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Anonymous

An English article on America
    #1236361 - 01/21/03 09:33 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002

One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass
murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless
cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's
Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage
in the Nazi concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that
surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.
Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the
perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's
comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.
There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country;
too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than
Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me.
More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are
bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a
century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well
as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands
of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens
of countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we
so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the
planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's
son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.
And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for
their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or
Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The
anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the
Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering
from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it
likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
September 11.

Remember, remember - Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men
phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.
Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning
skyscrapers.
Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.
Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of
the planes with her mum.
Remember, remember - And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11
in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked up without a trial in Camp X-ray?
Pass the Kleenex.
So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired
their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe
next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.
That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being
raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in
the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered
innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that
the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and
didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most
powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not
provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if
America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell
like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of
the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and
the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched
countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the
Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you
haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.
But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above
all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich,
free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion,
or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and
we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the
loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning
towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the
hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell
it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York
Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we
were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up
rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the
range center, Oh Mighty One!

Remember, remember, September 11 -

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against
America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget.

----------------------------------

And with our President I echo, "God Bless America."

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1236407 - 01/21/03 09:47 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against
America.



See, I agreed with the article up to that point. Yes it was horrible, yes it was a great atrocity, but I don't think it was one of the greatest in human history. What about Rwanda, the holocaust, hell even Hiroshima.

But other than that I do agree with the article. My positioned has been shifting on this subject for a while, and I know am beginning to see that this country is great, granted we have our faults, but then again, we do much good.

Thanks for the article, it is very pertinent.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Skikid16]
    #1236660 - 01/21/03 11:00 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

That article is pretty heavy on the rhetoric...

I mean, yah, America has done some pretty great shit in the past...but having people more critical of government might have adverted things like Saddam from comming into power in the first place. Those "nut jobs" are on the recieving end of some pretty horrible shit that we send their way. Doesnt make them great either tho...


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1236675 - 01/21/03 11:05 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think the article was condoning criticism of the US government, it was condoning hatred for the US government, which seems to be spreading.

I don't love our government, but when I look at it compared to many governments around the world, I can say we have one of the best systems. And we have the freedom to change the government if we decided to get off of our fat, lazy asses, which is more than can be said for most governments around the world.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1236703 - 01/21/03 11:15 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

VERY nice.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1236711 - 01/21/03 11:18 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Really bad article, IMO.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Revelation]
    #1236753 - 01/21/03 11:31 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Really bad article, IMO.


Just wondering why?


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Skikid16]
    #1236907 - 01/21/03 12:38 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I would have to agree.

The article while offering a "point of view" doesnt necessarily offer an informed or analytical opinion. Very emotional yes, and it states some strong opinions but it makes quite a few generalizations and doesnt throw much fact into the mix.
Uses too much rhetoric...

as for ...
"I don't think the article was condoning criticism of the US government, it was condoning hatred for the US government, which seems to be spreading."

These days criticism and hatred has a very thin line separating it, when others are concerned. As usual with most conversations on the topic, people get polarized into pro or con, conservative or liberal, etc... While the article may not directly condone criticism, it does not make any allowances or even mention for past greviances with that government. My impression right at this moment is that the article is powerfully pro current govt- which looks to a lot of people like an ignorance or denial of any harm done by the administration.

"I don't love our government, but when I look at it compared to many governments around the world, I can say we have one of the best systems. And we have the freedom to change the government if we decided to get off of our fat, lazy asses, which is more than can be said for most governments around the world. "

Somewhat. The potential for great things is there, there is no doubt about it. But I think the vision of the founders of your country has been perverted into something which can get pretty sick sometimes. Its been a while since I took a US politics course, but if im not mistaken, there has been a shift in the balance of power, and electoral determination away from the individual.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

Edited by TheCaptain (01/21/03 12:51 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1237181 - 01/21/03 02:04 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

That's sort of a stupid article;

I will compose why I feel that way at length after I do some errands and take a shower. But I have more than a few things to say about it.

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1237214 - 01/21/03 02:14 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

there has been a shift in the balance of power, and electoral determination away from the individual.

This country was founded as a republic - we elected officials to make political decisions. In the beginning, only white land owners were allowed to vote. Now everyone over the age of 18 is allowed to vote. The people have the option of putting referandums to vote, bypassing state senates and houses, letting the population decide on the issue. The people now have the option to recall elected officials, if the official shows himself to be unworthy of representation.

Now that I've responded to that one quote, let me continue. This article offers a very informed and analytical opinion. I remember September 11, 2001. I remeber sitting in my US History class, discussing what this would mean. I remember the discussion ended with "NUKE THE ENTIRE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST!" Yet what did we do? We replaced a government openly hospitable to terrorist organizations.

Sure, in the past, during the Cold War, we backed many coups, putting dictators in power just because they were not communist, and vowed to fight communism. The Cold War ended, to the relief of all, and yet the entire world seems to think we are still gung ho in a crusade against communism, saying our only motives must be oil because no one can fathom why a capitalist country might want to do anything that isn't for monetary benifit. After all, capitalism is the root of all evil... right?

Well, despite what the rest of the world wants to believe, or what they're are told to believe, we helped overthrow a tyrannical government and replace it with a democracy in Afgahnistan. The world charges us with murdering innocent civilians for the sake of oil. Nevermind that Saddam invaded Kuwait because of oil. The world is quick to back Saddam, saying he must be telling the truth when he says Iraq doesn't have weapons of mass destruction. Yet they had them during the Persian Gulf War (almost 160,000 Gulf War veterans are on disability). Maybe Saddam is just scared shitless because he knows his time, as a genocidal maniac and leader of Iraq, on this planet is limited. Do you really think someone so openly against western thought would simply destroy all his chemical weapons and stop production of them altogether?

I will support my country when it is just, as I believe the pending conflict with Iraq to be. I do not support many of our government's policies, both domestic (war on drugs, social welfare, public education) and foreign (alliance with Israel). If you want to call this stance caused by "ignorance or denial," you are the one in denial, afraid to accept another point of view.

The world has always hated this country, even before it was the United States - this is nothing new. We didn't let this prevent us from helping you in both the world wars, and we're not going to let it prevent us from saving you now.

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1237648 - 01/21/03 04:16 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I understand that the laws in place allow the individual to cast a vote, that is simple enough, but look at the limited candidates you have a choice of voting for. There is no denying that they often have a history of corporate affiliation.

"This article offers a very informed and analytical opinion."

Im not too sure about that. It doesnt offer up much fact (referances to quotes, history, events from more than one limited persective) to base its argument upon, uses a lot of exagerating and subjective language which keys emotion.

"We replaced a government openly hospitable to terrorist organizations."

...with a government that is equally hospitable to terrorist organizations, and more importantly the idea of constructing a pipeline within Afghan. The Taliban, who were a war lordish power were rivals of the Northern Alliance, the resulting power imbalance within this country led to instability- and not a safe ground for this grand pipeline, which to my knowledge had been proposed years and years ago, but the conditions were not right. So now, the northern alliance is in power, and has a grip on the country. They are no saints- it is not a democracy, and were only fortunate because they were the enemy of the Taliban.

And what of the supposed "War on Terrorism" ? Its interesting to note,to re- consider motives in Afghan, that while there were training camps in that country, the vast majority of these camps are in Kashmir, and in Pakistan. Where are the massive bombing campaigns and "democratization" against those territories?

As for Iraq...
"The world charges us with murdering innocent civilians for the sake of oil." I encourage everyone to read this article.

"Yet they had them during the Persian Gulf War (almost 160,000 Gulf War veterans are on disability). Do you really think someone so openly against western thought would simply destroy all his chemical weapons and stop production of them altogether?"

Weapons of mass destruction were supplied to Iraq by the very same people insisting they are dangerous in his hands at this very moment. Why is it such an imperative thing now, when the infrastructure of Iraq is at its weakest and least threatening that WMD are a danger to everyone?

Also note, WMD were never used during the Gulf War, which only serves to indicate the level of threat Iraq poses. What other opportune time to use chemical and biological agents would there be than when the troops of your "mortal enemy" are running through your attack range???


"saying our only motives must be oil because no one can fathom why a capitalist country might want to do anything that isn't for monetary benifit."

It has been proven historically that US involvement is by and large opportunistic based on a business premise, I encourage someone to try and disprove this. Examine other atrocities and instances of genocide within strategically and economically insignificant territories in the past 20 years and you will see that bombing campaigns and US intervention is nowhere in sight.




"If you want to call this stance caused by "ignorance or denial," you are the one in denial, afraid to accept another point of view."

Its not that Im not open to your point of view, I can totally accept and follow someones argument through the steps. The problem is that the arguments I cannot agree with are based on partial facts, or ignorant of other events that would alter the outcome of a logical and analytical argument.

I encourage you to go beyond mainstream North American media, dig into some intellectual sources on the history of this problem and find out what really happened, in order to make sense of whats happening now.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1237818 - 01/21/03 05:10 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

That is a DAMN good article. Anyone who believes the US has just cause to attack Iraq right now would be hard pressed to explain why after reading that. Not that any of them will read it.

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1237860 - 01/21/03 05:26 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Whether I agree with the article or not I'm not sure, but I do know that it smells alot like official state propaganda to me. Why do they even call it a "newspaper"?

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1237959 - 01/21/03 06:13 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Just for the record let me clarify why I posted this.  I posted it to gauge opinion and to know which of you is my enemy.  Now don't get me wrong.  I am not talking about a personal enemy.  I am speaking of the caliber of individual that is against my Country and de facto, against me.

It's not a personal thing.  I see thinly veiled hatred for us as Americans here at the Shroomery and I think it stinks.  But as this is a world community I have to live with it.  Just as those of you who hate my Country have to live with the fact that I am here at the Shroomery as well.  Not much you can do about that really.  And not much you can do about the fact that most of us here at the Shroomery are Americans.

The allegations of "rhetoric" are made by someone who probably doesn't know the real meaning of the word which primarily means the art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.  Rhetoric is one thing, mere rhetoric is another thing entirely.

I am part Native American so I know just a little, personally, about the flaws of MY Country.  But that does not negate the fact that it is MY Country.  I am duty bound to defend her because she is my home.  This is where I live.  Just as if you attacked my house I would defend it as well.

Please don't misunderstand me here.  It isn't personal at all.  But as each of you are representatives of your respective countries I take note of the individuals that live there and their opinions of my home.  It helps to clarify things for me.

As a political analyst/'consultant I know all too well the flaws of politicians as well.  This is besides the fact that I am a formerly elected Democrat myself.  :shocked:

So thank you all for your opinions about my home.  I appreciate it very much.

G'day 

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Offlinezeronio
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1238055 - 01/21/03 08:05 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

You say that this is not personal but you sound offended. I have many friends and relatives over there and I never thought that by criticizing USA I attack them personally.
What is mostly criticized here is USA foreign policy. I'd like to say that your home (country) is much more than that. About 90% of my favorite music, movies & web sites - including shroomery come from USA. And the remaining 10% were strongly influenced by it. How could I hate that? For me the science & culture are the real achievements of a nation, not some shit splattered around by politicians.
And while I love my country I have absolutely no respect for our politicians. I could criticize my country & Europe, but nobody really cares about it.

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: An English article on America [Re: zeronio]
    #1238109 - 01/21/03 08:53 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I gotta agree. This country would be awesome were it not for our polititian's increasing desire to control the world. Historically, that's always come to a bad ending because the world doesn't like to be controlled.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1238119 - 01/21/03 09:16 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

That whole article makes me sick. It is bleating sentimentality, if anyone wants to deny the fact that 9/11 had anything to do with unjust WESTERN policy in the 3rd world then thats fine, you are welcome to your delusions.

The Mirror newspaper is also the most outspoken against War in Iraq (todays headline - This war is wrong).

It is also the most vocal in pointing out the reasons - American desire for oil.

30% of this country support war, and thats only with a UN mandate.



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Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1238123 - 01/21/03 09:22 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Never had you down as a flag waver, thought you were a bit more sophisticated than that!

Just for the record i hate America - i,e bush and his cronies and I hate England - Blair and his cronies.

I love much of America - Literature, music, sport etc just as i love much of England.

Why draw lines in the sand? I do truly consider myself a planetary citizen first and foremost. sounds corny i know but i couldnt care less.


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Always Smi2le

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InvisibleG a n j a
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Re: An English article on America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1238136 - 01/21/03 09:42 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

What he said ^


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: An English article on America [Re: G a n j a]
    #1238616 - 01/22/03 04:32 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

What he said ^^^  :grin: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An English article on America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1238719 - 01/22/03 05:20 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Amen Gazz. Tony Parsons makes the fundamental error of identifying America with the policies of Dubya and his cronies.

The America I know deserves so much better.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1238828 - 01/22/03 06:04 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

This is going to take a while :wink:

Quote:

I understand that the laws in place allow the individual to cast a vote, that is simple enough, but look at the limited candidates you have a choice of voting for.




We have countless political parties, as well as individuals running for office.  In 1999, we had 11 presidential candidates.  Granted, in national elections, Democrats and Republicans hold a HUGE majority of offices, large numbers of votes for independant parties (public opinion) can sway the stances of elected officials.

Quote:

It doesnt offer up much fact (referances to quotes, history, events from more than one limited persective) to base its argument upon, uses a lot of exagerating and subjective language which keys emotion.




It doesn't make any claims that need to be backed up by historical evidence.

Quote:

The Taliban, who were a war lordish power were rivals of the Northern Alliance, the resulting power imbalance within this country led to instability- and not a safe ground for this grand pipeline, which to my knowledge had been proposed years and years ago, but the conditions were not right.




We gained more allies who are now willing to sell us oil.  Oil was not our primary motive for attacking Afghanistan, the fact that the Taliban claimed to have bin Laden in custody and refused to turn him over to us was the reason.  If oil were the only reason for attacking this country, we would have done so long ago, when we were supporting the Taliban against the USSR.

Quote:

They are no saints- it is not a democracy, and were only fortunate because they were the enemy of the Taliban.




No, it's not a democracy.  It's a republic now, and the Northern Alliance shares power with many other opposition groups.

Quote:

And what of the supposed "War on Terrorism" ? Its interesting to note,to re- consider motives in Afghan, that while there were training camps in that country, the vast majority of these camps are in Kashmir, and in Pakistan.




You have seen the cries of outrage brought on by the war with the Taliban, whom we had good reason to attack (bin Laden).  Image the outrage that would ensue an attack on Pakistan, a country which (as far as the world is concerned) has nothing to hide.  That said, we should wipe out the many camps in Pakistan... maybe we're afraid they'll nuke India?

Quote:

Why is it such an imperative thing now, when the infrastructure of Iraq is at its weakest and least threatening that WMD are a danger to everyone?

Also note, WMD were never used during the Gulf War, which only serves to indicate the level of threat Iraq poses. What other opportune time to use chemical and biological agents would there be than when the troops of your "mortal enemy" are running through your attack range??? 




If we invade Iraq when it is weak, we will rid the world of Saddam with the lowest amount of casualities.  Also, there were thousands upon thousands of cases of Gulf War Syndrome.  The cause of this disease has yet to be discovered, but the symptoms (memory lapses, fatigue, joint pains, rashes, headaches, dizzy spells, cancer, etc.) are consistant with chemical exposure.  Plus, there was around 320 tons of uranium dust dumped on the desert where we fought.  Sounds like chemical warfare to me.

Quote:

It has been proven historically that US involvement is by and large opportunistic based on a business premise, I encourage someone to try and disprove this. Examine other atrocities and instances of genocide within strategically and economically insignificant territories in the past 20 years and you will see that bombing campaigns and US intervention is nowhere in sight.




WWI and WWII were both fought by us for our protection.  Rather than cause the wars, business acted as an invaluable aid to help us win.  The war in Korea was fought to contain communism.  The war in Vietnam was supposed to be fought for the same reason, though I believe it was fought because LBJ wanted to go down in history as one fo the great presidents.  The Gulf War was fought by the UN because of Saddam's refusal to leave Kuwait.

We also sent troops to Kosovo and Somalia to fight madmen participating in genocide, in the 1990s.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1238860 - 01/22/03 06:14 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Oil was not our primary motive for attacking Afghanistan

Of course it was. Or do you think a Unocal man being installed as the puppet leader and the oil pipeline already being built is just coincidence?

bin Laden in custody and refused to turn him over to us was the reason

So why have you abandoned the search for Bin Laden now the oil pipeline can be built? If he was the reason you went to war why arn't you still at war trying to find him instead of moving onto another oil-rich country? Use your head.

and the Northern Alliance shares power with many other opposition groups

Don't be silly. The Northern Alliance shares power with no-one. These guys are vicious warlords, they do not believe in sharing power. They rule their provinces.

whom we had good reason to attack (bin Laden).

Whom you never found?

WWI and WWII were both fought by us for our protection

Pardon? Was Hitler intending to ship across that 3000 mile ocean and invade america any time soon?

The Gulf War was fought by the UN because of Saddam's refusal to leave Kuwait.

Israel has refused to leave the west bank and flouted UN resolutions for 30 years. Why havn't we invaded them?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

Edited by Alex123 (01/22/03 06:16 AM)

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1239011 - 01/22/03 07:22 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Was Hitler intending to ship across that 3000 mile ocean and invade america any time soon?


He had German U boats off of our shore, sinking our ships, so given the opportunity, I wouldn't put it past him to try to invade the US. If he could have conquered Europe, why wouldn't he have just moved on to North America.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1239030 - 01/22/03 07:30 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Rhetoric- Artificial eloquence; language that is showy and elaborate but largely empty of clear ideas.
-from Websters.


"
These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or
Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.
The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
September 11. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering

Evidence? Fact? Published referance to this alliance?

Remember, remember - Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men
phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.
Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning
skyscrapers.
Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.
Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of
the planes with her mum.
Remember, remember - And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11
in anything like the way it could have.

Theres nothing being discussed here. Intensive reliance on emotional response to evoke thought

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked up without a trial in Camp X-ray? .
So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

Contorts these events, uses emotional response in light of factual, analytical language

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.
That it didn't is a sign of strength . American voices are already being
raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in
the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered
innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination ?

Fact to base this on? And yes, many Islamic leaders have spoken out against this. This last line directs hatred for Islam as a whole, in the absence of any reason or evidence

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and
didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most
powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not
provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if
America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell
like you wouldn't believe.

The last two paragraphs arent really based on anything more than speculation as to our reactions. Could have, should, didnt, has no place in any argument based on actual events.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of
the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and
the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched . How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world ? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you
haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

This just gets more rediculous, now the article is attacking Muslims as a whole? The writers slant seems to be very racist. Furthermore no evidence is given why we shouldnt blame America for the lack of democracy.



I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.
But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above
all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion,
or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and
we should start remembering that.

Where does the author get this idea? Totally an assumption

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department.

How exactly can the fate of individuals determine the record of foreign relations???


To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the
range center, Oh Mighty One!

...Were told by the same people wanting to gather public support for a war. How come no one said anything about these atrocities when he was a great ally, and getting chemical and bio weapons from us?

Remember, remember, September 11 -

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.

Im not too sure about that...
No, do more than remember. Never forget."



Dont look to this sort of article to base your opinions upon, it is entirely empty of argument, fact, and any sort of political analysis



--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1239053 - 01/22/03 07:39 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Of course it was. Or do you think a Unocal man being installed as the puppet leader and the oil pipeline already being built is just coincidence?




I never said oil wasn't a motive at all, I said it wasn't our primary motive. Seeing as how neither side can be proven, however, I'll leave it at that.

Quote:

So why have you abandoned the search for Bin Laden now the oil pipeline can be built? If he was the reason you went to war why arn't you still at war trying to find him instead of moving onto another oil-rich country?




We're still after him, it just isn't front page news every time an al-Quada (sic?) conspiritor is caught, now that the world has moved on to bashing us for Iraq.

Quote:

Don't be silly. The Northern Alliance shares power with no-one.




Yes they do.

Quote:

Pardon? Was Hitler intending to ship across that 3000 mile ocean and invade america any time soon?




Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, we declared war on them, Germany declared war on us. I'm guessing most of the world would agree that we acted in self defence.

Quote:

Israel has refused to leave the west bank and flouted UN resolutions for 30 years. Why havn't we invaded them?




Iraq invaded Kuwait for oil. Israel holds the West Bank because they were attacked by Egypt and Jordon, among other Arab nations. The situations are nothing alike.

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1239109 - 01/22/03 07:57 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I wasn't going to reply to this thread again but since this a side note I'll make an exception.

With all due respect:

Rhetoric:

"1a. The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively. b. A treatise or book discussing this art. "

Taken from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

"noun [U]
speech or writing which is intended to be effective and persuasive, or specialized the study of the ways of using language effectively"


Taken from Cambridge Dictionaries Online

"1.
(a) The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
(b)A treatise or book discussing this art. "


Taken from yourDictionary.com

"1 : the art of speaking or writing effectively: as a : the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times b : the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion"

Taken from Merriam-Webster Online

I suggest you get a better dictionary. The primary meaning of this word is clear and often a confusion for those unacquainted with precise language. You meant mere rhetoric but that is not the primary meaning of the word. In some circles your using it could be construed as equivocating.

Carry on

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1239115 - 01/22/03 08:00 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

These are going to get LONG...

Granted, in national elections, Democrats and Republicans hold a HUGE majority of offices

That was what I was referring to. Other parties not corporately funded dont have the finincial means to grant them the same exposure as these two, hence their low runnings.

It doesn't make any claims that need to be backed up by historical evidence.

??!?!?! It sure does. Like I said before, read some history, articles form another perspective, and you'll see how the opinions of that article are based on fallacy.

We gained more allies who are now willing to sell us oil.

as Saddam was an ally and we supported years ago, when he was still ruthless. There is a viscious cycle that is perpetuated by Foreign policy.

No, it's not a democracy. It's a republic now, and the Northern Alliance shares power with many other opposition groups.

What are your sources on this one??

ou have seen the cries of outrage brought on by the war with the Taliban, whom we had good reason to attack (bin Laden).

I have also seen those cries of outrage go unconsidered. Millions (?) of people organized during the vietnam war couldnt stop that conflict, you assume a couple thousand here and there will stop this one?

If this were only a "War on Terrorism" I would support it fuly, but where is the concern where bin Laden is now? Oh yah, everyone forgot about that. Anthrax comming from within the country? Who go caught on that one? This conflict does not take logical steps to stopping the terrorist threats, its plain as day.

If we invade Iraq when it is weak, we will rid the world of Saddam with the lowest amount of casualities

Sure, but the fact that it IS weak should indicate that it doesnt pose a threat to the US, or the surronding countries for that matter.

Plus, there was around 320 tons of uranium dust dumped on the desert where we fought. Sounds like chemical warfare to me.

DPU rounds (uranium), used by coalition forces are the closest possibility to this phenomena. NO chemical agents were detected or deployed during the conflict. Evidence supports this.

WWI and WWII were both fought by us for our protection. Rather than cause the wars, business acted as an invaluable aid to help us win.

WWII? Yes, i agree with that. WWI? No. There was absolutely no danger to American territory or American lives at this point. Shipping could expect losses, and in of itself is NOT an excuse to go to war.

The Gulf War was fought by the UN because of Saddam's refusal to leave Kuwait.

"US Ambassador April Glaspie told Saddam in 1990 that "We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait."
This area of the world has seen NUMEROUS cross border conflicts, but there has been no intervention.

We also sent troops to Kosovo and Somalia to fight madmen participating in genocide, in the 1990s.

That conflict, by and large was over by the time the US entered into the fray. The genocide conducted by Serbian forces was done years prior to the start of the US campaign, and the rest of the world knew about it. UN forces were serving there three years before US intervention.


Like I said before, I can agree with your argument based upon the things youve said to me, but I know of much more additional information that changes the way I think about the situation.




--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

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OfflineGazzBut
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Last seen: 5 months, 15 days
Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1239134 - 01/22/03 08:08 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Well, despite what the rest of the world wants to believe, or what they're are told to believe, we helped overthrow a tyrannical government and replace it with a democracy in Afgahnistan.




A few facts for you. I know you detest the oil word and dont believe it is the motive for any of the actions your govt. takes but....

1) Unocal had been wanting to put a pipe through Afghanistan since the early 90's
2) Pakistan Ambassador was advised that U.S were intending to overthrow the Taleban. He was told this in JULY. 2 months prior to Sep 11. (This was reported on the BBC, I will try and find the link if you disbelieve me.)
3)The new leader of Afghanistan was an employee of Exxon (One of the companies who stand to benefit most for the pipeline) up unitl 2001.
4)Remind me, what bu$$iness are George W and most of his buddies in the govt involved in?

Now this isnt my opinion. This is the information which I base my opinion on. How do you read it?
By the way, when were the elections in the Great democracy of Afghanistan held? Who actually voted?

Quote:

Nevermind that Saddam invaded Kuwait because of oil.




Yes because the Kuwaiti's were slant drilling into the Iraqi owned section of the oil field which they shared. Kuwait were also artificially effecting the price of oil to the detriment of Iraq. Kuwait was basically created by the UK and we still hold massive influence there. The UK is equally to blame in this whole affair. The rest of Europe are just gutted they didnt get their hands on it first, which is probabaly part of the reason the French and Germans dont share our zeal to get our hands on even more power in the area, ooops sorry I mean liberate the Iraqi people and save the world from imaginary weapons!!
Now we could have dimplomatically intervened to stop Iraq invading - remember back then we were all good buddies,Sadaam would have listened to his old mates, we could have cut a deal but we didnt. In fact April Gillespie Ambassador to Iraq is reported as telling the Iraqis that the US had no interest in Arab against Arab conflicts.

Quote:

Maybe Saddam is just scared shitless because he knows his time, as a genocidal maniac and leader of Iraq, on this planet is limited. Do you really think someone so openly against western thought would simply destroy all his chemical weapons and stop production of them altogether?





Sadaam wasnt against Western thought - we were buddies remember. His opinions may have changed though once he had been double crossed and his country bombed to fuck by his so called mates.

Quote:

The world has always hated this country, even before it was the United States - this is nothing new. We didn't let this prevent us from helping you in both the world wars, and we're not going to let it prevent us from saving you now.




I hate western imperialism as a whole. It just so happens your the biggest fish so you take most of the flak. But because your the biggest fish you also make the biggest splash in the pond too.




--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 15 days
Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1239157 - 01/22/03 08:17 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plus, there was around 320 tons of uranium dust dumped on the desert where we fought. Sounds like chemical warfare to me.





You do know who dumped the Uranium dont you? let me give you a clue - It certainly wasnt Sadaam.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1239197 - 01/22/03 08:28 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

You should post the enrtire definition....

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
1a. The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively. b. A treatise or book discussing this art. 2. Skill in using language effectively and persuasively. 3a. A style of speaking or writing, especially the language of a particular subject: fiery political rhetoric. b. Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous: His offers of compromise were mere rhetoric . 4. Verbal communication; discourse

Cambridge Dictionaries Online
rhetoric
noun [U]
speech or writing which is intended to be effective and persuasive, or specialized the study of the ways of using language effectively
I was swayed by her rhetoric into donating all my savings to the charity.
How far the president will be able to translate his campaign rhetoric into action remains to be seen.
SPECIALIZED He is a professor of rhetoric at the University of Naples.

(disapproving) Rhetoric is also clever and persuasive language which is not sincere or has no real meaning.
The politician's speech was full of empty (=meaningless) rhetoric.

yourDictionary.com
rhet?o?ric
n.
The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
A treatise or book discussing this art.
Skill in using language effectively and persuasively.
A style of speaking or writing, especially the language of a particular subject: fiery political rhetoric.
Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous: His offers of compromise were mere rhetoric.

There are also several definitions of mere. Should I use a prefix to define those?

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language
mere1
Inflected forms: Superlative mer?est
1. Being nothing more than what is specified: a mere child; a mere 50 cents an hour. 2. Considered apart from anything else: shocked by the mere idea. 3. Small; slight: could detect only the merest whisper. 4. Obsolete Pure; unadulterated.

Placing Mere in front of the word could also create confusion, and let alone, its not entirely necessary- you understood what I meant




--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1239261 - 01/22/03 08:44 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Mr. Mushrooms and Captain, you're both right about the term. It is true, though, that dictionaries tend to list the most common definitions first. Maybe Mr. Mushrooms' distinction would clear up confusion, or maybe context alone will do.

As to the article at hand, I agree with Captain.

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1239291 - 01/22/03 08:55 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I don't disbelieve you, but I would be interested to see where you got some of this information.

I do believe oil has a large part to play in this war with the Middle East, but I don't believe it is the only reason.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1239303 - 01/22/03 08:58 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I'll post some links tommorow.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1239319 - 01/22/03 09:04 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Here's how I see it--There are plenty of "reasons" to be found to wage a war with a whole list of nations all over the world. Hell, we could probably find something wrong with Samoa.

But Samoa doesn't have anything desirable to the businesses the U.S. government serves. But just you wait--when tapa cloth replaces oil as the world's fuel source, that'll change.

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: hongomon]
    #1239474 - 01/22/03 09:58 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Smartass  :wink:


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1239511 - 01/22/03 10:08 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I do believe oil has a large part to play in this war with the Middle East, but I don't believe it is the only reason.

This is the same pointless nonsense you pulled last time. Are you just going to keep saying "Can you prove it's only for oil and for no other reason?" again?

Do you do your job for one reason? If they stopped paying you would you still go to work? Payment isn't the only reason you go to work but without payment it would be completly pointless right? Just like invading Iraq wouldn't be happening without oil. Understand?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1239549 - 01/22/03 10:19 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Exactly. If you admit it is part of the reason and your govt chooses to flatly deny it in the face of mounting evidence both historical and current what does that tell you?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1239993 - 01/22/03 12:43 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

You should post the enrtire (sic) definition.... [snip]

Placing Mere in front of the word could also create confusion, and let alone, its not entirely necessary- you understood what I meant

Don't assume and presume to tell me what I understood or didn't understand. The combination of the words together is clear, your meaning was not.

You posts are quite instructive though. Just probably not in the way you mean them to be.

Aye aye Captain! (seldom wrong and never unsure)

[hand snaps briskly to full salute and back down again]

Equivocate away!



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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: Xlea321]
    #1240071 - 01/22/03 01:04 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

It was a mistake to even reply to your post. Sorry Alex, even the lefties on this board know you're an idiot. You're like Bivalve, only on the opposite end of the political spectrum.

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1240172 - 01/22/03 01:36 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

ahhhh....
this is going to get very time consuming. So you mean to tell me that the only thing you are going to find vulnerable to argue against in my entire post is the use of a synonym?????

ok, so be it...
now let me get this straight, in order to correctly use any other synonym in the english language I have to add an additonal word in front of it? Take 'wind' for example, should I use "Mere wind" ?? What? Really, I want to know the correct way of using synonyms with multiple meanings, and posting prefixes which are also synonyms....

Just probably not in the way you mean them to be.
um, "dont assume or presume to tell me" what I mean...

Thanks, Mr Mushrooms (who is also seldom wrong, and never unsure)


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1240238 - 01/22/03 02:11 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks, Mr Mushrooms (who is also seldom wrong, and never unsure)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Well, at least we understand one another. :wink:

As far as my replies to you were concerned I was just mimicing you by picking nits, odd specks, and sundry lint off your rebuttal as you saw fit to do with the article.

You know, imitation is the highest form of flattery. :wink:

As I enjoy reading the responses in this thread more than I enjoy gumming it up with posts of no substance (not that that has ever stopped me before) I am dismissing myself from further replies.

Carry on "Captain" 

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1240423 - 01/22/03 03:13 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I am dismissing myself from further replies 


I gots me 5 bucks that says you post again in this thread. :grin:


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1240555 - 01/22/03 04:09 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, isnt this supposed to be a DISCUSSION board?

I told ya the article didnt have any fact to back it up, and went further to illustrate the uses of "mere" rhetoric in that piece in place of evidence or political analysis. You just didnt want to hear it, and decided to attack synonyms... go figure.

As far as my replies to you were concerned I was just mimicing you by picking nits, odd specks, and sundry lint off your rebuttal as you saw fit to do with the article.

Mimicking me? Hell, I was picking nits and specks because thats all that article has. Give me something more substantial - an article that provides some recognized fact or historical referances instead of hot air - and maybe we'll see what happens.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1240917 - 01/22/03 06:09 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

It was a mistake to even reply to your post

Just making sure Gazz was aware of what you're like before he wasted any time on you buddy. Why so hurt? Were you looking forward to saying "But is it JUST about oil?" for 10 posts and then saying "You clearly cannot prove it is JUST about oil" again?  :grin:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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