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daytripper23
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367556 - 04/10/10 01:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well as usual I have gotten carried away in attempting to wrap things up. Short version:
The jist of what I am saying, is the nihilistic sentiment of Jung's story can be revealed in the sage saying "that's right".
Jung holds the paradoxical position that "that's right" is "meaningfully meaningless", that is, subjective in the sense that nihilism purports to hold a truth.
It is assumed that he considers this initial conception of a symbol as a "lie" in any case, such as it would exist as a foundation of language. What does Wittgenstein say about game theory?
I would say the foundations of language are opaque, perhaps authoritative, and even violently conflictual, but they cannot possibly articulate the lie when there is not yet any context.
"That's right" is clearly already appealing to a specific context. It is appealing to a game that is already established, so much that these words have any meaning. He may be lying of course, or he may be wrong about certain things, but this cannot possibly come above the context that is necessary to make the statement.
The illusion is not that this statement points to substantial existence. That is that within the praxis of interpretation, this is even within the realm of possibility. I'd say that he has flipped it over. The fact that substance cannot be found, is preceded by the fact that contextual language could not possibly address it.
This is what I mean by the praxis of form (such as language), being convoluted with emptiness. I was describing the many implications of this, and thats how it went on for so long.
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367557 - 04/10/10 01:36 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: Maybe you don't have to get anywhere because you're already there?
All travel happens now.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12367561 - 04/10/10 01:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's getting clearer now but I'm still hopelessly confused. Sorry man, I won't try to derail you from your arguments but I think I disagree with you when you imply that context doesn't exist at some point. Context always exists, n'est-ce pas?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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daytripper23
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12367575 - 04/10/10 01:40 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
The middle road, one wherein everything that occurs is exactly as it should is a nice thought, but such a reality leaves little room for moral development.
This is what I am indirectly getting at, the madhyamika is often accused of nihilism but only due to misunderstandings of emptiness.
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Kickle
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Attempts to unify are what confuse IMO Unify what?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12367632 - 04/10/10 01:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Everything?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367643 - 04/10/10 01:52 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Unify everything into what? From what?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] 1
#12367648 - 04/10/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367654 - 04/10/10 01:55 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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yogabunny
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] 1
#12367664 - 04/10/10 01:57 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek”
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deCypher



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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367671 - 04/10/10 01:58 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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I personally think it's the hokey pokey.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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daytripper23
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367686 - 04/10/10 02:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Context always exists? But there is certainly life that precedes language. I thought the question is how we came to language.
Isn't this question of what precedes context, the point of wittgensteins game theory? He is describing how language or context is originally instantiated.
I am saying that language could not have possibly arisen out of itself. 'Praxis" is a term that would make this clear.
By my use, praxis just refers to the field of practice. For instance, praxis concerns whereupon the practice of language occurs. In this case, it is crucial to acknowledge this because language clearly could not have arisen out of itself (that is within its own context - because it did not exist yet).
For instance, it seems that Jung imagined that the conception of the symbol actually reflects the manner that the language based on it has grown within and in terms of its context.
Building words, lumping them together, slang, slang, and all the new connections between signification that are all forms of reference. This is how language and concepts have grown in terms of the practice of language. But the original conception of symbol (which was what Jung was getting at) could not have been based upon previous context, it would be like saying the dictionary (reference) existed before words.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Language has always existed; everything is a symbol.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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daytripper23
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What do you mean?
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
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Everything is representation in some manner I'd say. This is a difficult concept to communicate.
EDIT: I am approaching this from the magickal angle.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367742 - 04/10/10 02:11 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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I believe everything is structure and substance doesn't exist; thus communication (language) is just interacting structure with itself. There's an analogy to a single wave being composed of many different waves here; instead of treating language as a particular subset of these interacting waves that produces other subsets I am expanding the word to cover the AUM as a whole.
Did that help? My ideas still need to be fully linguistically fleshed out, LOL.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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yogabunny
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] 1
#12367754 - 04/10/10 02:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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i would need strong amphetamines to be able to keep up with you guys.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367791 - 04/10/10 02:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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"I have for you, my dear, a proposition," I said. "I know," she said. "You make it every time I see you." "Not that proposition," I said. "I have an additional one, though that previously referred to above should not be considered thereby inoperative." "I beg your pardon?" "I didn't understand that either," I said.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367795 - 04/10/10 02:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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What is structure without substance? What is the structure made of if not subsance?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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yogabunny
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367799 - 04/10/10 02:22 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: "I have for you, my dear, a proposition," I said. "I know," she said. "You make it every time I see you." "Not that proposition," I said. "I have an additional one, though that previously referred to above should not be considered thereby inoperative." "I beg your pardon?" "I didn't understand that either," I said. 
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