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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367359 - 04/10/10 12:54 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367369 - 04/10/10 12:57 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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what i THINK you are trying to say is that the westernization of yoga (here meaning asana practice, the postures) has only served to INcrease the ego "i"ness, which is counterintuitive to the orginal aim of Yoga philosophy. i do agree that certain styles developed here are not at all in keeping with the actual philosophy behind the practice of Yoga (meaning the way of life/philosophy).
I'm trying to say what cannot be said. Good luck, right? 
p.s. how'd your interview go?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12367375 - 04/10/10 12:58 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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You should read my thread on Wittgenstein over in PSP.
whereof one cannot speak, one must thereof remain silent
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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yogabunny
fancy cat


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12367382 - 04/10/10 01:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: what i THINK you are trying to say is that the westernization of yoga (here meaning asana practice, the postures) has only served to INcrease the ego "i"ness, which is counterintuitive to the orginal aim of Yoga philosophy. i do agree that certain styles developed here are not at all in keeping with the actual philosophy behind the practice of Yoga (meaning the way of life/philosophy).
I'm trying to say what cannot be said. Good luck, right? 
p.s. how'd your interview go?
you're driving me nuts! lol.
they're not hiring right now, but the girl i spoke to pointed me in the direction of another studio that might be hiring.
thanks for asking
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daytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12367383 - 04/10/10 01:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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About Jung's allegory:
I would say he has convoluted the praxis of form with the form's emptiness in a manner that is nihilistic.
I would say he has assumed a practical nihilism towards all forms, and that is a burden to his argument. Let me further explain this:
First, I wouldn't doubt that this particular species of "form" he describes is something that might be, and often is encountered in the world. The negative connotation of this form, is clearly its dogmatism. As a critique of forms, or as you describe, a jab at preconceptions, the description does seem to carry a negative connotation, at least to this particular form.
Assuming the forms is not necessarily dogmatic though, and neither is the only alternative to that nihilistic.
You have correctly described the form in its static nature, as a preconception. But this applies to all forms. In fact, this description seems to be the basic platonic conception of form as an abstract object.
Now where does the aura meaningless come from? What follows as practical nihilism, is the implication of emptiness of the object into the realm of praxis (practice, ritual, etc.) That is, as I have described in the enactment, "pretentiousness".
His story is not only describing the emptiness of form, but also the form's implication into practical usage, and the nihilistic sentiment that this entails. He tacitly includes praxis as the story arch of his narrative.
In this particular narrative, what he describes is a particular species of form that would not be sensibly followed. He implies this has something to do with the characteristic of all forms, of being empty.
But the negative contrast of this description of an "empty" form, is only being seen (mistakenly) as a negation of a more sensible ideal form. For example, in a very apparent invocation of form, technology is an example that might be mistaken as somehow approaching some kind of substantial truth. That is, its truth almost seems manifest. In a certain conventional sense it is. He negates this ideal of a substantial truth, in terms of practically corrupt form, such as dogmatic rituals. At the same time he indicates in its application to all generic forms, this is how one arrives at emptiness.
It remains negativity though, and is seen by his sentiment.
He mistakes this negation that is encountered within praxis, with the general emptiness of all forms, emptiness that has no contrast. This is what I am elaborating as practical nihilism.
Both species of forms are substantially empty, but the corrupt ritual, as he describes it, is empty in terms of praxis as well as substance. Not all rituals are corrupt though. Technology is substantially empty, but it serves indubitable practical usage. He is correct, but his description of emptiness through this particular narrative entails a negative sentiment too, based upon the negation of what the sage describes as "that's right." In this way he aligns praxis and the emptiness form by utilizing a narrative that demonstrates truth to be opaquely subjective in all cases. Here is the description of that:
The supposed "lack of meaning" to his words "that's right" is an eccentric perspective towards subjectivity that is for the purpose of this nihilistic tale, only demonstratively meaning that is conveniently unrevealed, or opaque. "That's right" is supposedly in this opaqueness, actually void of all content, insomuch that it is subjective. It held that this is what it must be, because for all practical purposes (for his followers) this is what it has become. Or it might as well be. But that is a convenient story arch.
If Jung would be trying to describe the invocation of forms from nothingness, it would not be based on a relative contrast of what is "right". Thus, in his imagination that this occurence is descriptive of form arising from nothingness, he presumes that the words "that's right" could somehow possibly be meaningless in but in terms of their relative content.
He hold's that "that's right" is meaningfully meaningless, or in other words subjective in what nihilists hold as their eccentric truth. He holds that this is the only possibility, that the content of form is necessarily meaningless, due to the emptiness of form.
There are two possibilities. The first is that this practical nihilism is indeed assumed, and the man is simply lying (ether to himself or others). This way, the emptiness of practical form is aligned with the emptiness of abstract form and may be described as the same in this regard, praxis unavailing entirely.
But on other hand, there is the possibility that when he says "that's right", he is being genuine. This of course, rules out the possibility that he has imagined a substantial truth though. What makes it right? He has simply found a relative meaning for drawing the circle with a square in the middle. Right, as in correct in a certain context which he expresses upon the cave wall. Maybe its the moon in the sky or something. The point is, it is not mistaken as a substantial truth. So again, by "that's right", if he is telling the truth, he could only be indicating relative meaning. The possibility of him lying does not excuse a nihilistic interpretation of any and all possible events.
But in the convenient ambiguity of this story, drawing out praxis while not allowing the appearence of any relative content, Jung can effectively portray the illusion that the only possible meaning as a substantial truth, is one mistaken, and that is the end of it. He goes on to repeat the same trial, which is not really worth elaborating because it is the same thing. In short, the man may again be deceptive, or opaque (practically non-revealing) in the transmission of this meaning, but this time by his own choice, not his subjectivity in the world. This to leads to a very real possibility of the complete loss of meaning. But yet again, while nihilism may be easily assumed, it is not necessarily the case. Jung portrays that the fact that the sage is opaque by choice, and before that by subjectivity, as having something to do with emptiness.
The overall sentiment of Jung's story, is derived from the fact that he is attatched to the concept of substantial truth. His description of emptiness is a mistaken contrast that forms should be full. He imagines this, through contrast to ideals that are relatively concrete forms within a certain praxis.
I would say, that such an understanding of emptiness is not an effective critique for its attempt to regard emptiness as a negation of substantial truth. But then that is also a choice like any other.
What if one were to simply regard the "suchness" of conventional existence? This a description that avoids the notion of substantial truth, does not either entail the dualistic of critique of those forms that leads to nihilism. I do not think the conventions of forms are not critiqued in terms of emptiness, because all forms are equally empty.
In closing, I would say the sentiment that emptiness is a problem, is chosen. A person is free to choose.
For instance, in the entrance to the middle way, Candrakirti describes a path that is chosen by those who have obtained the stage called "the joyous":
Even as a common man one may hear about emptiness and experience an inward joy again and again - his eyes moistened with tears born from that joy and the hair on his body standing erect.
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yogabunny
fancy cat


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367385 - 04/10/10 01:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: You should read my thread on Wittgenstein over in PSP.
whereof one cannot speak, one must thereof remain silent
those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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I don't quite understand what you are talking about but sounds like you have some great ideas!
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367391 - 04/10/10 01:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
yogabunny said:
Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: You should read my thread on Wittgenstein over in PSP.
whereof one cannot speak, one must thereof remain silent
those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know
Sounds like life would be pretty boring for those in the know.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,851
Last seen: 1 hour, 55 minutes
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367392 - 04/10/10 01:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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As chronic is/was so found of saying, I know what I say may confuse the mind. Maybe I'm getting somewhere.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] 1
#12367393 - 04/10/10 01:03 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe you don't have to get anywhere because you're already there?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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wellage
Strange

Registered: 01/31/09
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12367404 - 04/10/10 01:06 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Asanas are great.
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yogabunny
fancy cat


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] 1
#12367414 - 04/10/10 01:08 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said:
Quote:
yogabunny said:
Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: You should read my thread on Wittgenstein over in PSP.
whereof one cannot speak, one must thereof remain silent
those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know
Sounds like life would be pretty boring for those in the know. 
precisely. if taken at face value.

here's the whole chapter:
Those who know don't talk. Those who talk don't know.
Close your mouth, block off your senses, blunt your sharpness, untie your knots, soften your glare, settle your dust. This is the primal identity.
Be like the Tao. It can't be approached or withdrawn from, benefited or harmed, honored or brought into disgrace. It gives itself up continually. That is why it endures.Quote:
Kickle said: As chronic is/was so found of saying, I know what I say may confuse the mind. Maybe I'm getting somewhere.
well it's prone to happen when we attempt to muddle modern psychology with ancient spirituality.
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367443 - 04/10/10 01:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Tao te Ching FTW!
When a superior man hears of the Tao, he immediately begins to embody it. When an average man hears of the Tao, he half believes it, half doubts it. When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao.
LOL
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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yogabunny
fancy cat


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] 1
#12367457 - 04/10/10 01:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: Tao te Ching FTW!
When a superior man hears of the Tao, he immediately begins to embody it. When an average man hears of the Tao, he half believes it, half doubts it. When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs out loud. If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao.
LOL
who knew?
lao tzu invented LOL
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367475 - 04/10/10 01:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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yogabunny
fancy cat


Registered: 11/01/09
Posts: 11,281
Loc: Nasty Women Get Shit Done
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12367487 - 04/10/10 01:19 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: I don't quite understand what you are talking about but sounds like you have some great ideas! 
oh yeah, and ditto on this.
i am going to have to look up "praxis"
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: yogabunny]
#12367491 - 04/10/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's about where I stopped reading.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
Wanderer



Registered: 12/16/06
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Ok, now mix in my use of the allegory to your analysis! 
But really, I'd contend that the negativity you've seen, this issue taken with form, is something that is true not just of Jung but of all who genuinely practice these concepts. For why, upon reaching enlightenment, would the Buddha still teach? For what purpose would he try to get others to awaken?
Jung was a psychologist, he wanted to alleviate suffering as well. It's not that form is bad, it is that identification with form leads to suffering. That includes forms of spirituality.
The middle road, one wherein everything that occurs is exactly as it should is a nice thought, but such a reality leaves little room for moral development. AKA there is no reason to do good in such a world. Unless what should be, is exactly what is. And what is, is both a positive in every thing as well as a negative. Can't fault Jung for manifesting what is.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] 1
#12367503 - 04/10/10 01:23 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am the motherfuckin' form. -Plato
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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wellage
Strange

Registered: 01/31/09
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] 1
#12367514 - 04/10/10 01:25 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Asanas help me (and my friends I have shown some too) mostly in reconnecting my mind to my physical form.
It's easy in the 21st century to deny that one is a psychosomatic being.
And meditation is almost impossible for me if I don't quell my body first!
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