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Anonymous

An English article on America
    #1236361 - 01/21/03 11:33 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002

One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass
murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless
cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's
Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage
in the Nazi concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that
surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.
Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the
perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's
comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.
There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country;
too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than
Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me.
More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are
bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a
century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well
as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands
of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens
of countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we
so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the
planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's
son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.
And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for
their meticulously planned slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or
Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The
anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the
Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering
from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it
likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
September 11.

Remember, remember - Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men
phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.
Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning
skyscrapers.
Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.
Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of
the planes with her mum.
Remember, remember - And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11
in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked up without a trial in Camp X-ray?
Pass the Kleenex.
So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired
their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe
next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot.
That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being
raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in
the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered
innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that
the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and
didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most
powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not
provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if
America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell
like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of
the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and
the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched
countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the
Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand - assuming you
haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.
But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above
all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich,
free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion,
or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and
we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the
loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning
towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the
hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell
it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York
Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we
were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up
rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the
range center, Oh Mighty One!

Remember, remember, September 11 -

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against
America.

No, do more than remember. Never forget.

----------------------------------

And with our President I echo, "God Bless America."


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1236407 - 01/21/03 11:47 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against
America.



See, I agreed with the article up to that point. Yes it was horrible, yes it was a great atrocity, but I don't think it was one of the greatest in human history. What about Rwanda, the holocaust, hell even Hiroshima.

But other than that I do agree with the article. My positioned has been shifting on this subject for a while, and I know am beginning to see that this country is great, granted we have our faults, but then again, we do much good.

Thanks for the article, it is very pertinent.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Skikid16]
    #1236660 - 01/21/03 01:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That article is pretty heavy on the rhetoric...

I mean, yah, America has done some pretty great shit in the past...but having people more critical of government might have adverted things like Saddam from comming into power in the first place. Those "nut jobs" are on the recieving end of some pretty horrible shit that we send their way. Doesnt make them great either tho...


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1236675 - 01/21/03 01:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think the article was condoning criticism of the US government, it was condoning hatred for the US government, which seems to be spreading.

I don't love our government, but when I look at it compared to many governments around the world, I can say we have one of the best systems. And we have the freedom to change the government if we decided to get off of our fat, lazy asses, which is more than can be said for most governments around the world.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1236703 - 01/21/03 01:15 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

VERY nice.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1236711 - 01/21/03 01:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Really bad article, IMO.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Revelation]
    #1236753 - 01/21/03 01:31 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Really bad article, IMO.


Just wondering why?


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Skikid16]
    #1236907 - 01/21/03 02:38 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I would have to agree.

The article while offering a "point of view" doesnt necessarily offer an informed or analytical opinion. Very emotional yes, and it states some strong opinions but it makes quite a few generalizations and doesnt throw much fact into the mix.
Uses too much rhetoric...

as for ...
"I don't think the article was condoning criticism of the US government, it was condoning hatred for the US government, which seems to be spreading."

These days criticism and hatred has a very thin line separating it, when others are concerned. As usual with most conversations on the topic, people get polarized into pro or con, conservative or liberal, etc... While the article may not directly condone criticism, it does not make any allowances or even mention for past greviances with that government. My impression right at this moment is that the article is powerfully pro current govt- which looks to a lot of people like an ignorance or denial of any harm done by the administration.

"I don't love our government, but when I look at it compared to many governments around the world, I can say we have one of the best systems. And we have the freedom to change the government if we decided to get off of our fat, lazy asses, which is more than can be said for most governments around the world. "

Somewhat. The potential for great things is there, there is no doubt about it. But I think the vision of the founders of your country has been perverted into something which can get pretty sick sometimes. Its been a while since I took a US politics course, but if im not mistaken, there has been a shift in the balance of power, and electoral determination away from the individual.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


Edited by TheCaptain (01/21/03 02:51 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1237181 - 01/21/03 04:04 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That's sort of a stupid article;

I will compose why I feel that way at length after I do some errands and take a shower. But I have more than a few things to say about it.


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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1237214 - 01/21/03 04:14 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

there has been a shift in the balance of power, and electoral determination away from the individual.

This country was founded as a republic - we elected officials to make political decisions. In the beginning, only white land owners were allowed to vote. Now everyone over the age of 18 is allowed to vote. The people have the option of putting referandums to vote, bypassing state senates and houses, letting the population decide on the issue. The people now have the option to recall elected officials, if the official shows himself to be unworthy of representation.

Now that I've responded to that one quote, let me continue. This article offers a very informed and analytical opinion. I remember September 11, 2001. I remeber sitting in my US History class, discussing what this would mean. I remember the discussion ended with "NUKE THE ENTIRE FUCKING MIDDLE EAST!" Yet what did we do? We replaced a government openly hospitable to terrorist organizations.

Sure, in the past, during the Cold War, we backed many coups, putting dictators in power just because they were not communist, and vowed to fight communism. The Cold War ended, to the relief of all, and yet the entire world seems to think we are still gung ho in a crusade against communism, saying our only motives must be oil because no one can fathom why a capitalist country might want to do anything that isn't for monetary benifit. After all, capitalism is the root of all evil... right?

Well, despite what the rest of the world wants to believe, or what they're are told to believe, we helped overthrow a tyrannical government and replace it with a democracy in Afgahnistan. The world charges us with murdering innocent civilians for the sake of oil. Nevermind that Saddam invaded Kuwait because of oil. The world is quick to back Saddam, saying he must be telling the truth when he says Iraq doesn't have weapons of mass destruction. Yet they had them during the Persian Gulf War (almost 160,000 Gulf War veterans are on disability). Maybe Saddam is just scared shitless because he knows his time, as a genocidal maniac and leader of Iraq, on this planet is limited. Do you really think someone so openly against western thought would simply destroy all his chemical weapons and stop production of them altogether?

I will support my country when it is just, as I believe the pending conflict with Iraq to be. I do not support many of our government's policies, both domestic (war on drugs, social welfare, public education) and foreign (alliance with Israel). If you want to call this stance caused by "ignorance or denial," you are the one in denial, afraid to accept another point of view.

The world has always hated this country, even before it was the United States - this is nothing new. We didn't let this prevent us from helping you in both the world wars, and we're not going to let it prevent us from saving you now.


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OfflineTheCaptain
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Re: An English article on America [Re: Anonymous]
    #1237648 - 01/21/03 06:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I understand that the laws in place allow the individual to cast a vote, that is simple enough, but look at the limited candidates you have a choice of voting for. There is no denying that they often have a history of corporate affiliation.

"This article offers a very informed and analytical opinion."

Im not too sure about that. It doesnt offer up much fact (referances to quotes, history, events from more than one limited persective) to base its argument upon, uses a lot of exagerating and subjective language which keys emotion.

"We replaced a government openly hospitable to terrorist organizations."

...with a government that is equally hospitable to terrorist organizations, and more importantly the idea of constructing a pipeline within Afghan. The Taliban, who were a war lordish power were rivals of the Northern Alliance, the resulting power imbalance within this country led to instability- and not a safe ground for this grand pipeline, which to my knowledge had been proposed years and years ago, but the conditions were not right. So now, the northern alliance is in power, and has a grip on the country. They are no saints- it is not a democracy, and were only fortunate because they were the enemy of the Taliban.

And what of the supposed "War on Terrorism" ? Its interesting to note,to re- consider motives in Afghan, that while there were training camps in that country, the vast majority of these camps are in Kashmir, and in Pakistan. Where are the massive bombing campaigns and "democratization" against those territories?

As for Iraq...
"The world charges us with murdering innocent civilians for the sake of oil." I encourage everyone to read this article.

"Yet they had them during the Persian Gulf War (almost 160,000 Gulf War veterans are on disability). Do you really think someone so openly against western thought would simply destroy all his chemical weapons and stop production of them altogether?"

Weapons of mass destruction were supplied to Iraq by the very same people insisting they are dangerous in his hands at this very moment. Why is it such an imperative thing now, when the infrastructure of Iraq is at its weakest and least threatening that WMD are a danger to everyone?

Also note, WMD were never used during the Gulf War, which only serves to indicate the level of threat Iraq poses. What other opportune time to use chemical and biological agents would there be than when the troops of your "mortal enemy" are running through your attack range???


"saying our only motives must be oil because no one can fathom why a capitalist country might want to do anything that isn't for monetary benifit."

It has been proven historically that US involvement is by and large opportunistic based on a business premise, I encourage someone to try and disprove this. Examine other atrocities and instances of genocide within strategically and economically insignificant territories in the past 20 years and you will see that bombing campaigns and US intervention is nowhere in sight.




"If you want to call this stance caused by "ignorance or denial," you are the one in denial, afraid to accept another point of view."

Its not that Im not open to your point of view, I can totally accept and follow someones argument through the steps. The problem is that the arguments I cannot agree with are based on partial facts, or ignorant of other events that would alter the outcome of a logical and analytical argument.

I encourage you to go beyond mainstream North American media, dig into some intellectual sources on the history of this problem and find out what really happened, in order to make sense of whats happening now.


--------------------
"I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."


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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: TheCaptain]
    #1237818 - 01/21/03 07:10 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That is a DAMN good article. Anyone who believes the US has just cause to attack Iraq right now would be hard pressed to explain why after reading that. Not that any of them will read it.


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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1237860 - 01/21/03 07:26 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Whether I agree with the article or not I'm not sure, but I do know that it smells alot like official state propaganda to me. Why do they even call it a "newspaper"?


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Anonymous

Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1237959 - 01/21/03 08:13 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Just for the record let me clarify why I posted this.  I posted it to gauge opinion and to know which of you is my enemy.  Now don't get me wrong.  I am not talking about a personal enemy.  I am speaking of the caliber of individual that is against my Country and de facto, against me.

It's not a personal thing.  I see thinly veiled hatred for us as Americans here at the Shroomery and I think it stinks.  But as this is a world community I have to live with it.  Just as those of you who hate my Country have to live with the fact that I am here at the Shroomery as well.  Not much you can do about that really.  And not much you can do about the fact that most of us here at the Shroomery are Americans.

The allegations of "rhetoric" are made by someone who probably doesn't know the real meaning of the word which primarily means the art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.  Rhetoric is one thing, mere rhetoric is another thing entirely.

I am part Native American so I know just a little, personally, about the flaws of MY Country.  But that does not negate the fact that it is MY Country.  I am duty bound to defend her because she is my home.  This is where I live.  Just as if you attacked my house I would defend it as well.

Please don't misunderstand me here.  It isn't personal at all.  But as each of you are representatives of your respective countries I take note of the individuals that live there and their opinions of my home.  It helps to clarify things for me.

As a political analyst/'consultant I know all too well the flaws of politicians as well.  This is besides the fact that I am a formerly elected Democrat myself.  :shocked:

So thank you all for your opinions about my home.  I appreciate it very much.

G'day 


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1238055 - 01/21/03 10:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You say that this is not personal but you sound offended. I have many friends and relatives over there and I never thought that by criticizing USA I attack them personally.
What is mostly criticized here is USA foreign policy. I'd like to say that your home (country) is much more than that. About 90% of my favorite music, movies & web sites - including shroomery come from USA. And the remaining 10% were strongly influenced by it. How could I hate that? For me the science & culture are the real achievements of a nation, not some shit splattered around by politicians.
And while I love my country I have absolutely no respect for our politicians. I could criticize my country & Europe, but nobody really cares about it.


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: An English article on America [Re: zeronio]
    #1238109 - 01/21/03 10:53 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I gotta agree. This country would be awesome were it not for our polititian's increasing desire to control the world. Historically, that's always come to a bad ending because the world doesn't like to be controlled.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1238119 - 01/21/03 11:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That whole article makes me sick. It is bleating sentimentality, if anyone wants to deny the fact that 9/11 had anything to do with unjust WESTERN policy in the 3rd world then thats fine, you are welcome to your delusions.

The Mirror newspaper is also the most outspoken against War in Iraq (todays headline - This war is wrong).

It is also the most vocal in pointing out the reasons - American desire for oil.

30% of this country support war, and thats only with a UN mandate.



--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: An English article on America [Re: ]
    #1238123 - 01/21/03 11:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Never had you down as a flag waver, thought you were a bit more sophisticated than that!

Just for the record i hate America - i,e bush and his cronies and I hate England - Blair and his cronies.

I love much of America - Literature, music, sport etc just as i love much of England.

Why draw lines in the sand? I do truly consider myself a planetary citizen first and foremost. sounds corny i know but i couldnt care less.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleG a n j a
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Re: An English article on America [Re: GazzBut]
    #1238136 - 01/21/03 11:42 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What he said ^


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: An English article on America [Re: G a n j a]
    #1238616 - 01/22/03 06:32 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What he said ^^^  :grin: 


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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