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daytripper23
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] 1
#12365008 - 04/09/10 10:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Great thread Kickle
I have recently been considering this, particularly the difference between the emptiness of form (or the middle way path), and the yoga Asanas.
They seem to contradict, but I do not find that they are difficult to reconcile in practice. They are more of something interesting to pop up depending upon who I am around.
And yes, I find that the asanas are very similar to the practical use for language; this is a great comparison in regard to form.
- "Quote:
Chicken or Egg?
" For all practical purposes, I think this describes the situation.
One might say that emptiness precedes form, as a possible form is conceived. But a more practical perspective, or according to the "non-origination of all things" (Candrakirti) the only situation to consider is one where form is emptiness.
Quote:
"There was once a queer old man who lived in a cave, where he had sought refuge from the noise of the villages. He was reputed to be a sorcerer, and therefore he had disciples who hoped to learn the art of sorcery from him. But he himself was not thinking of any such thing. He was only seeking to know what it was that he did not know, but which, he felt certain, was always happening. After meditating for a very long time on that which is beyond meditation, he saw no other way of escape from his predicament than to take a piece of red chalk and draw all kinds of diagrams on the walls of his cave, in order to find out what that which he did not know might look like. After many attempts he hit on the circle. "That's right," he felt, "and now for a quadrangle inside it!"--which made it better still. His disciples were curious; but all they could make out was that the old man was up to something, and they would have given anything to know what he was doing. But when they asked him: "What are you doing there?" he made no reply. Then they discovered the diagrams on the wall and sad: "That's it!"--and they all imitated the diagram. But in so doing they turned the whole process upside down, without noticing it: they anticipated the result in the hope of making the process repeat itself which had led to that result. This is how it happened then and how it still happens today."
This seems to be an example of emptiness, but what else does it entail? Those last two sentences are right on, imo, but I wonder if they have to be conceived with such an implicit aura of frustration.
Bringing them into practice, one can't but realize that the forms of language and asanas are "merely" mental and physical contortions. They are the conventional lingo of the body and mind. But in their direction toward emptiness, I think it is as much as saying that the path is preconceived. For this, one has to have a foretaste him or herself.
I have recently been tracing the contortions of my mind and language to arrive in instances at this idea of emptiness. Similarly, the end of a yoga series will end with savasana "corpse pose", which is relaxation, melting of physical contortions (yet it is still considered an asana, just like emptiness is a word). Having discovered these forms indirectly through doctrines, "on a cave wall" has nothing at all to do with this realm of possibility.
Yet how can I disagree with the aspect of the critique, that holds "the forms" are the problem here? Indeed, but by consequence, I would say, what certain forms do we refer to? Isn't the eccentricity of the forms what causes the problem, especially if the forms are considered empty by whatever regard? The story describes emptiness of form for those who followed the man. But was it full for him?
I would say instead, we can "look" for the emptiness of emptiness. This is an adjective.
The arbitrariness of the nominal (noun, as possible referent) form will always be seen as pretentious. Words are ultimately pretentious. Stretching and folding your body into weird positions is pretentious. That has to do with their thingness, but it also tacitly concerns the practical attitude that addresses the things by some manner. So then, why should the practical spontaneity and flow of these forms be ignored, while impotence and frustration is passed on? I think its clear it should be the other way around, (if anything.)
Personally, I think "a path" is often clear. The thing is, you can never really make sense of the path, or take a picture of it to share with others. I don't know how this works. But I think its clear that this critique implies this (as nonsense, not indifferently), and is ultimately just as burdened as the philosophical propaganda it would possibly counter.
I would argue in response to this story, one only has either form or emptiness as possible referents, and the critique does not meaningfully apply to the practice of forms. Its a story, like mine. The forms are forms, "as such".
Edited by daytripper23 (04/10/10 01:24 AM)
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lIXII
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12365097 - 04/09/10 11:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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My experience with yoga is distant, however, concerning the application of forms:
Our bodies consist of many passageways, through which travel the various substances of life. These are our fluids, gases, minerals, nervous impulses, hormones, any of which can be altered in their course through the organism, which causes change in our physiological function.
One interesting influence is in the breath. By changing the amount of co2/oxygen in the blood, one changes the ph of the blood, which induces change in the nervous system. By holding deep breaths, breathing quickly, one induces alkalization of the blood, induces parasympathetic nervous response, and can ultimately induce deep comatic 'dream' or 'trance' states (aka passing out). The opposite is true of the reverse (and is more dangerous, high co2 in the body generally is bad)
This, along with the changes effected by sustained body positionings, & other influences can drastically alter the reality/consciousness of the practitioner, via long-term/permanent change of the nervous system. Seems useful to use wisely..
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Kickle
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This seems to be an example of emptiness, but is the underlying frustration really necessary? Those last two sentences are right on, imo, but I wonder if they have to be conceived with such an implicit aura of frustration.
I didn't take any frustration, I only saw a sharp jab at preconceptions. But then again, Jung may have had a following by this time (1949) and he may have grown tired of people trying to replicate what he said rather than forging their own way. The story could have very well been about himself, and most likely is.
But being from similar stock, it's about me as well
But in their direction toward emptiness, I think it is as much as saying that the path is preconceived.
I think when applied by nothing for nothing, you're right.  However, I find that many use it just to relax or to keep the body healthy. Where do you think this desire comes from and does it differ from a direction towards emptiness? The insights IMO are vastly different depending on your orientation.
Yet how can I disagree with such a critique, that "the forms" are the problem? I would say, what forms?
You're right. There are no forms that are lasting, they are all temporary manifestations; illusions that we cling to. So the critique is really towards clinging to these forms, more than of the forms themselves existing. That is why I've tried to drive home that yoga will not get you to your goal... this thought, this attachment, is what prevents the benefits of yoga from really being. But they are not benefits just from yoga, they are benefits everywhere. People flock to yoga as if it were a holy grail of truth, but it's just one form of many.
I think a path is often clear. Am I to understand this as a disbelief in rebirth? That regardless of where one finds themselves, they can utilize yoga correctly?
I tend to find that Yoga is most often improperly used, just as Christianity is.
Thanks for the response
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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daytripper23
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] 1
#12365538 - 04/10/10 01:03 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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What is your experience with the dark side of yoga?
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deCypher



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Define dark side of yoga.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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daytripper23
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12366254 - 04/10/10 08:02 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is what I am wondering based on what he said.
The "improper use" of yoga.
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Kickle
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Improper in the sense that it strengthens the sense of "I" Of reinforcing the ego and identification with the body.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
Edited by Kickle (04/10/10 10:02 AM)
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deCypher



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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12366730 - 04/10/10 10:57 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, we can't be having THAT now can we?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] 1
#12366748 - 04/10/10 11:03 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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We can and do have it. It just goes against the reason Yoga came to be.
This thread is a critique for those who want to pursue the original goals of yoga, it is not a mandate.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12366753 - 04/10/10 11:04 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Just because someone invents a bicycle to serve as a lawn ornament doesn't mean we can't use it to get places fast.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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p4kSouL
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12366774 - 04/10/10 11:09 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Dark side of yoga. What is that???????Quote:
Kickle said: Improper in the sense that it strengthens the sense of "I" Of reinforcing the ego and identification with the body.
I think you are overcomplicating things. Original goals of yoga? What are they? Is there even goals in yoga?
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher] 1
#12366776 - 04/10/10 11:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah, I'm aware of the openness. There is nothing mandatory about what I post. Just words on a page Words that are subject to the same flaws.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL] 2
#12366778 - 04/10/10 11:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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No, AFAIK all you do is stretch, become more flexible and look cool.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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p4kSouL
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12366784 - 04/10/10 11:12 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: No, AFAIK all you do is stretch, become more flexible and look cool. 
There is Pranic streams in the body, its not just stretching.
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
#12366786 - 04/10/10 11:13 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
p4kSouL said: I think you are overcomplicating things. Original goals of yoga? What are they? Is there even goals in yoga?
No goals, exactly...
 Why did you post this?
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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p4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle]
#12366790 - 04/10/10 11:13 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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I dunno why did you post your post???
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deCypher



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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL]
#12366797 - 04/10/10 11:15 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
p4kSouL said:
Quote:
Mr. Cypher said: No, AFAIK all you do is stretch, become more flexible and look cool. 
There is Pranic streams in the body, its not just stretching.
What is a Pranic stream??
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: p4kSouL] 1
#12366818 - 04/10/10 11:18 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Because as I read Jung I couldn't help but think that others might find this thought useful as well. To share forum appropriate information that others may never have read on their own otherwise.
Your turn.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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deCypher



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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: Kickle] 1
#12366820 - 04/10/10 11:19 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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Damn son, you're snarky. Save it for PSP!
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
 
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Kickle
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Re: A Critique of Yoga Forms [Re: deCypher]
#12366830 - 04/10/10 11:21 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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 I'm mid cup of coffee, I'll come around...
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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