Home | Community | Message Board

World Seed Supply
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Extract

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
A Critique of Yoga Forms
    #12364023 - 04/09/10 07:51 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"[Yoga] exercises represent special techniques prescribed in advance and intended to achieve a definite psychic effect, or at least to promote it. This is true both of Eastern yoga and of the methods practiced in the West. They are, therefore, technical procedures in the fullest sense of the word; elaborations of the originally natural processes of transformation. The natural or spontaneous transformations that occurred earlier, before there were any historical examples to follow, were thus replaced by techniques designed to induce the transformation by imitating this same sequence of events."

What do you think?
Can a replication of a naturally occurring phenomena still produce the effects of a naturally occurring phenomena?
Or are such paths looking in the wrong direction?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364069 - 04/09/10 08:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

All I know is that Patanjali who was the originator of yoga, never practiced yoga as we know it today. all this handstand physical stuff known as kriya yoga in india was invented in the 1800's.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364167 - 04/09/10 08:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

In my ignorant opinion the basis of all this is to create a mind that can concentrate deeply. By any means and with intent, life can be experienced more fully.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: appleorange]
    #12364203 - 04/09/10 08:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

appleorange said:
All I know is that Patanjali who was the originator of yoga, never practiced yoga as we know it today. all this handstand physical stuff known as kriya yoga in india was invented in the 1800's.





source that patanjali never practiced asana?  (he's not the originator of yoga, but more involved in the development of Classical Yoga)

it is true though, that no poses are mentioned by name in the Sutras.  asana is referred to as a "comfortable, steady, posture"

poses started to develop and get names from teh 13th-18th century......


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12364360 - 04/09/10 08:54 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Everything I know about yoga is from my friend Abhik.

He's a hindu and we talked about yoga one day, aside from what he told me I know very little about yoga.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12364376 - 04/09/10 08:57 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

If I may, I think that whenever forms came around is a secondary question to whether a naturally occurring experience/phenomena can accurately be captured and reproduced over time.

It drives straight into language too.
Can we really capture in words these experiences?
And perhaps more importantly, why do we try to explain these experiences?

"There was once a queer old man who lived in a cave, where he had sought refuge from the noise of the villages. He was reputed to be a sorcerer, and therefore he had disciples who hoped to learn the art of sorcery from him. But he himself was not thinking of any such thing. He was only seeking to know what it was that he did not know, but which, he felt certain, was always happening. After meditating for a very long time on that which is beyond meditation, he saw no other way of escape from his predicament than to take a piece of red chalk and draw all kinds of diagrams on the walls of his cave, in order to find out what that which he did not know might look like. After many attempts he hit on the circle. "That's right," he felt, "and now for a quadrangle inside it!"--which made it better still. His disciples were curious; but all they could make out was that the old man was up to something, and they would have given anything to know what he was doing. But when they asked him: "What are you doing there?" he made no reply. Then they discovered the diagrams on the wall and sad: "That's it!"--and they all imitated the diagram. But in so doing they turned the whole process upside down, without noticing it: they anticipated the result in the hope of making the process repeat itself which had led to that result. This is how it happened then and how it still happens today."


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364394 - 04/09/10 09:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

sorry, OP, i got caught up in yoga history.

im not sure i 100% understand your question.

are you propsoing that the poses are less valid now because they have names???


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12364418 - 04/09/10 09:05 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm suggesting that the poses were a manifestation of the search for truth, but that they are not the truth nor even what leads to truth.
And that this often is confused by spiritual practitioners.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364461 - 04/09/10 09:12 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

im not sure what you mean by the truth, but i believe that asana is a step on the path to Yoga.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12364476 - 04/09/10 09:15 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Truth in this context being a synonym for what all spiritual paths seek.
Is Yoga a synonym for Enlightenment or Oneness with God?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364487 - 04/09/10 09:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

where is that quote from?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364491 - 04/09/10 09:18 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think the physical postures developed as a way to help realize the truth.

In Zen for example, the point of zazen is to settle the mind to a point where body and mind disappear.

I'm sure kriya yoga has a similar intent.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12364498 - 04/09/10 09:19 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Both are from Jung as he spoke on the archetype of spiritual rebirth.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: appleorange]
    #12364504 - 04/09/10 09:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)


In Zen for example, the point of zazen is to settle the mind to a point where body and mind disappear.


Do you believe this is possible through zazen?
Or that zazen happened through truth?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: appleorange]
    #12364523 - 04/09/10 09:25 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I always enjoy watching this yogi on youtube because of his frequent use of the word stargate.

He makes yoga sound like an episode of star trek.



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleappleorange
Rainbow Technician
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,868
Loc: Reykjavík
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364550 - 04/09/10 09:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

In Zen for example, the point of zazen is to settle the mind to a point where body and mind disappear.


Do you believe this is possible through zazen?
Or that zazen happened through truth?




Is it possible in Zazen? Yes, it happens rarely though.

Master Dogen is the only one who comes to mind who achieved satori through Zazen.

I think for most people, Zazen merely helps to lay the foundation for the reception of truth.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364555 - 04/09/10 09:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Both are from Jung as he spoke on the archetype of spiritual rebirth.




figures :tongue2:

i absolutely believe that yoga postures, when practiced with dedication and for a long time, are a step toward realizing "truth".  i think meditation is also a necessary part of the equation. 
Quote:

Kickle said:

In Zen for example, the point of zazen is to settle the mind to a point where body and mind disappear.


Do you believe this is possible through zazen?
Or that zazen happened through truth?





chicken?

egg???


:psychsplit:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12364583 - 04/09/10 09:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I won't argue for stepping stones -- seems to me that everything is a stepping stone.
Merely that no one stone is more important than any other.

Seems to me that this artificial importance leads to attachment which leads to stagnation.
And in this stagnation, the truth is believed to be known -- even while it is moving on.

chicken?

egg???


Maybe...
I guess I see the first yogi as the chicken and yoga as their egg.
I don't think that yoga will turn you into a chicken though :shrug:

To me, yoga is just one of many eggs.
And the first yogi, one of many chickens.

IMO the best thing you can do with an egg, is to eat it.
Eat it and gain nourishment from it.
Other than that, I don't think it's going to get you to the truth. 


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Edited by Kickle (04/09/10 10:05 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 day
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12364903 - 04/09/10 10:27 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I think that if you're truly interested in origins, Mircea Eliade's Yoga: Immortality and Freedom is THE most scholarly way to go. There are speculations about the Soma of the Vedas, that either Amanita muscaria or Psilocybian (my guess, owing to its impartation of sacrality to cow dung, which imparted sacrality to the cow!) mushrooms, gave rise to yoga techniques as mushrooms became scarce. It may have been the desire to become independent of mushrooms, so as to develop greater freedom from attachment. I know that was my motivation originally, to move away from acid years ago - to establish the consciousness on my own, or with grace, but without material aid. This might mark the change from shamanism to sagehood or sainthood, depending upon the model. Eliade also wrote Patanjali and Yoga, and Shamanism: Archaic Techniques of Ecstasy. The late Romanian historian of religion probably changed my life in 1974 with his book The Sacred and the Profane.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #12364978 - 04/09/10 10:43 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Markos, do you believe in the historical past?
Meaning, do you believe that it is more than just a parallel of our lives?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12365008 - 04/09/10 10:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Great thread Kickle

I have recently been considering this, particularly the difference between the emptiness of form (or the middle way path), and the yoga Asanas.

They seem to contradict, but I do not find that they are difficult to reconcile in practice. They are more of something interesting to pop up depending upon who I am around.

And yes, I find that the asanas are very similar to the practical use for language; this is a great comparison in regard to form.

- "
Quote:

Chicken or Egg?


" For all practical purposes, I think this describes the situation.

One might say that emptiness precedes form, as a possible form is conceived. But a more practical perspective, or according to the "non-origination of all things" (Candrakirti) the only situation to consider is one where form is emptiness.
Quote:



"There was once a queer old man who lived in a cave, where he had sought refuge from the noise of the villages. He was reputed to be a sorcerer, and therefore he had disciples who hoped to learn the art of sorcery from him. But he himself was not thinking of any such thing. He was only seeking to know what it was that he did not know, but which, he felt certain, was always happening. After meditating for a very long time on that which is beyond meditation, he saw no other way of escape from his predicament than to take a piece of red chalk and draw all kinds of diagrams on the walls of his cave, in order to find out what that which he did not know might look like. After many attempts he hit on the circle. "That's right," he felt, "and now for a quadrangle inside it!"--which made it better still. His disciples were curious; but all they could make out was that the old man was up to something, and they would have given anything to know what he was doing. But when they asked him: "What are you doing there?" he made no reply. Then they discovered the diagrams on the wall and sad: "That's it!"--and they all imitated the diagram. But in so doing they turned the whole process upside down, without noticing it: they anticipated the result in the hope of making the process repeat itself which had led to that result. This is how it happened then and how it still happens today."




This seems to be an example of emptiness, but what else does it entail? Those last two sentences are right on, imo, but I wonder if they have to be conceived with such an implicit aura of frustration.

Bringing them into practice, one can't but realize that the forms of language and asanas are "merely" mental and physical contortions. They are the conventional lingo of the body and mind. But in their direction toward emptiness, I think it is as much as saying that the path is preconceived. For this, one has to have a foretaste him or herself.

I have recently been tracing the contortions of my mind and language to arrive in instances at this idea of emptiness. Similarly, the end of a yoga series will end with savasana "corpse pose", which is relaxation, melting of physical contortions (yet it is still considered an asana, just like emptiness is a word). Having discovered these forms indirectly through doctrines, "on a cave wall" has nothing at all to do with this realm of possibility.

Yet how can I disagree with the aspect of the critique, that holds "the forms" are the problem here? Indeed, but by consequence, I would say, what certain forms do we refer to? Isn't the eccentricity of the forms what causes the problem, especially if the forms are considered empty by whatever regard? The story describes emptiness of form for those who followed the man. But was it full for him?

I would say instead, we can "look" for the emptiness of emptiness. This is an adjective.

The arbitrariness of the nominal (noun, as possible referent) form will always be seen as pretentious. Words are ultimately pretentious. Stretching and folding your body into weird positions is pretentious. That has to do with their thingness, but it also tacitly concerns the practical attitude that addresses the things by some manner. So then, why should the practical spontaneity and flow of these forms be ignored, while impotence and frustration is passed on? I think its clear it should be the other way around, (if anything.)

Personally, I think "a path" is often clear. The thing is, you can never really make sense of the path, or take a picture of it to share with others. I don't know how this works. But I think its clear that this critique implies this (as nonsense, not indifferently), and is ultimately just as burdened as the philosophical propaganda it would possibly counter.

I would argue in response to this story, one only has either form or emptiness as possible referents, and the critique does not meaningfully apply to the practice of forms. Its a story, like mine. The forms are forms, "as such".


Edited by daytripper23 (04/10/10 01:24 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblelIXII
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 09/04/05
Posts: 274
Loc: Ol cane hills
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12365097 - 04/09/10 11:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

My experience with yoga is distant, however, concerning the application of forms:

Our bodies consist of many passageways, through which travel the various substances of life. These are our fluids, gases, minerals, nervous impulses, hormones, any of which can be altered in their course through the organism, which causes change in our physiological function.

One interesting influence is in the breath. By changing the amount of co2/oxygen in the blood, one changes the ph of the blood, which induces change in the nervous system. By holding deep breaths, breathing quickly, one induces alkalization of the blood, induces parasympathetic nervous response, and can ultimately induce deep comatic 'dream' or 'trance' states (aka passing out). The opposite is true of the reverse (and is more dangerous, high co2 in the body generally is bad)

This, along with the changes effected by sustained body positionings, & other influences can drastically alter the reality/consciousness of the practitioner, via long-term/permanent change of the nervous system. Seems useful to use wisely..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12365143 - 04/09/10 11:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)


This seems to be an example of emptiness, but is the underlying frustration really necessary? Those last two sentences are right on, imo, but I wonder if they have to be conceived with such an implicit aura of frustration.


I didn't take any frustration, I only saw a sharp jab at preconceptions. But then again, Jung may have had a following by this time (1949) and he may have grown tired of people trying to replicate what he said rather than forging their own way. The story could have very well been about himself, and most likely is.

But being from similar stock, it's about me as well :wink:

But in their direction toward emptiness, I think it is as much as saying that the path is preconceived.

I think when applied by nothing for nothing, you're right. :wink:
However, I find that many use it just to relax or to keep the body healthy.
Where do you think this desire comes from and does it differ from a direction towards emptiness? 
The insights IMO are vastly different depending on your orientation.


Yet how can I disagree with such a critique, that "the forms" are the problem? I would say, what forms?


You're right. There are no forms that are lasting, they are all temporary manifestations; illusions that we cling to. So the critique is really towards clinging to these forms, more than of the forms themselves existing. That is why I've tried to drive home that yoga will not get you to your goal... this thought, this attachment, is what prevents the benefits of yoga from really being. But they are not benefits just from yoga, they are benefits everywhere. People flock to yoga as if it were a holy grail of truth, but it's just one form of many.

I think a path is often clear.
Am I to understand this as a disbelief in rebirth?
That regardless of where one finds themselves, they can utilize yoga correctly?

I tend to find that Yoga is most often improperly used, just as Christianity is.

Thanks for the response


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12365538 - 04/10/10 01:03 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What is your experience with the dark side of yoga?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12365672 - 04/10/10 01:39 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Define dark side of yoga.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12366254 - 04/10/10 08:02 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

This is what I am wondering based on what he said.

The "improper use" of yoga.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23] * 1
    #12366480 - 04/10/10 09:36 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Improper in the sense that it strengthens the sense of "I"
Of reinforcing the ego and identification with the body.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Edited by Kickle (04/10/10 10:02 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12366730 - 04/10/10 10:57 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Well, we can't be having THAT now can we?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12366748 - 04/10/10 11:03 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

We can and do have it.
It just goes against the reason Yoga came to be.

This thread is a critique for those who want to pursue the original goals of yoga, it is not a mandate.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12366753 - 04/10/10 11:04 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Just because someone invents a bicycle to serve as a lawn ornament doesn't mean we can't use it to get places fast.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12366774 - 04/10/10 11:09 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Dark side of yoga. What is that???????
Quote:

Kickle said:
Improper in the sense that it strengthens the sense of "I"
Of reinforcing the ego and identification with the body.



I think you are overcomplicating things.
Original goals of yoga?
What are they?
Is there even goals in yoga?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12366776 - 04/10/10 11:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I'm aware of the openness.
There is nothing mandatory about what I post.
Just words on a page
Words that are subject to the same flaws.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL] * 2
    #12366778 - 04/10/10 11:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

No, AFAIK all you do is stretch, become more flexible and look cool.  :cool2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12366784 - 04/10/10 11:12 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
No, AFAIK all you do is stretch, become more flexible and look cool.  :cool2:



There is Pranic streams in the body, its not just stretching.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
    #12366786 - 04/10/10 11:13 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
I think you are overcomplicating things.
Original goals of yoga?
What are they?
Is there even goals in yoga?




:thumbup:
No goals, exactly...

:thumbdown:
Why did you post this?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12366790 - 04/10/10 11:13 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I dunno why did you post your post???


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
    #12366797 - 04/10/10 11:15 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

p4kSouL said:
Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
No, AFAIK all you do is stretch, become more flexible and look cool.  :cool2:



There is Pranic streams in the body, its not just stretching.




What is a Pranic stream??


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL] * 1
    #12366818 - 04/10/10 11:18 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Because as I read Jung I couldn't help but think that others might find this thought useful as well.
To share forum appropriate information that others may never have read on their own otherwise.

Your turn.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12366820 - 04/10/10 11:19 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Damn son, you're snarky.  Save it for PSP!


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12366830 - 04/10/10 11:21 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:rofl:
I'm mid cup of coffee, I'll come around...


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12366837 - 04/10/10 11:22 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

In Chinese medicine you have meridian system.

Its acupuncture points that connect to the internal organs & consciousness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
    #12366846 - 04/10/10 11:23 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

How does that relate to the Pranic stream?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12366876 - 04/10/10 11:26 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Pranic is also considered "Chi".

Chi and Prana from my understanding are the same thing.


Like negative emotions cause "Pranic" or "Chi" blockages along energy channels. This is why people hold poses its a form of Aravedic healing.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
    #12366882 - 04/10/10 11:27 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I can see the use of visualizing these energy streams as far as a metaphor but I am skeptical that this is energy in the physics sense of the term.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12366897 - 04/10/10 11:29 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah science has a hard time proving this. Im just explaining the theory.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL] * 1
    #12366899 - 04/10/10 11:30 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:heartpump:

BTW science can't prove anything, it can only disprove


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12366925 - 04/10/10 11:34 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Haha yeah!:heart: I dunno science is a lot of stuff, I never been good at school.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367214 - 04/10/10 12:27 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I won't argue for stepping stones -- seems to me that everything is a stepping stone.
Merely that no one stone is more important than any other.

Seems to me that this artificial importance leads to attachment which leads to stagnation.
And in this stagnation, the truth is believed to be known -- even while it is moving on.

chicken?

egg???


Maybe...
I guess I see the first yogi as the chicken and yoga as their egg.
I don't think that yoga will turn you into a chicken though :shrug:

To me, yoga is just one of many eggs.
And the first yogi, one of many chickens.

IMO the best thing you can do with an egg, is to eat it.
Eat it and gain nourishment from it.
Other than that, I don't think it's going to get you to the truth. 





did i say that asana is more important than any other "stone" on the proverbial "path"? 

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
No, AFAIK all you do is stretch, become more flexible and look cool.  :cool2:




:rolleyes:


OP would you please say in plain english the point your trying to make and give a practical example.  i am too dumb to follow your metaphors.  but i kinda sorta think i know what you're getting at.


Prana flows trough nadi's or channels, in the subtle body, according to Yogic philosophy.  There are the ida (left), pingala (right), and sushumna (central, connects the base chakra to the crown)

can be manipulated to balance, calm, invigorate using pranayama (breath control)


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367220 - 04/10/10 12:28 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I guess I still don't understand if this Pranic energy actually exists or if it's just a convenient visualization metaphor/tool used to produce certain effects on the mind/body.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12367261 - 04/10/10 12:36 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:shrug:

from my teacher training manual:

Where does Prana come from??

According to notes from teh Yogis' Parlor:
  • Prana comes about when something (the material world) is manifest from no-thing
  • Prana is the life force that is released when Brahman splits into Shiva and Shakti and this becomes the motivating force to all form
  • Cells expand to absorb prana on the inhalation
  • life force is absorbed for growth and generation
  • air element
  • related to Anahata Chakra



i dunno but i think it's a mystical explanation for what is actually taking place physiologically if when you practice breath control


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny] * 1
    #12367269 - 04/10/10 12:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting... this seems to have parallels with the Kundalini serpent and the unification of Shiva with Shakti.  :strokebeard3:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367271 - 04/10/10 12:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

OP would you please say in plain english the point your trying to make and give a practical example.  i am too dumb to follow your metaphors.  but i kinda sorta think i know what you're getting at.

This is as good as I can capture in english:
There is no point. There is no end goal, no aim.
Not to any thing, this includes my language and the yogic forms.
It is a challenge, a critique.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367275 - 04/10/10 12:39 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah honestly I couldn't really understand the OP either.  Sorry Kickle.  :lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367308 - 04/10/10 12:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
Interesting... this seems to have parallels with the Kundalini serpent and the unification of Shiva with Shakti.  :strokebeard3:





not just parallels, the subtle body and chakra system and energy channels are what Tantra and Kundalini are based on.

Quote:

Kickle said:
OP would you please say in plain english the point your trying to make and give a practical example.  i am too dumb to follow your metaphors.  but i kinda sorta think i know what you're getting at.

This is as good as I can capture in english:
There is no point. There is no end goal, no aim.
Not to any thing, this includes my language and the yogic forms.
It is a challenge, a critique.





alllllrighty then.

what i THINK you are trying to say is that the westernization of yoga (here meaning asana practice, the postures) has only served to INcrease the ego "i"ness, which is counterintuitive to the orginal aim of Yoga philosophy.  i do agree that certain styles developed here are not at all in keeping with the actual philosophy behind the practice of Yoga (meaning the way of life/philosophy).


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367314 - 04/10/10 12:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

No skin off my back...
there is no point.

I do not doubt that there are those who see what is in the first post.
Some have shown this understanding better than I had it myself [markos]
Others absorb it as it fits in their journey [daytripper]

I was really hoping for someone to rebel against it though


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367319 - 04/10/10 12:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I have a book on Highest Yoga Tantra from a class on Buddhism I took last semester but I never could quite believe some of the outlandish claims in there.  :shrug2:

Maybe I'm just too skeptical for my own good.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367321 - 04/10/10 12:48 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What is there to rebel against when All is One?  :tongue2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367330 - 04/10/10 12:49 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

outrageous claims.....such as?


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367336 - 04/10/10 12:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

From what I remember the author was talking about the ability to choose which afterlife to go to after one dies, provided of course one has been through the proper meditative training regimen.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367351 - 04/10/10 12:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
From what I remember the author was talking about the ability to choose which afterlife to go to after one dies, provided of course one has been through the proper meditative training regimen.





yyyeah that sounds more like Tantric Buddhism for sure.

i wonder.

Tantric Yoga is more about THIS existence THIS moment.  this one right now.  finding the love, joy and divinity in every experience whether it be pleasant or unplesant.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367359 - 04/10/10 12:54 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:heartpump::discorex::heartpump:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367369 - 04/10/10 12:57 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

what i THINK you are trying to say is that the westernization of yoga (here meaning asana practice, the postures) has only served to INcrease the ego "i"ness, which is counterintuitive to the orginal aim of Yoga philosophy.  i do agree that certain styles developed here are not at all in keeping with the actual philosophy behind the practice of Yoga (meaning the way of life/philosophy).

I'm trying to say what cannot be said.
Good luck, right? :lol:

p.s. how'd your interview go?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367375 - 04/10/10 12:58 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You should read my thread on Wittgenstein over in PSP.

whereof one cannot speak, one must thereof remain silent


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367382 - 04/10/10 01:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
what i THINK you are trying to say is that the westernization of yoga (here meaning asana practice, the postures) has only served to INcrease the ego "i"ness, which is counterintuitive to the orginal aim of Yoga philosophy.  i do agree that certain styles developed here are not at all in keeping with the actual philosophy behind the practice of Yoga (meaning the way of life/philosophy).

I'm trying to say what cannot be said.
Good luck, right? :lol:

p.s. how'd your interview go?





you're driving me nuts!  lol. 

they're not hiring right now, but the girl i spoke to pointed me in the direction of another studio that might be hiring.

thanks for asking :smile:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367383 - 04/10/10 01:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

About Jung's allegory:

I would say he has convoluted the praxis of form with the form's emptiness in a manner that is nihilistic.

I would say he has assumed a practical nihilism towards all forms, and that is a burden to his argument. Let me further explain this:

First, I wouldn't doubt that this particular species of "form" he describes is something that might be, and often is encountered in the world. The negative connotation of this form, is clearly its dogmatism. As a critique of forms, or as you describe, a jab at preconceptions, the description does seem to carry a negative connotation, at least to this particular form.

Assuming the forms is not necessarily dogmatic though, and neither is the only alternative to that nihilistic.

You have correctly described the form in its static nature, as a preconception. But this applies to all forms. In fact, this description seems to be the basic platonic conception of form as an abstract object.

Now where does the aura meaningless come from? What follows as practical nihilism, is the implication of emptiness of the object into the realm of praxis (practice, ritual, etc.) That is, as I have described in the enactment, "pretentiousness".

His story is not only describing the emptiness of form, but also the form's implication into practical usage, and the nihilistic sentiment that this entails. He tacitly includes praxis as the story arch of his narrative.

In this particular narrative, what he describes is a particular species of form that would not be sensibly followed. He implies this has something to do with the characteristic of all forms, of being empty.

But the negative contrast of this description of an "empty" form, is only being seen (mistakenly) as a negation of a more sensible ideal form. For example, in a very apparent invocation of form, technology is an example that might be mistaken as somehow approaching some kind of substantial truth. That is, its truth almost seems manifest. In a certain conventional sense it is. He negates this ideal of a substantial truth, in terms of practically corrupt form, such as dogmatic rituals. At the same time he indicates in its application to all generic forms, this is how one arrives at emptiness.

It remains negativity though, and is seen by his sentiment.

He mistakes this negation that is encountered within praxis, with the general emptiness of all forms, emptiness that has no contrast. This is what I am elaborating as practical nihilism.

Both species of forms are substantially empty, but the corrupt ritual, as he describes it, is empty in terms of praxis as well as substance. Not all rituals are corrupt though. Technology is substantially empty, but it serves indubitable practical usage.  He is correct, but his description of emptiness through this particular narrative entails a negative sentiment too, based upon the negation of what the sage describes as "that's right." In this way he aligns praxis and the emptiness form by utilizing a narrative that demonstrates truth to be opaquely subjective in all cases. Here is the description of that:

The supposed "lack of meaning" to his words "that's right" is an eccentric perspective towards subjectivity that is for the purpose of this nihilistic tale, only demonstratively meaning that is conveniently unrevealed, or opaque. "That's right" is supposedly in this opaqueness, actually void of all content, insomuch that it is subjective. It held that this is what it must be, because for all practical purposes (for his followers) this is what it has become. Or it might as well be. But that is a convenient story arch.

If Jung would be trying to describe the invocation of forms from nothingness, it would not be based on a relative contrast of what is "right". Thus, in his imagination that this occurence is descriptive of form arising from nothingness, he presumes that the words "that's right" could somehow possibly be meaningless in but in terms of their relative content.

He hold's that "that's right" is meaningfully meaningless, or in other words subjective in what nihilists hold as their eccentric truth.  He holds that this is the only possibility, that the content of form is necessarily meaningless, due to the emptiness of form.

There are two possibilities. The first is that this practical nihilism is indeed assumed, and the man is simply lying (ether to himself or others). This way, the emptiness of practical form is aligned with the emptiness of abstract form and may be described as the same in this regard, praxis unavailing entirely. 

But on other hand, there is the possibility that when he says "that's right", he is being genuine. This of course, rules out the possibility that he has imagined a substantial truth though. What makes it right? He has simply found a relative meaning for drawing the circle with a square in the middle. Right, as in correct in a certain context which he expresses upon the cave wall. Maybe its the moon in the sky or something. The point is, it is not mistaken as a substantial truth. So again, by "that's right", if he is telling the truth, he could only be indicating relative meaning. The possibility of him lying does not excuse a nihilistic interpretation of any and all possible events.

But in the convenient ambiguity of this story, drawing out praxis while not allowing the appearence of any relative content, Jung can effectively portray the illusion that the only possible meaning as a substantial truth, is one mistaken, and that is the end of it. He goes on to repeat the same trial, which is not really worth  elaborating because it is the same thing. In short, the man may again be deceptive, or opaque (practically non-revealing) in the transmission of this meaning, but this time by his own choice, not his subjectivity in the world. This to leads to a very real possibility of the complete loss of meaning. But yet again, while nihilism may be easily assumed, it is not necessarily the case. Jung portrays that the fact that the sage is opaque by choice, and before that by subjectivity, as having something to do with emptiness.

The overall sentiment of Jung's story, is derived from the fact that he is attatched to the concept of substantial truth. His description of emptiness is a mistaken contrast that forms should be full. He imagines this, through contrast to ideals that are relatively concrete forms within a certain praxis.

I would say, that such an understanding of emptiness is not an effective critique for its attempt to regard emptiness as a negation of substantial truth. But then that is also a choice like any other.

What if one were to simply regard the "suchness" of conventional existence? This a description that avoids the notion of substantial truth, does not either entail the dualistic of critique of those forms that leads to nihilism. I do not think the conventions of forms are not critiqued in terms of emptiness, because all forms are equally empty.

In closing, I would say the sentiment that emptiness is a problem, is chosen. A person is free to choose.

For instance, in the entrance to the middle way, Candrakirti describes a path that is chosen by those who have obtained the stage called "the joyous":

Even as a common man one may hear about emptiness and experience an inward joy again and again - his eyes moistened with tears born from that joy and the hair on his body standing erect.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367385 - 04/10/10 01:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
You should read my thread on Wittgenstein over in PSP.

whereof one cannot speak, one must thereof remain silent





those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12367387 - 04/10/10 01:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I don't quite understand what you are talking about but sounds like you have some great ideas!  :omg:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367391 - 04/10/10 01:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

yogabunny said:
Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
You should read my thread on Wittgenstein over in PSP.

whereof one cannot speak, one must thereof remain silent





those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know




Sounds like life would be pretty boring for those in the know.  :lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367392 - 04/10/10 01:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

As chronic is/was so found of saying, I know what I say may confuse the mind.
Maybe I'm getting somewhere.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12367393 - 04/10/10 01:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe you don't have to get anywhere because you're already there?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewellage
Strange
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 2,467
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367404 - 04/10/10 01:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Asanas are great.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12367414 - 04/10/10 01:08 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
Quote:

yogabunny said:
Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
You should read my thread on Wittgenstein over in PSP.

whereof one cannot speak, one must thereof remain silent





those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know




Sounds like life would be pretty boring for those in the know.  :lol:





precisely.  if taken at face value.

:tongue2:

here's the whole chapter:

Those who know don't talk.
Those who talk don't know.

Close your mouth,
block off your senses,
blunt your sharpness,
untie your knots,
soften your glare,
settle your dust.
This is the primal identity.

Be like the Tao.
It can't be approached or withdrawn from,
benefited or harmed,
honored or brought into disgrace.
It gives itself up continually.
That is why it endures.
Quote:



Kickle said:
As chronic is/was so found of saying, I know what I say may confuse the mind.
Maybe I'm getting somewhere.




well it's prone to happen when we attempt to muddle modern psychology with ancient spirituality.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367443 - 04/10/10 01:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Tao te Ching FTW!

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.


LOL


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12367457 - 04/10/10 01:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
Tao te Ching FTW!

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.


LOL





who knew?

lao tzu invented LOL

:laugh2:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367475 - 04/10/10 01:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367487 - 04/10/10 01:19 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
I don't quite understand what you are talking about but sounds like you have some great ideas!  :omg:





oh yeah, and ditto on this.

i am going to have to look up "praxis"

:tard:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367491 - 04/10/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

That's about where I stopped reading.  :rofl:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12367498 - 04/10/10 01:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, now mix in my use of the allegory to your analysis! :lol:

But really, I'd contend that the negativity you've seen, this issue taken with form, is something that is true not just of Jung but of all who genuinely practice these concepts. For why, upon reaching enlightenment, would the Buddha still teach? For what purpose would he try to get others to awaken?

Jung was a psychologist, he wanted to alleviate suffering as well.
It's not that form is bad, it is that identification with form leads to suffering.
That includes forms of spirituality.

The middle road, one wherein everything that occurs is exactly as it should is a nice thought, but such a reality leaves little room for moral development.
AKA there is no reason to do good in such a world.
Unless what should be, is exactly what is.
And what is, is both a positive in every thing as well as a negative.
Can't fault Jung for manifesting what is.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12367503 - 04/10/10 01:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I am the motherfuckin' form.
-Plato


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinewellage
Strange
 User Gallery
Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 2,467
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12367514 - 04/10/10 01:25 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Asanas help me (and my friends I have shown some too) mostly in reconnecting my mind to my physical form.

It's easy in the 21st century to deny that one is a psychosomatic being.

And meditation is almost impossible for me if I don't quell my body first!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367556 - 04/10/10 01:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Well as usual I have gotten carried away in attempting to wrap things up. Short version:

The jist of what I am saying, is the nihilistic sentiment of Jung's story can be revealed in the sage saying "that's right".

Jung holds the paradoxical position that "that's right" is "meaningfully meaningless", that is, subjective in the sense that nihilism purports to hold a truth.

It is assumed that he considers this initial conception of a symbol as a "lie" in any case, such as it would exist as a foundation of language. What does Wittgenstein say about game theory?

I would say the foundations of language are opaque, perhaps authoritative, and even violently conflictual, but they cannot possibly articulate the lie when there is not yet any context.

"That's right" is clearly already appealing to a specific context. It is appealing to a game that is already established, so much that these words have any meaning. He may be lying of course, or he may be wrong about certain things, but this cannot possibly come above the context that is necessary to make the statement.

The illusion is not that this statement points to substantial existence. That is that within the praxis of interpretation, this is even within the realm of possibility. I'd say that he has flipped it over. The fact that substance cannot be found, is preceded by the fact that contextual language could not possibly address it.

This is what I mean by the praxis of form (such as language), being convoluted with emptiness. I was describing the many implications of this, and thats how it went on for so long.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367557 - 04/10/10 01:36 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
Maybe you don't have to get anywhere because you're already there?




All travel happens now.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367561 - 04/10/10 01:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

It's getting clearer now but I'm still hopelessly confused.  Sorry man, I won't try to derail you from your arguments but I think I disagree with you when you imply that context doesn't exist at some point.  Context always exists, n'est-ce pas?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367575 - 04/10/10 01:40 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


The middle road, one wherein everything that occurs is exactly as it should is a nice thought, but such a reality leaves little room for moral development.




This is what I am indirectly getting at, the madhyamika is often accused of nihilism but only due to misunderstandings of emptiness.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12367606 - 04/10/10 01:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Attempts to unify are what confuse IMO
Unify what?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367632 - 04/10/10 01:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Everything?  :shrug:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367643 - 04/10/10 01:52 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Unify everything into what? From what?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12367648 - 04/10/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367654 - 04/10/10 01:55 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:
:shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12367664 - 04/10/10 01:57 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek”


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367671 - 04/10/10 01:58 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:rofldrunk:

I personally think it's the hokey pokey.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367686 - 04/10/10 02:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Context always exists? But there is certainly life that precedes language. I thought the question is how we came to language.

Isn't this question of what precedes context, the point of wittgensteins game theory? He is describing how language or context is originally instantiated.

I am saying that language could not have possibly arisen out of itself. 'Praxis" is a term that would make this clear.

By my use, praxis just refers to the field of practice. For instance, praxis concerns whereupon the practice of language occurs. In this case, it is crucial to acknowledge this because language clearly could not have arisen out of itself (that is within its own context - because it did not exist yet).

For instance, it seems that Jung imagined that the conception of the symbol actually reflects the manner that the language based on it has grown within and in terms of its context.

Building words, lumping them together, slang, slang, and all the new connections between signification that are all forms of reference. This is how language and concepts have grown in terms of the practice of language. But the original conception of symbol (which was what Jung was getting at) could not have been based upon previous context, it would be like saying the dictionary (reference) existed before words.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12367692 - 04/10/10 02:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Language has always existed; everything is a symbol.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23] * 1
    #12367701 - 04/10/10 02:04 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What do you mean?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12367712 - 04/10/10 02:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Everything is representation in some manner I'd say.  This is a difficult concept to communicate.

EDIT: I am approaching this from the magickal angle.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367742 - 04/10/10 02:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I believe everything is structure and substance doesn't exist; thus communication (language) is just interacting structure with itself.  There's an analogy to a single wave being composed of many different waves here; instead of treating language as a particular subset of these interacting waves that produces other subsets I am expanding the word to cover the AUM as a whole.

Did that help?  My ideas still need to be fully linguistically fleshed out, LOL.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery

Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12367754 - 04/10/10 02:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i would need strong amphetamines to be able to keep up with you guys.

:crazy:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367791 - 04/10/10 02:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"I have for you, my dear, a proposition," I said.
"I know," she said. "You make it every time I see you."
"Not that proposition," I said. "I have an additional one, though that previously referred to above should not be considered thereby inoperative."
"I beg your pardon?"
"I didn't understand that either," I said.  :tongue2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367795 - 04/10/10 02:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What is structure without substance?
What is the structure made of if not subsance?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleyogabunnyM
fancy cat
Female User Gallery


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367799 - 04/10/10 02:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
"I have for you, my dear, a proposition," I said.
"I know," she said. "You make it every time I see you."
"Not that proposition," I said. "I have an additional one, though that previously referred to above should not be considered thereby inoperative."
"I beg your pardon?"
"I didn't understand that either," I said.  :tongue2:





:snowman:


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367801 - 04/10/10 02:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
What is structure without substance?
What is the structure made of if not subsance?




what is substance??


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367807 - 04/10/10 02:24 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You got me, you were the one using the term :smile:

I find both form and substance are illusory.
An attempt to be a static form of what is not static.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367827 - 04/10/10 02:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

structure/form is ever-changing IMO


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367836 - 04/10/10 02:32 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

But eternal?
I still wonder what it is made of.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367843 - 04/10/10 02:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

"eternal" is a word used to describe certain structures

I don't think substance exists; if it does then what IS it?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367855 - 04/10/10 02:37 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

That's no fair, that's exactly the same question I'm putting to you for your definition of structure :wink:

I have a personal answer, but I'm still curious as to what a structure is without any substance.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367864 - 04/10/10 02:40 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

What is substance without structure?

Suppose we define substance as something, say atoms.  Then what is an atom?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12367875 - 04/10/10 02:43 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

As I understand, Magick would be an example of practice.

And for all practical purposes, I agree that "everything is contextual"  because everything is something we refer to.

But we only use what is in context based on what is outside of context. Otherwise, we would not refer to context at all.

For instance, notice the use of quotes here to further signify reference. I am stepping outside the context of just using words. I seem to have practically encapsulated language, from within another level of language. This is happening all the time but always within a greater context.

These layers are only found within the realm of symbology, and it is impossible to ULTIMATELY step outside of this altogether. So you can see how I agree with you, that we are necessarily commited to context. But I wonder if you can you see how this might turn the other way, to make "the word" either absolute, or absolutely meaningless. That is to imagine that one has stepped entirely out. Both the nihilist and the absolutist have stepped entirely outside of language, while paradoxically existing in reference to language.

The absolutist will step outside to lay down the laws, whenever it is convenient to him. On the flip-side, the nihilist is one to keep playing, but ignores the rules from within the game (meaningfully meaningless conduct).

This is not necessarily ethical inquiry, it is a contextual argument, against the person that holds nihilism and absolutism as philosophical perspectives. Obviously people are going to do whatever they are going to do. But by acknowledging praxis, or what people "reasonably" do in language, one comes to the agreement to the rules of a game, for whoever wants to play. I think the idea is you can play any position besides the nihilist or absolutist, and by this standard you are within the conduct of language.


Edited by daytripper23 (04/10/10 02:46 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367877 - 04/10/10 02:43 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Who defines substance as a form? :tongue2:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367880 - 04/10/10 02:44 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Hmm, I would say that nothing can be outside of context.  :confused2:  How are you defining absolutism?

And Kickle, I am using the words form and structure interchangeably.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367890 - 04/10/10 02:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, so am I.
Ok, this is going nowhere so I'll try and define substance for you.

Substance - that which animates form.
Form - that which contains substance.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367895 - 04/10/10 02:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

If nothing can exist outside of context, what possible meaning does the word have?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12367898 - 04/10/10 02:48 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

And thus we have merged duality into monism.  :congrats:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12367900 - 04/10/10 02:48 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
If nothing can exist outside of context, what possible meaning does the word have?




Which, "context"?  I don't understand your question.  Does context need to have something existing outside of it?  What would this even mean?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12367913 - 04/10/10 02:51 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
And thus we have merged duality into monism.  :congrats:




and substance without form is just plain weird.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12367950 - 04/10/10 03:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Something must be either within context, or out of context, because the word has no other use than pointing this out. This rule has to do with the word, not the world itself.

The purpose of this usage of context, is in most cases to bar the assumption that whatever is within a context is absolute.

If you aren't operating within some context, I can't begin to argue. For instance the absolutist or nihilist who just is just apparently labeled this because he does whatever he wants, is not subject to debate. The person who just does whatever he wants, precedes context, and he is basically unreasonable.

What I was arguing against is when context is used to arrive at such a perspective. To philosophically arrive at absolutism or nihilism. In this case I can disagree based on the possibilities of operation within a certain context, that a person cannot possibly arrive by these agreed parameters. 

Context is not reality itself, it is a tool for establishing the parameters of philosophy. The world is not contextual, the way we refer to it is.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms *DELETED* [Re: yogabunny]
    #12367954 - 04/10/10 03:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by p4kSouL

Reason for deletion: .



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
    #12367960 - 04/10/10 03:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, by that definition I would be irrational.  :thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12368035 - 04/10/10 03:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

By my standards, possibly.

Rationality is another example that must be instantiated.

Logic too, is based on the instantiation of logos.

All "reason" 

These are metaphysical burdens that one probably, but does not necessarily deal with.

For instance, ratio implies a realm of sense, of making 1:1. Irrationality is perhaps me noting that your reasoning is 1:2.

But perhaps you are plainly ambivalent to this ratio. My point that you are being irrational, is only taken if you are operating within this same context.

But maybe you are not even paying attention to what is being ratiocinated. Me calling you irrational might fit my purposes, but that is only an expression of me not being able to make sense 1:1 of what you are doing. It is me pointing my finger at something, and saying it does not make sense. Perhaps the hope is that someone who is seeing the same thing, and cares about the same thing, will either reform this, or make sense of it.

Sense ultimately comes down to sensation, and there is no "making sense" of THAT. Ultimately, all of these words for reason, or language require instantiation. My real point here is that reason cannot be justified by itself. Language cannot arise out of itself. etc etc...


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12368039 - 04/10/10 03:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not sure where you're going with this but I believe contradictions.

six impossible things before breakfast


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12368077 - 04/10/10 03:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I have described a pragmatic (that is what all the talk about praxis is about) philosophy of anti-realism, and attempted to distinguish it from irrationality or nihilism.

I don't know what you are describing. What do you mean "you believe contradictions?"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12368119 - 04/10/10 03:40 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

For instance:

I believe everything is One.  I simultaneously believe that everything is separate.

Does this answer your question?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12368149 - 04/10/10 03:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I will have to get back to you on that.

Good talking to you Mr Cypher, I have to write an essay now.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12368164 - 04/10/10 03:49 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Likewise!


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineg00ru
lit pants tit licker
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 21,088
Loc: georgia, us
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12368214 - 04/10/10 04:04 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
I guess I still don't understand if this Pranic energy actually exists or if it's just a convenient visualization metaphor/tool used to produce certain effects on the mind/body.




What's the difference, really? You're directing thought energy to a part of the body and certain results follow. "energy" in my opinion is just a term that signifies any sort of capacity to alter or do work.  In this way you can see a link between the kinetic and potential energy of physics and the thought energy of a focused mind. It may well be a metaphor, but a metaphor is still a thing.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: g00ru]
    #12368244 - 04/10/10 04:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12372288 - 04/11/10 11:54 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Kickle, I enjoyed your critique of the forms, and I think you raise a lot of interesting questions. This is what I like to think about, although personally, I don't see how anyone takes a static position towards form (either way). But digging your heels you create an interesting anchor point. I am only recently getting into yoga myself, and I can relate to an external conception of it.

Its interesting to me to observe how the mind resonates with practice. Just this last week, I've been checking out the local Iyengar classes, a kind of yoga where the forms are relatively static. That is, generally one holds poses more than flowing through them. So to me it can seem fitting to regard form in terms of a static point, but on what level? What I have found so far is that even though the forms can be more or less static, I haven't encountered any practice that a point of gravitation incurs upon me as absolute, as if somehow demanding conformity.

Note that my comparison is very general, in that the relatively static Iyengar yoga is in contrast to flowing Vinyasa. These broad examples serve as the  contrast of a philosophy I am ultimately attempting to represent. My goal here is representative, while my particular understanding and experience of yoga is very humble, and anyone would probably be better asking someone like Yogabunny about any specifics.

Anyways, the point of my comparison is that a static conception of form, like a snapshot, is very limited to represent a flowing practice such as Vinyasa. A static conception of Iyengar on the other hand, might seem closer as representative in itself. But even Iyengar, if I may paraphrase what I heard today, "stretches to certain static poses, but it also stretches from." So they are both practical, and indeed, in both practices a person wants to intimately understand a center of gravity. That is a point of static conception in a certain sense. It is internally conceived, or found within praxis/practice.

I find that this "point", the "embodiment of gravity", or its conception as the "conforming pull" - is for the most part personal in the practice of yoga. It is your center of gravity, even though we are all pulled to the same earth. Or as any good teacher would say - listen to your body. I think that this personal intimation takes a clear precedence to the "doctrinal" forms that are passed down.

But I would further argue that even those forms are tailored to the uniquely "human" physique, which was not even a universal conception either. Rather, a "human" practice is conceived within the evolutionary spectrum. So the possibility of conformation is thanks to the individual situation we are in, of mind and body, and the  similar situation we all find ourselves in as humans. That is where I imagine the real conformity occurs, and so in this regard, it is certainly within the realm of possibilities that it is your body and your mind that defines this engagement - at an individual level, or even a human level.

My point in that sense, is that there is not necessarily an appeal to universality in the conception of these forms.

Applying rhetoric that is strictly of psychological or philosophical (mind) nature will obviously be limited to a practice of concerned with mind and body. To me this study has actually revealed a great necessity to bring a perspective of dependent origination (such as mind/body) to the discursive forms of either philosophy or psychology, such as for example, what we are doing here. I would argue on a philosophical level, that one needs to acknowledge the metaphysical instantiation of logos, rationality, or any other system of the mind. Yoga could represent this by its practical focus on mind and body.

______________________________________________________________________
Here is an expanded take on Jung's little story that I've found so interesting. THis is sort of a work in progress. While the following is the continuation of the previous idea, if you are not a fan of abstruse metaphysics you might want to skip this portion of the post (only because I would like people to see the end) I will mark the end of this metaphysical portion with the same demarcation.

My precise disagreement with Jung is his imagination that the contextual declaration of "that's right" - a contextual remark that defines the symbol - could somehow precede that very symbol. He makes it seem like they are arising together, but this is tantamount to the fact the he is not acknowledging the instantiation of his metaphysics.

"That's right" would be properly conceived in two parts, in terms of the symbol, and in terms of the context of that symbol. That conception would be doctrinal, precisely as he describes it: "That's right" would derive its context from some previous form, if only the idea that "that's right" means something. But Doctrine could not arise out of itself, because there would be no higher appeal. Language or the symbol itself could not have possibly been conceived by reference, because reference did not yet exist. Jung merely describes the possibility of doctrinal reference, and since this is not possibly the case as an original conception, it is not necessarily the case from within convention either. Thus, his story should not be mistaken as the substantive intimation or genesis of the symbol. This is just an impossible scenario.

I believe in the possibility of generic emptiness of form. Generic form (that is a genitive, not Universal), that is conceived by the representation of genealogy, seems to point to a genesis. But this is merely how language subsequently works.

It seems to me, that in light of its use for deconstruction, genealogy does point to the emptiness of form, and that is why a path is conceivable through representation (as the praxis of language). This emptiness could not possibly speak though. If the story was meant to describe a generic emptiness that applies to all forms, the sage would not say "that's right". There would be no sentiment paired to the narrative disappointment of his substantive declaration. How could emptiness "speak"? I think it is only understood by circumspection. My goal here is to allow it to speak indirectly, through the praxis of representation, but not in nihilism of its own form. I am not sure that I have adequately represented the possibility of emptiness, but I believe I have at least deconstructed the alternatives of either substantive or nihilistic claims.

Following this digression, I will now return to this concept of practice/praxis
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems like people sometimes might hear a little too much about what goes on within the practice, from an outside perspective, and so it might seem "eccentric". (Like gravitation.) I mean some of the poses (forms) are clearly eccentric, but what any and every single one of them basically comes down to the practice. I would say that this apparent eccentricity is a process, by which the point of gravity is (like emptiness) understood by circumspection. People talk about the substantive point, or a body of gravitation as a practical reference, and they might refer to it as both a particular and universal body to describe the process more clearly (or as it seems, at all).

My experience yoga is a practice that works with eccentricity. The word I would use to describe this, is accommodating. Perhaps that is commodifying myself into a certain praxis, or within a certain "orbit". But the thing is, I don't believe there is any alternative to this. I am much more skeptical of the supposed unitary conception of nature.

An Eccentric Orbit:



Kickle, you should check out this film. I would describe it as a meeting of intrinsic and extrinsic perspectives of yoga. I don't think it really represents the practice of yoga in an incredible depth, but maybe its a point of discursive interest. Anyways, what you have spoken of has reminded me very much of it:

"A skeptic's journey into the world of yoga".

http://enlightenupthefilm.com/

Its on netflix - watch instantly. You could probably find a torrent too.


Edited by daytripper23 (04/11/10 10:03 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12373109 - 04/11/10 02:25 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

And btw, I would be happy to clarify and work with my own eccentric use of language, so feel free to point something out if it doesn't make sense.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12373152 - 04/11/10 02:34 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Cool! Can you explain the "Eccentric Orbit", I dont really understand it??
Thanks man!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
    #12373574 - 04/11/10 03:52 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Well first off, I thought this metaphor of an "orbit" was an original concept, but now I can see that you referred to orbit when you were talking about prāna.

Is this a particular terminology of yoga that you are aware of? Could you elaborate?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12374078 - 04/11/10 05:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The Macrocomsic orbit & Microcosmic Orbit is a Taoist Technology for mediation practice.

In involves connecting meridian channels up the back of the body and down the front of the body. (They can reverse two up the front down the back it does not really mater)




The chakras correlate to the existence to this orbit, in the sense that the Front peddles of Sushumna are associated to the functional channel, as the back peddles of Sushumna associate with governing channel.

This is why I personally like to visualize the peddles of the chakras, better then visualizing "energy moving along channels". Its like learning how to breath through the whole body.


Ive been taught, the best way to do yoga is hold a pose, keep the tongue touching the roof of the mouth above the front teeth (automatically connects front and back channels of the microcosmic orbit), and breath deep even breaths. Holding Asana for each chakra (And internalise emotional attitude of each chakra) 5 to 10 minutes locks & cleans out energy in the human energy structure. Every asana has a chakra focus. Also some asanas activate all chakras and acupuncture points.
But I am no master so dont take my advice 100 percent please.

This yogi explains Microsomci orbit pretty well:



To learn Chakra awakening I personally recommend, www.umaatantra.com
Its probably the best distance learning yoga source around.
They also have free videos on this too. And to understand the subtle stuff that is not usually taught in yoga class.


Edited by p4kSouL (04/11/10 10:26 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledaytripper23
?
Male

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc: Flag
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
    #12374337 - 04/11/10 08:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Made a bit of an expansion on Jung's critique of the forms, as part of the last post.

Thanks for the info P4K, I will have to take a much closer look at this idea. Can't wait, but I have schoolwork to do.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12374347 - 04/11/10 08:26 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

No problem and thank you for sharing your information daytripper23 :smile:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12374693 - 04/11/10 09:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
I will have to get back to you on that.




:sad:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: daytripper23]
    #12375136 - 04/11/10 10:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

My point is, there is not necessarily an appeal to universality in the conception of these forms

Absolutely not, I think we strongly agree on this point.
Like magnets drawn to the same piece of metal.
There is no attempt to lay down a static nature to this critique -- its interpretation is fluid, just as yoga's is.

This post, for me, was about not trying to tie down what underlies yoga.
For it did not arise out of something that can be tied down.
That to pursue it through yoga, is to chase ghosts.
 
Yoga forms are useful in the utmost.
But to me they do not transcend what they are.
Just as the body does not transcend itself.
What fills them may potentially be transcendental, but the form itself is empty.

I am drifting here somewhat from what you wrote, and I'm not so sure that we disagree on any of this. Rather, I am rewording it into a lingo that I comprehend with a more Buddhist/Jungian background. This of course points out that both you and I, when discussing such a topic, are inherently limited by language. For language, as you described, stems from a rhetoric of some sort. I'm unsure if you have followed any of the neuropsychology, but it gives a solid basis for why language cannot transcend brain function. To describe anything that transcends the brain (aka the body) is to try and transcend language. It is an impossible task, yet one that I find very fun to play with. 

=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=
^_^

As for your mid section, I do have some things relating more directly to your writings.
"Thus, his story should not be mistaken as the substantive intimation or genesis  of the symbol. This is just an impossible scenario."

I don't think Jung would have had anyone interpret it any other way.
He loved Plato for his contributions in this regard.
The man who writes on the wall is not creating anything.
He is manifesting what already is, into form.
The problem lies in the fact that people believe that something powerful was created.
Something substantial -- something to be mirrored and mimicked.
But it was not created. It is just a form, one of many.
One that was personal for the individual manifesting it.

What I take from this, is that Jung believed that the process of manifesting what is, is a deeply personal endeavor.
One that is richly rewarding and extremely powerful.
   
And that this process is slowed when an individual tries to say any one form is the manifestation of what is.
To write it down and create a doctrine out of it, to say THIS form, yes, this one is the way.

Sure, it may be the way... for some.
And for a lot of others, it probably isn't.
It encourages people to seek their own answers.
To not buy into doctrine, especially if it doesn't fit.
When I look at the influx of Eastern ideas into Western culture,
I see a lot of people thinking "Yes, this time I've got the answer!"
But are they really looking for an answer,
or just another form to stuff their ego into for a while?

Jung said that those who do not understand religion will be the ones most comfortable sticking within doctrine.
For those who do understand religion, such a stay will chafe.
They will not feel a stranger to any religion, merely they will not be content in its doctrine.

That pretty much sums up my feelings about it as well


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Edited by Kickle (04/11/10 11:01 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12375241 - 04/11/10 11:05 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

p.s. makes me wish Icelander would read long posts :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
    #12375292 - 04/11/10 11:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Word.  He's still ignoring me.  :sad:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
    #12375308 - 04/11/10 11:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

To be fair, for a while there you were ignore worthy.
I think you've come into a nice balance though
:shineon:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12375323 - 04/11/10 11:16 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I try.  :lol:

power corrupts


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12375381 - 04/11/10 11:26 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

absolutely

:yesnod:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekcobra15
Bodhisattva
Male


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 320
Loc: Washington
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #12379234 - 04/12/10 04:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

A little note for those interested...Though I couldn't bring myself to read this entire thread...

Patanjali is NOT the originator of yoga...it is said that he synthesized practices that existed before him into what we now call "classical yoga"...in which asana (seat of the sage) is simply referred to as a comfortable position for meditation. It wasn't until roughly 600-800 year later that an asana form was given, and it was not until the nath yogis of the middle ages that Hatha Yoga emerged as a path not to spiritual liberation but to bodily Immortality. The present day asana yoga that is practiced in America, India, and around the world is only about 100-150 years old. The ancient Yogis were not contortionists or simply spiritual meditators...they were portrayed as fiendish individuals, similar to  sorcerers, who would terrorize people through the use of black magic that centered around blood (sometimes human) sacrifice, sexual cults, and efficacious ritual in general. Their concentration was solely on material gain, not spiritual liberation.

Some books:
David Gordon White- Kiss of the Yogini, The Alchemical Body, Sinister Yogis

This guy a a leading scholar in the field and teaches at one of the top Religious Studies programs in the US...UC Santa Barbara.

Peace


--------------------
Om Gam Ganapataye Namah


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: kcobra15]
    #12379241 - 04/12/10 04:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I am curiously intrigued by this mention of immortality...


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekcobra15
Bodhisattva
Male


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 320
Loc: Washington
Last seen: 5 years, 6 months
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12380089 - 04/12/10 06:16 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

check out The Alchemical Body...


--------------------
Om Gam Ganapataye Namah


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: kcobra15]
    #12380092 - 04/12/10 06:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

highest yoga tantra, I GUESS


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblep4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #12380111 - 04/12/10 06:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

lol who knows ???


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
    #12380113 - 04/12/10 06:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Not me, that's for sure.  Anyone got some online links for this impatient reader??


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Amanita Muscaria Store Amanita Extract


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Yoga Nidra leery11 783 3 09/06/06 10:21 PM
by leery11
* Yoga. Gomp 1,486 10 09/18/06 12:10 PM
by Telepylus
* The Case Against Meditation
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Ped 8,290 72 07/24/13 10:17 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* The Book of the Mantis Moonshoe 1,259 1 08/10/15 11:58 AM
by Soul-Shine
* Chakras
( 1 2 all )
dblaney 5,474 28 04/04/06 10:52 AM
by totallytwisted
* Yoga 101?
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
yogabunnyM 7,707 84 05/06/10 06:37 AM
by yogabunny
* Who Is Your God?
( 1 2 all )
daimyo 6,151 35 11/11/05 10:17 PM
by Booby
* Help with Christ and Friends
( 1 2 all )
sleepy 5,541 37 11/19/17 04:53 PM
by IamAlot

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Shroomism, Rose, Kickle, yogabunny, DividedQuantum
8,548 topic views. 1 members, 4 guests and 3 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.067 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 14 queries.