells are what got you that strong?

Quote:

feifen said:And yeah, I bet I could run better AND faster than an endurance runner.



:rofl:

Just read that to yourself a few times. You don't even run, and you bet you can beat someone at it who trains in it every day cause of your kettlebells. What does running "better" mean? Unless you DO run all the time, and you just didn't mention it. hah.


--------------------






Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCMACD
The Sto)))ve
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/01/07
Posts: 813
Loc: too scared Flag
Last seen: 11 months, 6 days
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: CMACD]
    #12416208 - 04/18/10 05:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry for this triple post. And yes, PDU, I threw the word "guarantee" out there a little loosely. I believe you when you say they helped you run your 15k in a better time...  I didn't mean to totally shit on kettlebells, I just kinda wanted to spell out feifen's statement  that

"Either way, you should just do kettlebells, you'll get all the strength and endurance your body will ever need"

is not true. & that kettlebells are too much on the price side of the price/reward scale for me. You did still have to run a few times before you bothered attempting to repeat your 15k run. you know that if you JUST trained kettlebells that whole time you wouldn't have beat it. Maybe not, but that's how I see it. Sorrie!


--------------------






Edited by CMACD (04/18/10 05:18 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: CMACD]
    #12416244 - 04/18/10 05:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

This is a stupid argument and totally off topic to this thread. However, in an attempt to get that last word  :devilguy:, i would like to point out:

  • kettlebells are a very powerful workout used by a motley group of strongmen and average joes who believe in the credos that "simplicity is key."
  • kettlebells are very cheap compared to going to a gym or  buying weights, or even buying running shoes.
  • kettlebells have improved my running significantly.
  • kettlebells are uniquely efficient cross training for a wide variety of disciplines due to the nature of their worksouts; explosively, wholebody, ballistic, endurance.


BTW - I think meams said you looked like moron because you made a statement without any truth to back it up.

Quote:

but I guarantee that you're not going to get better at running faster or further from it




especially when my own experience is contrary to what you said.

It seems like CMACD's position is assuming that everyone who is looking for a good fitness routine is wanting to move around heavy weights.

I can only speak from my own experience - but my current fitness goals are to be overall lean and healthy and able to comfortably climb mountains, lift and move things with ease in my daily life, and cycle, hike and run long distances and be injury free in my day to day life while maintaining a respectable physique.

I could care-a-less if i ever pick up 300lbs. (the view from atop a glacier is better than the one in a gym.:P)

That said - when one takes Newbies recent posts in P+MH, he is obviously looking to build his body and become healthy. Feifen simply offered a suggestion on one method of working out which Newbie might want to consider and CMACD jumped up and immediately started bashing it and making outlandish claims against it. In my opinion this is not necessary.

Either back your shit up, or don't talk shit. There are at least 5 of us on this forum who are having excellent results with the kettlebell, Hue and Sunflower experienced remarkable results ... i just don't see the point in arguing.


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

Edited by PDU (04/18/10 05:27 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: CMACD]
    #12416271 - 04/18/10 05:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CMACD said:
I just kinda wanted to spell out feifen's statement  that

"Either way, you should just do kettlebells, you'll get all the strength and endurance your body will ever need"

is not true. & that kettlebells are too much on the price side of the price/reward scale for me. You did still have to run a few times before you bothered attempting to repeat your 15k run. you know that if you JUST trained kettlebells that whole time you wouldn't have beat it. Maybe not, but that's how I see it. Sorrie!




Ok, i see where your coming from. I agree we are awfully "pro kettlebell" around here..

Although for the record - i did not need to do those 2 3k runs at all, i am sure they did not help the 15k at all. I actually hit the treadmill those days because i had an injury and then have been running since, because the sun is shining.

For the record - there was a guy over at dragondoor that exclusively trained with kettlebells and did a marathon, without running at all. (which in itself is stupid thing to do, but also one you can't laugh at.)


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePDU
travel kid vs.amerika
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 10,675
Loc: beautiful BC
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: Newbie]
    #12416327 - 04/18/10 05:41 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Newbie said:
When I went back after creating this thread I experimented a little and found that running uphill feels better than straight ahead, and when I switch to walking, lowering the incline reduces the pain.  This IS only about a week after I started this so I'll give it some more time and see if any pain persists.  I did about 7 miles of walking/running on the treadmill yesterday and my knee is a little sore but  I'm attributing that to my first 7 mile workout in 3 years.  :lol:




Ok Newbie - if you are/do plan on running regularly either on a treadmill, or outside - i highly suggest going to a running store and getting properly fitted for some real running shoes.

You probably don't realize, but your feet are either pronated, neutral or supinated and if you log many miles wearing the wrong kind of shoes - you will very likely injure yourself. I did.

That said - you can use online guides to figure out what type of feet you have, and just buy cheap running specific shoes (not cross trainers!) You do not need to spend a fortune, good shoes can be found for $60-70.


--------------------
GO OUTSIDE.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCannashroom
Smoke two Joints
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/25/07
Posts: 2,141
Loc: Everywhere
Last seen: 7 years, 4 days
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: CMACD]
    #12416389 - 04/18/10 05:51 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CMACD said:
Wow, I tried to be as nice as I can about it, and all these little kettlebell worshippers got all butthurt. Sorry for having a differing opinion...
    I look like a moron because I've read that kettlebells are overrated & overpriced?

:rofl:

Want to get better at lifting heavier shit? Lift heavier shit often. Want to get better at running faster? Sprint often. Want to get better at running further faster? Run long distances often. Want to get better at dinking around with kettlebells like a trendy retard? Go spend a few hundred bucks on a set of them.

Honestly, people see professional athletes using these things and think it's going to be some holy grail of fitness. They use them because they're PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES, they've already been developing foundations in strength for years & are doing different exercises to fill holes in their game. I'm not saying they might not be useful for coming out of a plateau or something... I'm not saying they're totally useless, but they are OVERPRICED & OVERHYPED.




I am sorry, you have no idea WTF you are talking about. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact.

Kettlebells swings will increase your deadlift, squats, and olympic lifts.

It builds unrivaled explosiveness in the hips needed for those lifts.

Do a google search.  If you train with kettlebells well I GUARANTEE increased results in dead, squat, olympic lifts and more.

Kettlebells burn 20.2 calories/minute

Spinning is 9.6

Do you know what the fitness test for getting into the US secret service is?

200 24kg kettlebell snatches in 10 minutes.

Does the US military base their fitness tests off of fads?

Did the Russian secret service base their fitness training off of fads?  No, they based it off of results.



I paid 200 dollars for my two kettlebells I will have for the rest of my life.

How much have you paid in gym fees this year?

Overpriced my fucking ass.  They are way cheaper than a gym membership.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleeligal
Noobie


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 7,021
Loc: California
Re: Treadmill running. [Re: Newbie]
    #12416613 - 04/18/10 06:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

:facepalm:

Back on topic:

Quote:

Newbie said:
My shins are definitely very sore.  Yesterday it hurt to even walk around.  I still want to run on the treadmill though; I like it.  Will I cause damage by running with shin splints or will it eventually toughen up and go away?




Shin splints wont go away until you let them recover. You have over used that muscle and it needs to rest. You can strengthen that muscle after it has recovered which would be a good thing since it would mean better muscle balance in your leg, however it sounds like youre getting shin splints from bad posture.


Quote:

Newbie said:
but when I walk on the treadmill, say at speed 4 or higher, I almost HAVE to move my feet forward to stay on the treadmill and that's when I get that crampy feeling in my lower leg.




If youre going at 4 or higher you shouldnt be walking anymore, this is when you start jogging. (On the treadmill you should be imitating how you walk and run outside in the natural environment, your feet dont go that far forward when you walk outside do they?) If youre running and your feet are still so far forward then you should consider running outside or on a track. The softer the ground the better (like I mentioned in a few other posts, run on the beach), make sure your shoes fit and are not worn out, and make sure youre properly hydrated. And theres always elliptical trainers and stationary bikes as well which might let you do some cardio without working your tibial muscle as much.


--------------------
\m/ Spanksta \m/

"do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?"

"MolokoMilkPlus said:
I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job"

"tactik said:
respect the can."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Kettlebell Thread
( 1 2 3 4 ... 142 143 )
memes 123,727 2,851 06/08/15 03:00 PM
by Tripsurfer
* Russian Kettlebells Huehuecoyotl 1,161 4 03/02/08 07:43 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* Another Kettlebell Thread for the Truly Hard Core
( 1 2 all )
Huehuecoyotl 4,040 25 03/26/10 06:05 PM
by just chillin
* Russian Kettlebells MrBump 1,074 4 09/13/06 04:10 PM
by MrBump
* Any Kettlebell Lifters Here ?
( 1 2 all )
Rammstein 2,706 21 07/10/08 11:31 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* Enter the Kettlebell Huehuecoyotl 2,327 5 04/04/08 08:21 AM
by Huehuecoyotl
* . dr_gonz 925 6 11/19/05 11:50 AM
by MarkostheGnostic
* How much do you run?
( 1 2 3 all )
Delyrium 3,710 41 07/17/07 09:08 AM
by Gomp

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: CherryBom, Rose, mndfreeze, yogabunny, feevers, CookieCrumbs, Northerner
2,391 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 17 queries.