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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236343 - 01/21/03 09:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

That the second amendment refers to gun ownership for individuals and not militias?



Well, the question I struggled with is what for most of this thread is "What is a militia???" That's not an easy one to answer. But based on historical discussions I found on the web, I believe a militia is indeed "the people" joining together for a lawful revolt. Can't say for sure that's the right answer, but I do believe something close to that is what the founders meant.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1236354 - 01/21/03 09:32 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

This sounds reasonable:

When the U.S. Constitution was adopted, each of the states had its own "militia" ? a military force comprised of ordinary citizens serving as part-time soldiers. The militia was "well-regulated" in the sense that its members were subject to various requirements such as training, supplying their own firearms, and engaging in military exercises away from home. It was a form of compulsory military service intended to protect the fledgling nation from outside forces and from internal rebellions.

The "militia" was not, as the gun lobby will often claim, simply another word for the populace at large. Indeed, membership in the 18th century militia was generally limited to able-bodied white males between the ages of 18 and 45 ? hardly encompassing the entire population of the nation.

The U.S. Constitution established a permanent professional army, controlled by the federal government. With the memory of King George III's troops fresh in their minds, many of the "anti-Federalists" feared a standing army as an instrument of oppression. State militias were viewed as a counterbalance to the federal army and the Second Amendment was written to prevent the federal government from disarming the state militias.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236424 - 01/21/03 09:50 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I agree - that does sound very reasonable.  Now, given that definition, let's revisit the 2nd amendment:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I don't know.  Maybe it means people must be able to own weapons so they have something to bring with them if they participate in militia activities?  :confused: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


Edited by GoBlue! (01/21/03 09:55 AM)


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236427 - 01/21/03 09:50 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

DIdn't you already cut and paste this from somewhere? I swear I've seen it in these forums very recently.

Anyways....
Quote:

membership in the 18th century militia was generally limited to able-bodied white males between the ages of 18 and 45 ? hardly encompassing the entire population of the nation.



That doesn't sound like the militia, it sounds like the KKK.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236547 - 01/21/03 10:12 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It was a form of compulsory military service...



Wrong. I don't believe there was any compulsory military service until Abe Lincoln instituted the draft during the war to reverse southern secession.

Quote:

The U.S. Constitution established a permanent professional army, controlled by the federal government.



Please state where in the U.S. Constitution it established a permanent professional army. It does not....
"Article. I., Section. 8., Clause 12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; "

Your sources are incorrect.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (01/21/03 10:14 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236652 - 01/21/03 10:59 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

you know what an unholy clusterfuck you got yourself into with that last time



Go back and read that post while you're reading the court decisions you posted. If you read the decisions you'll see that once again you're wrong... kind of like saying England controlled 75%. While reading the other thread you refer to you'll see that a few made one or two comments while you went on and on. The clusterfuck was entirely yours.

Quote:

it's every legal expert advising the supreme court and the federals court



So... you've gone from claiming every court in the nation to the supreme court to every legal expert who advises the supreme court. Keep waffling. Maybe you did read the decisions and your doing the "Al". Backing away gradually rather than admit defeat.

And even a casual read of my posts show a good deal more research than you put in. But keep patting yourself on the back. Few others will.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/21/03 11:11 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1236669 - 01/21/03 11:03 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Al... I'm real sorry man, but I just can't argue with you anymore. I thought that maybe after presenting completely solid points to back up my argument, that an open-minded, rational person, opposed to it would at least consider that my argument may indeed be correct.



It's obvious you haven't seen many of Alpo's posts or you'd know that's his style. He's a legend in his own mind. No matter how much proof he's shown, everyone who doesn't agree wih him is stupid, moronic, etc.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1237242 - 01/21/03 02:21 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

So in this regard, I agree with Alex that the NRA is wrong if they believe the believe the people have a right to any arms they desire (I don't know if this is the NRA's official stance or not, but if it is I would disagree with them on the grounds of "well regulated".)




To quote Charleton Heston at an NRA convention I attended a few years back (the year of the Columbine Massacre), "It is the National Rifle Association, not the National Pipe Bomb Assiciation."


Edited by stonedfish (01/21/03 02:21 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1237297 - 01/21/03 02:31 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Rather than require everyone (including those who live alone or without kids or irresponsible adults) to lock up their guns, why not educate the population on gun saftey. I propose to add a firearms safety course to every high school in America. The kids don't even have to handle a gun, just be informed on the dangers and uses of guns. Shit, in high school we had to take a sexual education course, at the end of which we all recieved a few condoms. At the end of a gun saftey course, everyone could recieve a portable gun safe. The way I see it, education is much more effective than forcing people to comply.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Anonymous]
    #1237311 - 01/21/03 02:35 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I like your idea. On top of it, I'd like to make the gun safety course a requirement for anyone wanting to purchase a gun, or at least have an equivalency test. You have to get a license to drive a car. You should have to get a license to own a gun. Or do they have that already? I'm not quite clear on gun laws.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: silversoul7]
    #1237342 - 01/21/03 02:43 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)


I thought I should clear this up: Advocating gun CONTROL does not make you anti-
gun. It just means putting regulations on what kinds of guns people can have and
who should be allowed to have them.


Gun policy in America is often at the whim of hysterical voters who see some
shooting on the news, and then proceed to scream "we need gun control!!!". 
Rational debate and policy is needed on this issue.  Biased knee-jerk reactions will
solve nothing.

Guns have the propensity to be dangerous.  There need to be laws regulating
their sale and use.  In my opinion, all of the laws that need to be in place are in
place.  They are just not enforced  as well as they should be sometimes.

As an aside, I love guns.  :grin:  I want so many of them.  I want to get my
federal firearms license(so I will be allowed to own automatic weapons).

Guns....*drool*


   


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: chills420]
    #1237352 - 01/21/03 02:47 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)


Burn up a few hundred rounds in a afternoon with a ar-15 or SKS and everyone
pretty much gets the point.


Ar-15. I have such a hard-on for that gun. I want to get one of the awesome
pre-ban ones. Mine is going to have a night vision scope, collapsible stock,
flash supressor, grenade launcher, and a bayonet.


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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: silversoul7]
    #1237408 - 01/21/03 03:01 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

>You have to get a license to drive a car. You should have to get a license to own a gun.

Same arguement was used by the infamous Bill Clinton. The difference is that the right to bear arms is a constitutional right. The Bill of Rights does not mention any right to travel (by car or horse). What I keep in my house is none of the government's business. It is their business, however, when millions of people are making use of government built streets, always at putting each other at risk of an accident. I believe that everyone should take a gun safety course, but I don't believe that they should be forced to. If the class were offered in high school, then many people would take advantage of it. In fact, make it a requirement for graduating (I know this seems to be a contradiction, but I will explain).

Once a person grows up, moves out, has bills to pay, and so on, why should the state force him to take a gun saftey class. Many people, myself included, learned gun saftey from family members at a very young age. So why should we be forced to go through all that training again, at our expense, just to buy a firearm? Sure, if a gun saftey class is a requirement, the guy will have to go through all the saftey rules and such again, but he will not be taking time out of his working life, because he is not a full time employee. Consider this: at my high school, Health and US History were the only two classes you HAD to take to graduate. I am all for the US History requirement, but come on, do they really have to teach us health (not even physical health, but a course in mental health). Swap that class with firearms safety and voila, you have a safer population (which doesn't constantly worry about having a mild case of ADHD).


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Offlinechills420
Poo Pie Maker

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 354
Last seen: 21 years, 17 days
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1237720 - 01/21/03 04:41 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:



As an aside, I love guns.  :grin:  I want so many of them.  I want to get my
federal firearms license(so I will be allowed to own automatic weapons).

Guns....*drool*


   



Your FFl isn't what you need to own a full auto but it doesn't hurt to have it also.
You need a WMD permit I renewed mine 3 years ago and have to go back in a few months. things have changed a little with them mostly cost.
A few years back it was 3000.00 If i'm correct now it's 5000 but good for 5 years but as I said b4 i haven't had dealing with them except to turn in my yearly logs in a few years. 

Edit Oh yeah you also have to pick up a paper from your countys head LEO


--------------------
Teach a man to make cakes he will trip for a night. Teach a man to case he will trip forever


Edited by chills420 (01/21/03 04:44 PM)


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Offlinechills420
Poo Pie Maker

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 354
Last seen: 21 years, 17 days
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Anonymous]
    #1237772 - 01/21/03 04:56 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rather than require everyone (including those who live alone or without kids or irresponsible adults) to lock up their guns, why not educate the population on gun saftey.  I propose to add a firearms safety course to every high school in America.  The kids don't even have to handle a gun, just be informed on the dangers and uses of guns.  Shit, in high school we had to take a sexual education course, at the end of which we all recieved a few condoms.  At the end of a gun saftey course, everyone could recieve a portable gun safe.  The way I see it, education is much more effective than forcing people to comply. 




But how does this keep it from being stolen and used in a crime? I never ment that it had to be under lock and key at all times just when you were off your property or away from the gun.
If you like to display them they also sell a tear gas bomb you use a clear string to attach thru your guns and pull out a pin on the tank.
If someone grabs one of the guns and picks it up it pulls the string and it emptys the tank in like 10 sec.
The house will air out in 3 hours after use.
I'd like to see some crack head grab one of these. That alone would make a security cam a must. :grin:

How much do you have invested in guns? If it's anything like me theres alot of cash there. I figured hell i have x amount of money n my guns why not spend a few extra bucks to keep them safe.
+it makes for a good place to hide stuff from the wife (they never go there  unless there gona shoot you but then it doesn't matter if they find it) 


--------------------
Teach a man to make cakes he will trip for a night. Teach a man to case he will trip forever


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: chills420]
    #1237862 - 01/21/03 05:26 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

But how does this keep it from being stolen and used in a crime?



It doesn't, but frankly, most gangsters, mafia, etc. tend to buy their guns on the black market, so it's hard to stop them, but I definitely think a gun safety course would reduce accidental shootings.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: silversoul7]
    #1238000 - 01/21/03 06:36 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Anyone stupid enough to pull a gun on a mafia member needs a good slap and after they kill that member of the mafia they will get what is coming,so will their family members. :smirk:


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: chills420]
    #1238093 - 01/21/03 08:31 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"But the ? in general a criminal asks is who doesn't have a gun. "

And how exactly does he know??


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GazzBut]
    #1238140 - 01/21/03 09:45 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Of course they don't "know". There are some books and studies done where inmates were interviewed as to what type of things stopped them from robbing certain individuals / homes. The overwhelming response was fear of armed citizens / homeowners. This is why states with the least restrictive gun laws have the lowest crime rates. Take Florida as an example. These numbers are quite easily found. For many years in Fl if you wanted a concealed carry permit you had to convince the local government officials you"needed" one. Then several years ago the law was changed to a "must issue" law. This means the permit must be issued unless a problem shows up in the criminal record / mental health check. The violent crime rate dropped significantly.

In Vermont, anyone can carry concealed even without a permit. As a result they have one of the lowest crime rates in the US.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1238148 - 01/21/03 09:55 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

As you know, I have altered my posistion. If somebody feels the need to carry a gun then fine. Its upto the individual

But you will never convince me the need is genuine and not fuelled by fear.

For the record, I live in one of the poorest boroughs in England. Gun crime is on the rise here but it is mainly between fellow criminals over some dispute. People who burgle houses and commit other crimes against your average lawabiding citizen(like my good self :grin:) dont carry guns because they know a) It is unlikely their victims will be armed and b) If they do get caught the sentence will be much more severe if they are carrying a gun.
 


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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