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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1234508 - 01/20/03 02:59 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I liken the situation to cloning. Much opposition to cloning comes from the idea of what it might lead to if it falls into the wrong hands. Also, what do you mean by the "right hands"? You're telling me that the freedom or security of this nation rests on a bunch of guys going to the shooting range on weekends???


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: silversoul7]
    #1234527 - 01/20/03 03:07 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

The right hands are those of freedom loving, law abiding citizens, believers in the constitution and bill of rights.

Quote:

You're telling me that the freedom or security of this nation rests on a bunch of guys going to the shooting range on weekends???



Hopefully it will never be necessary for it to come down to the citizens of this country to take up arms against the government, but if it ever does... these are the people who will be needed most. It will be a sad day indeed if that ever comes to pass.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1234536 - 01/20/03 03:09 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

If the people were to rise up and overthrow the government, it would lead to anarchy, and anarchy leads to totalitarian states.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: silversoul7]
    #1234542 - 01/20/03 03:12 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Sure, just like when we threw off the yoke known as England.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Registered: 10/10/02
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1234549 - 01/20/03 03:17 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Good point. I should've considered that. However, it seems unlikely that these "gun-toting freedom-lovers" would organize in the way that the colonists did. I may be wrong, and I hope I am, but in order to avoid anarchy and ultimately dictatorship, there would have to be a high level of organization in those seeking to overthrow an oppressive regime.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1234786 - 01/20/03 05:11 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I need not convince you of anything. It is what it is. A right of the people ...until the ammendment is changed or eliminated, it will remain a right "of the people".




Ok, if you ignore the 1st part of the 2nd amendment then you are correct. But be aware that if a law were ever passed that banned guns, and this law were challenged based on the 2nd amendment, I think it would be wrong to believe that the courts would ignore the first part of the amendment.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1234806 - 01/20/03 05:22 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I believe that the amendment, if written in contemporary times with the same intent, would read

"Because the people must be able to effectively form groups useful in the resistance against tyranny, the right of the people to own weapons shall not be infringed"



That ignores the "well regulated" statement. How about this interpretation:

"The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed because a well regulated Militia is necessary to the security of a free State"

I think this says exactly the same thing, but is worded in a way that might make it easier to interpret.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: shroomophile]
    #1234814 - 01/20/03 05:25 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

It's really very simple.The right does exist,or the gov't would have already taken them long ago.



Yes, you are 100% correct on this. But is it a Constitutional right?


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1234917 - 01/20/03 06:04 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I need not convince you of anything.

Good job cos you couldn't convince a 2 year old with your childish "arguments" so far.

It is what it is. A right "of the people".

In your mind perhaps. Not in the mind of every legal expert who advises the supreme and federals courts. Do we trust you or the the legal experts. Hard decision but i think i'll go with the experts  :smirk:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1235086 - 01/20/03 07:38 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I'll belly up to the bar on this one.

Fact is there are a lot of idiots running around calling themselves and being called by others "experts". And fact is, it just ain't so. A passage from "Looking Out for Number 1" is instructive:

"On and on they go, and where they stop nobody knows. Throughout history, experts have been intimidating people into making plans based on their scientific predictions for the future. But the future is arriving so fast these days-proving the experts wrong more quickly than in the past-that only a fool would rely blindly on the forecasts of an expert.

How does expert intimidation affect your life? Do you purposely eat a big breakfast because the experts have hammered home to you that it's essential to good health? A couple of experts-doctors, in fact-have concluded that a big breakfast is actually unhealthy because, among other things, it supplies unneeded calories, sets the fat-depositing, insulin-glucagon machinery in motion, can cause a craving for more starchy foods, and causes the blood to shift to the intestines at the expense of the brain and muscles.

Do experts have you worried over the energy shortage? I'll introduce you to other experts who don't think the energy situation is of crisis proportions or don't believe it's a problem that can't be solved with relative ease. Your plumber says you need a whole new faucet unit? I'll get you one who will assure you it's only necessary to insert a screw in the old unit. You're staying in a bad marriage because a marriage counselor has told you that the "right" thing to do is to work it out? I'll find you one who will tell you that it is more practical to cut the chain and start fresh. Are you shying away from a favorite food because a scientist has proven it causes cancer in worms? With a little searching, I'll find one who claims it's the healthiest food you can eat.

Face it: "experts" don't have all the answers! At best, experts are people who are knowledgeable, but not infallible. And the best ones will admit that openly. Kick the expert habit; don't make decisions based solely on the opinions of a purported expert. By all means, listen to what he has to say, but weigh it against your reasoning power. Then make your final decisions accordingly. No expert can hold you captive against your will."


There are studies and statistics on both sides of this argument. I am sure your intentions are well meant but that doesn't alter the fact that there are no good arguments for denying someone the ability to defend themselves.

I have been to your country and I was amazed at how civil people were. When I was touring England I was impressed at how the cars would dim their bright headlights before they rounded a curve if they saw an oncoming car. Here in the US people blind you with their bright headlights as they pass you on the road in a straight-away.

Perhaps in your nieghborhood you do not need a gun to protect the ones you love. I can assure you that where I live it is necessary. That being the case I will keep my weapons. You may do as you wish.

And for those of you who support our President AND guns, here's a prediction.

When his re-election comes up in 2004 and the sunset clause sets on the Assault Weapons ban he will sign the bill to renew it, probably forever. He, along with most policicians, will do what is in HIS best interest, getting re-elected!

Peace, and while you're at it pass me some armour-piercing ammo!

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: ]
    #1235145 - 01/20/03 08:38 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

If you perceive it as absolutely neccessary for you to have a weapon in your neighbourhood how may people have you had to shoot?



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Always Smi2le

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1235174 - 01/20/03 09:25 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Good job cos you couldn't convince a 2 year old with your childish "arguments" so far.



I had you pegged at least three years old Alpo.
So let's see, someone who takes the time to at least look things up is childish... what would you call someone who spouts the same old lies over and over despite having been provided with all the info needed?

I can just imagine your childhood.....

Mompo: Alpo, why is your hand in the cookie jar?
Alpo: Golly Mom, you ignorant shit, it's not my hand.
Mompo: But it's attached to your arm.
Alpo: Are you stupid or something? I said it's not my hand!
Mompo: But Alpo, I can see the evidence.
Alpo: Fuck you! Are you blind as well as stupid?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1235177 - 01/20/03 09:30 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Mompo


Classic  :wink:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1235185 - 01/20/03 09:38 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I had you pegged at least three years old Alpo.




Double dog food on you.

JOIN THE NATIONAL ASSHOLE ASSOCIATION









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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Invisiblejdm
Registered: 01/16/03
Posts: 18
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1235244 - 01/20/03 11:23 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quote:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

OK, first we start off with a subordinate clause which states an opinion. This opinion is not a limitation upon the main clause but rather explains to the reader one of the many reasons for the main clause.



Almost true. It explains to the reader not "one of the many reasons", but the reason for the main clause.

You've convinced me to believe that so long as "a well regulated militia" is necessary for the security of a free state then people have a right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment, if they have the intention of being a part of the "well regulated militia" which is "necessary to the security of a free state". But I would argue that a militia is NOT necessary for the security of a free state in today's day and age, due to the strength of our military. I realize this is debatable and probably best left as a subject for another thread.





You don't quite understand the Contitution or the history of the united States. It is very obvious from that statement. The whole point of bearing arms is not to protect yourself from riots, thef, or someone breaking into your house. It is to protect you FROM THE GOVERNMENT, period. The military is part of the government. So yes, militias and the right to bear arms IS necessary for the security of a free state.

I don't care how great an army is. Bring it into a city or a good sized town and see how long that army lasts. Urban warfare is not a pretty picture for the invaders.

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Invisibleshroomophile
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Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 762
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Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1235251 - 01/20/03 11:35 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Yes it is.Lets do a little detective work.Back to the good old Bill of Rights.

#1: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

#2:A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

#4:The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

#9:The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

#10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Now who among you argues the first ,fourth,ninth and tenth does not apply to the people.The rights of the people are very well laid out.The people are used in the same context in the second.I find it highly unlikely that the founders meant anything other than the right of the people.










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Once the mighty oak,was a nut who held his ground.

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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: jdm]
    #1235313 - 01/21/03 01:25 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

You don't quite understand the Contitution or the history of the united States. It is very obvious from that statement. The whole point of bearing arms is not to protect yourself from riots, thef, or someone breaking into your house. It is to protect you FROM THE GOVERNMENT, period.




If that's true, then you're absolutely correct - I don't quite understand the Constitution or the history of the United States.  Show some evidence that what you just said is true, and I'll side with you.  But I'll bet you can't back that statement up.  :wink: 


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 576
Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: shroomophile]
    #1235323 - 01/21/03 01:35 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Now who among you argues the first ,fourth,ninth and tenth does not apply to the people? The rights of the people are very well laid out.The people are used in the same context in the second. I find it highly unlikely that the founders meant anything other than the right of the people.




I agree. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State. It's not a question of the right of the people to bear arms, it's a question of why this right was given - because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state. What does that mean exactly? I think that's the question that must be answered.


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:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1235519 - 01/21/03 03:35 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I had you pegged at least three years old Alpo.

You cheeky monkey luvvie.

So let's see, someone who takes the time to at least look things up is childish

If you do, great. You just never post like you do. You're still relying on one renegade decision (that quickly got usurped by other cases) in the face of dozens of other cases to the contrary.

It's not me you need to convince luvvie, it's every legal expert advising the supreme court and the federals court. Even the NRA darn't put the second amendment to the test in a court of law.

I can just imagine your childhood.....

Careful. You'll make another one of your "mistakes" and start calling me "gay" cos I don't agree with you soon. And you know what an unholy clusterfuck you got yourself into with that last time  :smirk:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: For You Gun Haters [Re: Xlea321]
    #1235573 - 01/21/03 04:02 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Al... I'm real sorry man, but I just can't argue with you anymore. I thought that maybe after presenting completely solid points to back up my argument, that an open-minded, rational person, opposed to it would at least consider that my argument may indeed be correct. You could claim that the Atlantic Ocean did not exist, and I could show it to you, and you'd still say that it doesn't exist, right after you got done swimming in it. It's actually quite comical to read how absurd your posts are... but I'm just fed up with trying to argue with you. You've already been taught by someone what you believe, and you're ability to examine evidence and arrive at a conclusion on your own is very clearly lacking. You're imprisoned by your beliefs. FREE YOUR MIND.

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