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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1235579 - 01/21/03 04:06 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

What are you talking about man? I am simply stating the Supreme court and federal courts view. It's got nothing to do with me ok? It's what every legal expert in american law thinks. If you can't deal with that ok, but don't try and make out it's my fault that the american courts don't agree with you.

Ok?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Offlinechills420
Poo Pie Maker

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 354
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1235617 - 01/21/03 04:29 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The right hands are those of freedom loving, law abiding citizens, believers in the constitution and bill of rights.

Quote:

You're telling me that the freedom or security of this nation rests on a bunch of guys going to the shooting range on weekends???



Hopefully it will never be necessary for it to come down to the citizens of this country to take up arms against the government, but if it ever does... these are the people who will be needed most. It will be a sad day indeed if that ever comes to pass.




Some of us are just more prepared than others. If this was to ever happen do you wonder where all these anti gun people will go?
I for 1 wouldn't want to fight the government but if need be i'd do my part.
if that means draging out a case of Ak's and handing them out so be it.

If the shit ever hits the fan though I know I'm armed locked and loaded. I may have more guns than a small pawn shop but yet I've never assulted anyone nor used a gun to strike fear into someone. I never plan on doing this. Guns are not made to make ur balls bigger or u any tougher. If I point a gun odds are i'm gona shoot what i'm pointing at. i don't play these games of acting like a bad ass or a gangster People like that are the main reason to own a gun.

As for using gas on us I also own gas masks lol
Got kevlar to. Flash bangs don't bother me i was trained n the army they blow them up beside you.
So if you can't gas us, shoot us, or disorent us,
What do you have?
Basicly a home grown vietnam inside the borders of the US
I'll be damned if I sit back and watch this country go to shit. I'd die laying in a puddle of my blood b4 it happens.

You're telling me that the freedom or security of this nation rests on a bunch of guys going to the shooting range on weekends???
Pretty much and let it be know those guys on the shooting range prob have a better chance than a army would.
Most of those guys are vets or kids that grew up in a millitary style home.




--------------------
Teach a man to make cakes he will trip for a night. Teach a man to case he will trip forever

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GazzBut]
    #1235637 - 01/21/03 04:35 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

If you perceive it as absolutely neccessary for you to have a weapon in your neighbourhood how may people have you had to shoot?






The answer to that would be, none. It is enough for them to know that I have one and am not afraid to use it. You do understand that concept, don't you?

Peace

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1235649 - 01/21/03 04:39 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Al... I'm real sorry man, but I just can't argue with you anymore.  I thought that maybe after presenting completely solid points to back up my argument, that an open-minded, rational person, opposed to it would at least consider that my argument may indeed be correct.  You could claim that the Atlantic Ocean did not exist, and I could show it to you, and you'd still say that it doesn't exist, right after you got done swimming in it.  It's actually quite comical to read how absurd your posts are... but I'm just fed up with trying to argue with you.  You've already been taught by someone what you believe, and you're ability to examine evidence and arrive at a conclusion on your own is very clearly lacking.  You're imprisoned by your beliefs.  FREE YOUR MIND. 




Well I can see that we all have learned something here.

For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes. Francis Bacon

I enjoyed your posts.  They were informative, interesting, and well-written.

Thanks. :smile:

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: chills420]
    #1235656 - 01/21/03 04:41 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I thought I should clear this up: Advocating gun CONTROL does not make you anti-gun. It just means putting regulations on what kinds of guns people can have and who should be allowed to have them. I don't think anyone here actually wants to get rid of ALL guns.

Hell, if the situation arose where the government became intolerably dictatorial, I'd probably start arming myself and preparing for revolution, except for the fact that I could instead choose to go to Canada as a refugee. I would then buy a gun there(yes, they have guns in Canada, too), and if the U.S. invaded Canada, I'd be waiting for them.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

Edited by silversoul7 (01/21/03 04:45 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1235673 - 01/21/03 04:47 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

What are you talking about man? I am simply stating the Supreme court and federal courts view. It's got nothing to do with me ok? It's what every legal expert in american law thinks. If you can't deal with that ok, but don't try and make out it's my fault that the american courts don't agree with you.

Ok?




Come now Alex, are you trying for death by hyperbole or Argumentum ad verecundiam? Do you seriously think that "every legal "expert" in american law" is on your side? Do you want me to find an opinion to contradict your assumption? And what will you say when I do? They are not an "expert". The concept itself is risible.

Carry on

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1235683 - 01/21/03 04:51 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Well put.

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1235705 - 01/21/03 04:59 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I am simply stating the Supreme court and federal courts view.

It's what every legal expert in american law thinks.

Care to back these claims up? EVERY expert? Come on... I think that the courts aren't as favored towards your argument as you'd like to believe. Nonetheless, there is some truth to the fact that the courts have decided in some cases against the Second Amendment. But to say that EVERY legal expert in american law also feels this way (and I believe that in reality they are divided on this one), is really a stretch. You keep talking about these court decisions and these legal experts, and everytime, someone in this forum says, "back that up Alex", and you never do. Back it up. I'd like to add however that regardless what the courts have said, you should also remember that the courts upheld slavery, they upheld segregation, and they upheld the notion that women could not vote. Is same sex marriage wrong because the courts have ruled against it? These courts you speak of are politically charged bodies of elected men and women. They make decisions about politically charged issues, like gun control, and the decisions they make are more often then not made with political motives. Their "interpretations" are not something that I think make a valid argument. However, these "legal experts" of whom you speak are a much less biased and much more reliable source of accurate constitutional interpretations. However, you have continued to dodge the question, "who are these legal experts you speak of, and what have they said?". I'll be surprised if you can actually find much to back you up on that. That said, I'd like to quote a few leading experts on the constitution here on my own behalf...

"The Constitution shall never be construed ? to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samuel Adams

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them." - Zachariah Johnson

"A free people ought ? to be armed ?" - George Washington

"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them ?" - George Mason

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." - James Madison

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." - Patrick Henry

"Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion? in private self-defense ?" - John Adams

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ? and include all men capable of bearing arms." - Richard Henry Lee

"What, sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty." - Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials." - George Mason

"The right of the people to keep and bear ? arms shall not be infringed. A well-regulated militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country ?" - James Madison

And I think that just about wraps it up for me. I'm looking forward to hearing what your "legal experts" say. But alas... I understand that it'll take a good long while, considering that you'll have to interview and quote EVERY single one of them...


Edited by mushmaster (01/21/03 05:03 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1236060 - 01/21/03 07:52 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Care to back these claims up? EVERY expert?

Ok, lets compromise. Enough legal experts agree to make it the judgement of the supreme and federals courts in every case except the renegade emerson judge.

Now tell me, does that have anything to do with me? Do you really think I control the american legal system? The same judgement has been being passed since 1939 - long before i was born. Do you think I'm responsible for supreme court judgements made before i was born? Or is it more likely that the balance of legal experts in the country simply don't agree with the NRA?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236078 - 01/21/03 07:57 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You STILL haven't brought any proof to the table.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Anonymous]
    #1236091 - 01/21/03 08:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Read about the supreme and federals courts decision. There's well over 30 cases where they dismiss the NRA's interpretation of the second amendment.

Educate yourself. Don't depend on someone else spoonfeeding you.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236104 - 01/21/03 08:02 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm well aware of the Supreme Courts acceptance of the right to bear arms as an individual right. The burden of proof is on you, as you are the one making claims.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 3 months, 18 days
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1236176 - 01/21/03 08:23 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

of course. Though Im curious how you informed the criminal element in your neighbourhood of the fact that you are packin heat?

Did you place an ad in the local rag to let then know?  :grin: 


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Offlinechills420
Poo Pie Maker

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 354
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Anonymous]
    #1236192 - 01/21/03 08:31 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Any law that registers a gun in your name should be a violation of your privacy and your rights.2 bad this isn't true. :mad:
All registering does is makes a list.
This gun finger printing is such a waste and gay. It's retarded to think that a gun that has this done is going to be found this way.
Most guns that kill people other than in the home are stolen.

Lets say for example I wana AK-47 and it's had the figerprinting done.
I do a few things to fix this and it's totaly diff.
1 Change the bolt
2 Change the firing pin
3 Change out the barrel or shorten it.
4 If i wana go cheap I run I stiff wire brush up the barrel.
^^^^^^ doing 1 or all changes the finger print
All these parts can be bought anywhere without a LIC.
even ebay.
I do this with most of my guns anyway because most are post millitary and need repairs.
Why would you let your taxes go 2 waste like this?

I could see a law where guns must be kept secure @ all times by the owner.
I do this now without a law.
Anyone who owns more than 1 or 2 guns should or if you shot alot around your home.
I wouldn't feel bad feelings if my home was broken into and unsecure guns were stollen and later some kid shot up the school with it and the government filed charges against me. It would actually be my fault because i bought the gun and failed 2 secure it.

In order to have the permits I have I must have a quote from the paper work.
"secure storage facility ie.Racks w/locks, vaults,ect
I use a 3 ton fire safe. lets see someone run off with that.

I would feel awfull if one of the guns I built that brought me so much joy in building killed a inocent person.
Gun control wouldn't be a real big deal if everyone would act grown up and take care of there shit. I mean come on K-mart and wally world both sell safes for around 80-100 bucks. Grant it it's not a 3 ton fort knox but it works. So why do so many guns get stolen each year? Stolen gun= Crime
 
If you want to have a hand gun for protection at night or in general home use get it out and then put it back up b4 you leave no biggie it keeps you shit and it's secure also.
I though I was cool and safe a few years back and learned I wasn't. A 14 year old kid broke into my house and stole a 20 gauge shotgun and left everything else except a few stupid things a kid would take. I didn't even notice untill a few days later when the guy next door got robbed. I still haven't located the 20 gauge and I hope I never hear of it doing harm. But it was a good shock into reality people suck and will steal your shit. 


--------------------
Teach a man to make cakes he will trip for a night. Teach a man to case he will trip forever

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Offlinechills420
Poo Pie Maker

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 354
Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GazzBut]
    #1236199 - 01/21/03 08:34 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

of course. Though Im curious how you informed the criminal element in your neighbourhood of the fact that you are packin heat?

Did you place an ad in the local rag to let then know?  :grin: 




Burn up a few hundred rounds in a afternoon with a ar-15 or SKS and everyone pretty much gets the point. 

But the ? in general a criminal asks is who doesn't have a gun.


--------------------
Teach a man to make cakes he will trip for a night. Teach a man to case he will trip forever

Edited by chills420 (01/21/03 08:36 AM)

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236293 - 01/21/03 09:10 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I am simply stating the Supreme court and federal courts view. It's what every legal expert in american law thinks.



I have to side with mushmaster and Mr Mushrooms that not "every legal expert" would agree with Supreme Court ruling.


Since I didn't get any solid answers from the Shroomery on my question of what "well regulated" means, I did my own research. Here's what I came up with:

First of all, I now agree that it was indeed the intent of the Second Amendment to give all people the right to bear arms (I never disagreed with this right, I just wasn't sure if that was an absolute right given by the 2nd Amendmend). I came to this conclusion based on what our founding fathers had to say about what a militia is. To them, it appears the militia was simply "the people" rising up against something they opposed.

But this still doesn't answer the question of what "well regulated" means. I found the answer to this simply by looking up the United States v. Miller case. It basically means that people shouldn't be allowed to possess nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, sawed off shotguns, and weapons that aren't considered necessary for a militia. So in this regard, I agree with Alex that the NRA is wrong if they believe the believe the people have a right to any arms they desire (I don't know if this is the NRA's official stance or not, but if it is I would disagree with them on the grounds of "well regulated".)

Does this interpretation seem fair (correct)?

I realize that given this interpretation, there will always be a debate about what type of arms are necessary for a militia. But since the founding fathers couldn't have known what weapons the future would bring, they had to leave this interpretation up to the courts of the future.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1236304 - 01/21/03 09:14 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I have to side with mushmaster and Mr Mushrooms that not "every legal expert" would agree with Supreme Court ruling.

Well the later post I made said enough agreed such that it was the conclusion of the supreme court and federals court in every case except one for the last 60 odd years. Well over 30 cases. It's pretty overwhelming which ever way you look at it.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236316 - 01/21/03 09:20 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Fair enough. But let me ask this: what did you mean exactly when you said they disagree with the NRA opinion. What is the NRA's opinion??? Maybe I would agree with you depending on your answer.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1236326 - 01/21/03 09:23 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

That the second amendment refers to gun ownership for individuals and not militias?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: chills420]
    #1236329 - 01/21/03 09:24 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Hey chills, I liked your post about securing guns. I believe a law like that would be fair (legal) based on the "well regulated" part of the 2nd amendment.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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