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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12727519 - 06/11/10 07:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Only the Dem socialists? Why not your party's socialists, too?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Redstorm]
    #12727653 - 06/11/10 07:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Only the Dem socialists? Why not your party's socialists, too?




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinedomite
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12730676 - 06/12/10 11:39 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

domite said:
Wait zappa, I was drunk at the barbeque but I thought I remembered you saying how the way this country is run is a bunch of bullshit, ect. ect.

Why is someone who exposes fucked up shit that the country is doing a traitor?




Exposing fucked up shit?  Hardly.  Number 1, the helicopter attack that killed the reporters was entirely righteous.  Number 2, this guy was not elected to any policy making position and it is traitorous for him to have passed on state secrets (and I most certainly do believe that some secrets are essential).  Number 3,  I suspect my idea of the country being run poorly is vastly different from his.  In case you don't know, I want all of the Dem socialists run out of office, out of town and out of our lives entirely.  Then we can work on chopping down the power grabs of the social conservatives.




So where in your spectrum is the importance of the government getting into wars for corporate interests?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: domite]
    #12730965 - 06/12/10 01:07 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Oy.  What wars would those be?


--------------------


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: domite]
    #12769805 - 06/19/10 06:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

With Rumored Manhunt for Wikileaks Founder and Arrest of Alleged Leaker of Video Showing Iraq Killings, Obama Admin Escalates Crackdown on Whistleblowers of Classified Information
Quote:

Pentagon investigators are reportedly still searching for Wikileaks co-founder Julian Assange, who helped release a classified US military video showing a US helicopter gunship indiscriminately firing on Iraqi civilians. The US military recently arrested Army Specialist Bradley Manning, who may have passed on the video to Wikileaks. Manning’s arrest and the hunt for Assange have put the spotlight on the Obama administration’s campaign against whistleblowers and leakers of classified information.




http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/17/wikileaks_whistleblowers


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: ScavengerType]
    #12769840 - 06/19/10 06:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Whistleblowers?:rofl2:  How about traitors?


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12770407 - 06/19/10 08:54 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

the 1st amendment says they're patroits


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12772863 - 06/20/10 12:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No it doesn't.


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12772926 - 06/20/10 12:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

maybe you just lack the fundamental reading skills, that whole
freedom of the press/speech says they are patriots by publishing this


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12772967 - 06/20/10 01:01 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No it doesn't.  If your interpretation were correct all spying would be allowed.  And it isn't.


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12773013 - 06/20/10 01:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

it wasnt spying, it was publishing and whistle blowing, arent whistle
blowers protected under the law, what ever happened to that Military
Whistleblower Protection Act... manning is a true patriot


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12773078 - 06/20/10 01:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Bullshit.  What happens if you reveal grand jury testimony and/or don't reveal who did?  You go to jail. 

Just what do you think even qualifies here as "whistleblowing" and what would exceed that characterization?


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12773159 - 06/20/10 02:07 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

well, the US defines espionage towards itself as "The act of obtaining,
delivering, transmitting, communicating, or receiving information about the
national defense with an intent, or reason to believe, that the information
may be used to the injury of the United States"

well, what was the intent, what about the video was info about national
defense since this is a United Nations action that we're part of in both
Afghanistan and Iraq, why exactly does Assange not have the protections of
the constitution since he's merely published information supplied to him

a better question, why does this not qualify as whistle blowing along
with the alleged 250,000 documents that Manning had supplied that show
alleged criminal activity


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12773230 - 06/20/10 02:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
well, the US defines espionage towards itself as "The act of obtaining,
delivering, transmitting, communicating, or receiving information about the
national defense with an intent, or reason to believe, that the information
may be used to the injury of the United States"

well, what was the intent, what about the video was info about national
defense since this is a United Nations action that we're part of in both
Afghanistan and Iraq, why exactly does Assange not have the protections of
the constitution since he's merely published information supplied to him




Classified documents.  It is against the law.  Are you talking about Assange only or Manning as well?  I redirect your attention to the rather recent examples of reporters going to jail for failing to reveal sources who broke confidentiality requirements,, in one case a NY Times reporter of the Valerie Plame nonsense and in the other reporters covering the Barry Bonds grand jury fiasco.  This puts paid your assertion that the First Amendment is some carte blanche permission to reveal confidential information whenever it comes into your hands.
Quote:



a better question, why does this not qualify as whistle blowing along
with the alleged 250,000 documents that Manning had supplied that show
alleged criminal activity




What documents regarding criminal activity?  If he had reason to believe there was criminal activity revealed in the classified State Department documents he had legal venues to bring his complaint.  Do you really think that every peckerhead who wants 15 minutes of fame has the legal right to supercede the lawful authority that determines what is and is not classified?  Do you think that you are entitled to know state secrets?

I'd like to see the NY Times prosecuted as well.  They ruined a perfectly legal NSA surveillance tool by acting in their own self interest and being, well, tools.

And don't tell me what is a better question (your opinion, not mine and which I answered) until you answer the "lesser" one.


--------------------


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12775061 - 06/20/10 08:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Prisoner, your talking to a brick wall who only defends the most un-just parties in any dispute ever. Do you really think that you will change his warped mind?

I'm frankly surprised to not see the partisans in here attacking obama. Perhaps some of them don't want to look like hypocrites, but that's never stopped them before. Maybe they are having internal conflicts as to what they are more pro-fascists or anti-"liberals*".

*used in he imaginary american demonized concept that is often used to describe anything left of center-right.

Interestingly iceland has setup a law that is meant to protect people like Julian Assange and organizations like wikileaks as well as other ISPs like for instance of file-sharing websites.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12775328 - 06/20/10 09:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Classified documents.  It is against the law.  Are you talking about Assange only or Manning as well?





primarily about Assange but if manning is releasing documents that shows
criminal activity as he claims and was in contact with anyone in
congress when he sent these documents then the whole espionage aspect
for him is out the window, he should be afforded the protection under
the military whistle blower act


Quote:

  This puts paid your assertion that the First Amendment is some carte blanche permission to reveal confidential information whenever it comes into your hands.




so a video already in the hands of the new york post a year prior is classified?

maybe they're looking for the video of the Garani massacre, hoping to
prevent the backlash on the obama administration for their transparency
on these issues

Quote:


What documents regarding criminal activity?  If he had reason to believe there was criminal activity revealed in the classified State Department documents he had legal venues to bring his complaint.




how do we know these documents were not cc'd to wikileaks and that they
were not also in the hands of other authorities but of course it's again
a situation where we want government to police government... if it were
happening then the videos wouldnt be an issue

Quote:

Do you really think that every peckerhead who wants 15 minutes of fame has the legal right to supercede the lawful authority that determines what is and is not classified?  Do you think that you are entitled to know state secrets?




if the government isnt screening their employees thoroughly then that's
their issue, that put the DoD at fault for putting a risk in a position
to handle classified documents, if the documents show criminal activity
wouldnt you like to see those involved prosecuted or is that a non issue
because national security may be at risk


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12775351 - 06/20/10 09:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

if the documents show criminal activity
wouldnt you like to see those involved prosecuted or is that a non issue
because national security may be at risk


When it comes to military issues or national defense the US is incapable of wrong doing. Simple and effective.

However if it ever gets turned against us citizens we'll be in a world of hurt.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Icelander]
    #12775405 - 06/20/10 09:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

how is iraq/afghanistan national defense... unless making obama and
clintoon look bad is a serious security breach


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12775425 - 06/20/10 09:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

It's the goal of half of America.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: breaking wikileaks; Americans murdering civilians in Iraq and laughing about it. [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12775519 - 06/20/10 09:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Classified documents.  It is against the law.  Are you talking about Assange only or Manning as well?





primarily about Assange but if manning is releasing documents that shows
criminal activity as he claims and was in contact with anyone in
congress when he sent these documents then the whole espionage aspect
for him is out the window, he should be afforded the protection under
the military whistle blower act




The state department is not under the jurisdiction of the military and the press (even real press) is not perfectly immune.
Quote:




Quote:

  This puts paid your assertion that the First Amendment is some carte blanche permission to reveal confidential information whenever it comes into your hands.




so a video already in the hands of the new york post a year prior is classified?


Did they publish it? Are you really so obtuse to believe that just because somebody has seen something illegally it suddenly becomes unclassified?  No, dear, it is still classified.
Quote:



maybe they're looking for the video of the Garani massacre, hoping to
prevent the backlash on the obama administration for their transparency
on these issues




Don't care.  Garani massacre?  Fucking spare me.  Just like the whole murdered journo thing in the original vid was faux outrage. 
Quote:




Quote:


What documents regarding criminal activity?  If he had reason to believe there was criminal activity revealed in the classified State Department documents he had legal venues to bring his complaint.




how do we know these documents were not cc'd to wikileaks and that they
were not also in the hands of other authorities but of course it's again
a situation where we want government to police government... if it were
happening then the videos wouldnt be an issue




He was specifically unauthorized to CC anything to anybody anywhere ever.  And do you think you can for one tenth of a second concentrate on either one or the other issue; to wit the actual glorious helicopter attack that killed enemy and their aids, or the video nobody knows exists or the several thousand secure State Dept cables?
Quote:



Quote:

Do you really think that every peckerhead who wants 15 minutes of fame has the legal right to supercede the lawful authority that determines what is and is not classified?  Do you think that you are entitled to know state secrets?




if the government isnt screening their employees thoroughly then that's
their issue, that put the DoD at fault for putting a risk in a position
to handle classified documents, if the documents show criminal activity
wouldnt you like to see those involved prosecuted or is that a non issue
because national security may be at risk




There are channels for that.  There is, however, one person who we know 100% violated the law.

Are you seriously going to argue that any criminal is innocent on the grounds that he wasn't stopped?  In a rather illustrious pantheon of stupid shit that I have read on the Shroomery that is probably tip top retarded.  Championship stupid.  I am disappoint.


--------------------


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