|
Tony
Stranger

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 958
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Personal liberation for selfish bastards
#12300389 - 03/30/10 04:08 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I think it was Chronic777 who previously asked something along the lines of "Who is liberated?" This is a great question. If there is only one mind, then there is really no one to be liberated. The individual person, being a grouping of temporal forms in the samsara, enlightened or not, is bound to dissolve anyway.
Thus, seeking liberation on a personal level is moot. You become liberated, but you were already empty to begin with. Nothing fundamental occurs with the enlightenment of an individual. The change is samsaric. The Eternal gives rise to a temporal expression of itself in the samsara.
Hence the prophet:
A path to the eternal mind, shining through the enlightened being in samsara.
But there is no such thing as "personal liberation".
Hence the reason why prophets don't stop prophesizing, no matter how worn the message gets:
The pursuit of enlightenment doesn't stop until every conscious being is enlightened and samsara either completely evaporates or becomes a dualistic playground for non-dual awareness, or something.
So, IMO, don't expect to bliss out when you get there. There's still work to be done after enlightenment.
Why am I saying this? IDK. Maybe it will make some think more closely about their own spiritual pursuits. I've for instance realized that much of my own motives in this area are based on selfishness and the illusion of a separate self. But I guess that's what living in samsara is all about, priot to enlightenment. Spirituality, on the other hand, is about taking down barriers.
Rebuttals & trolling are welcome 
And here's some Ken Wilber on the issue.
Edited by Tony (03/30/10 04:11 PM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Tony]
#12300429 - 03/30/10 04:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hey this is a great post. Now that I know I'm there I can get back to being selfish on this plane but without the guilt. Thanks you sweet thing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
GrimaceTheFrog
Actually Stonehenge



Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 529
Loc: aussieland
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Icelander]
#12301254 - 03/30/10 06:42 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
i'm selfish and i'm pretty happy
idk what enlightened means tho
-------------------- no
|
p4kSouL
Animals Are Cool

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 3,666
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: GrimaceTheFrog]
#12301370 - 03/30/10 07:00 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah what does enlightenment mean?
From my understanding in Yogic Philosophy Enlightenment has to do with bioelectricity, or awakening Kundalini up the Chakras.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: GrimaceTheFrog]
#12301893 - 03/30/10 08:43 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
GrimaceTheFrog said: i'm selfish and i'm pretty happy
idk what enlightened means tho 
Enlightenment means different things to different people. For me it means fully grokking your unimportance.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 1 day
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Tony]
#12302559 - 03/30/10 10:27 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Many of the highest level Buddhist monks have sworn themselves to be Bodhisattva's, which means they are sworn to the removal of all suffering, not just their own. You can't become enlightened in the Buddhist sense without practicing compassion, so your right its not an individual pursuit.
P4kSoul Enlightenment in the buddhist sense would mean complete removal from the cycle of death and rebirth. This being achieved by removing all karmic attachment to the cycle. But there are different definitions.
Edited by DimensionX (03/30/10 10:30 PM)
|
GrimaceTheFrog
Actually Stonehenge



Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 529
Loc: aussieland
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: p4kSouL]
#12302565 - 03/30/10 10:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
i recognize that i'm unimportant
but i'm still fuckin' me, that's gotta be worth something right??
-------------------- no
|
Simulacra541
Nobody


Registered: 01/28/09 
Posts: 265
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: GrimaceTheFrog]
#12302671 - 03/30/10 10:49 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
in other words no one has a fucking clue Even the Dali Lama is like "Enlightenment? I'm just in it for this sick palace" ...yes he does use english slang words.
|
DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 1 day
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Simulacra541]
#12302681 - 03/30/10 10:51 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
hehehe the dali lama is quite a bit more philosophical about the whole thing. also i did leave a description of my understand of it.
|
Grimmy101


Registered: 05/25/09
Posts: 75
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: DimensionX]
#12302835 - 03/30/10 11:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
One thing which Wilber does state on the topic of enlightenment is that people are already enlightened, simply unaware of it because of how they continuously try to seek something which they already have: he compares it to wave-jumping without realizing that you're currently on a wave. He also goes on to state that the point of spiritual practice is not to attain enlightenment or become a Buddha but to behave like a Buddha.
Also, because enlightenment is an eternal state, you can't "get there" because that would mean that it has a beginning in time, and therefore not eternal, you can simply become aware of it already being present.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: GrimaceTheFrog]
#12303212 - 03/31/10 12:49 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
GrimaceTheFrog said: i recognize that i'm unimportant
but i'm still fuckin' me, that's gotta be worth something right??
No it doesn't gotta be worth a thang.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
GrimaceTheFrog
Actually Stonehenge



Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 529
Loc: aussieland
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Grimmy101]
#12303223 - 03/31/10 12:52 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
fuck
-------------------- no
|
Tony
Stranger

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 958
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Grimmy101]
#12303232 - 03/31/10 12:54 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The awareness is already there, it's just "hidden" underneath all the social conditioning, confusion etc. Meditation, as I understand it, is the aim to isolate the awareness from everything else by dwelling deeper into reduced states of consciousness, i.e. letting go of your self.
That's not so easy. Even when I trip on liberty caps, there's still this on-going mental process that is trying to explain reality as it arises, and I keep identifying with it rather than emptiness. Letting go is mighty difficult. (Dalai Lama has not attained enlightenment by the way, and he has doubts about being a reincarnate Bodhisattva of compassion.)
Wilber also emphasizes shadow work besides meditation. Shadow is simply the denied part of your mind. While a few people attain enlightenment spontaneously, for most people it requires some "effort". This is at least partly because of the shadow, which will keep coming back as long as it's ignored, like that graving you're not supposed to have. You can not simply deny the parts in you that grave for material satisfaction. You have to methodically expose them and allow them to disintegrate in the scorching light of awareness and non-attachment. Or you can also identify with them, if that's your thing.
Quote:
to behave like a Buddha
Yeah, but to me that doesn't mean you have to behave in any puritan way. It's about expression. "A path to the eternal mind, shining through the enlightened being in samsara."
|
DimensionX
King of Birds


Registered: 09/26/07
Posts: 5,486
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 1 day
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Tony]
#12303256 - 03/31/10 01:02 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
If you can break through those thought processes while tripping it truly is an amazing experience. Not necessarily related to dosage either. My best experience was on one hit of acid.
You raise some very interesting points and i think they are true. I think stopping looking for enlightenment is a good way to remove attachment. I think removing bad karma is very important as well because these are the negative thought process which cloud us from the truth. The karma is very complex though, its not just about good actions, although these are very beneficial, its about good thought. Its a massive process of learning about yourself and how you interact with others, its very intellectual in a sense. I don't necessarily believe in reincarnation, but i do believe it would take many life times to remove all negative karma, but regardless, for my own good in this life, i try to remove as much as i can.
|
Arden
לנשום

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: DimensionX]
#12303305 - 03/31/10 01:16 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
You become liberated, but you were already empty to begin with.
Then what's the fun in finding that out? The journey is the destination. As we (maybe just I) wake up every morning and re-synthesize a 1,000 reasons and goals for existence, it makes the game of hop scotch fun. To completely see behind the curtains spoils the magic.
|
Tony
Stranger

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 958
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Arden]
#12303735 - 03/31/10 05:48 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Arden said:
Quote:
You become liberated, but you were already empty to begin with.
Then what's the fun in finding that out? The journey is the destination. As we (maybe just I) wake up every morning and re-synthesize a 1,000 reasons and goals for existence, it makes the game of hop scotch fun. To completely see behind the curtains spoils the magic.
I guess if the goal is to get everyone enlightened, then we can ask what was the point in starting the karmic wheel in the first place.
Like Wilber says in the video I posted, no one (he knows of) has really solved the dilemma of the absolute and the relative.
I guess it's about development in some direction. Part of growing up is dealing with paradoxes and ambivalence, experiencing different conflicting emotions simultaneously. So, if enlightenment is becoming fully aware of non-dual awareness and ever-present perfection, the newly realized paradox is that things are both complete and incomplete, perhaps eternally.
What I was trying to express with this thread is that there is no honest way to bliss out from samsara. Even after enlightenment there is a paradox. There is always a paradox.
|
moi
Stranger


Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 843
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Tony]
#12303765 - 03/31/10 06:09 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
There's still work to be done after enlightenment.
who still has work to do in order to achieve what? (two questions) serious questions. especially if you have a point, then the second question really interests me. the first is for you to ponder about
|
Tony
Stranger

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 958
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: moi]
#12303887 - 03/31/10 07:23 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The mind and the body have work to do, atoms and energy waves have work to do. They are transformed and transcended in the process of enlightenment, but not destroyed by it. And there's still collective enlightenment to strive for, as well as the on-going diversification of conscious experience.
The universe didn't give rise to temporal multiplicity only to rudely reject it at every recognition of timelessness.
Anyway, this is getting too theoretical. I want to get enlightened first, then I'll come back with some new opinions. Hah.
|
wellage
Strange

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 2,467
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Arden]
#12304030 - 03/31/10 08:13 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Making a conscious effort to be Buddha is pointless. In order to develop awareness of the WHOLE one must LEARN ABOUT ONESELF, and follow the immaterial thread that connects them to their everpresent self as a realized being.
CONSCIOUSLY all I try to do is to be MORE HUMAN. I don't try to be Buddha, I just try to be more human.
|
Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Tony]
#12304088 - 03/31/10 08:31 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
moi said:
Quote:
There's still work to be done after enlightenment.
who still has work to do in order to achieve what? (two questions) serious questions.

Quote:
Tony said: The mind and the body have work to do, atoms and energy waves have work to do. They are transformed and transcended in the process of enlightenment, but not destroyed by it. And there's still collective enlightenment to strive for, as well as the on-going diversification of conscious experience.
The universe didn't give rise to temporal multiplicity only to rudely reject it at every recognition of timelessness.
Enlightenment includes the realization that everything happens perfectly by itself, atoms & energy waves move as they will, but your sense of self is no longer held within that movement.
One of the main obstacles beings face when waking up to their true nature is feeling that if identity is cut with temporal things then somehow things will stop moving, but this is still attachment.
Really when you do not identify with (attach to) any thing, the movement of things unfolds more beautifully, rather than being personal, contractive & full of fear, the movement becomes universal, expansive and full of love.
--------------------
|
Tony
Stranger

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 958
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Chronic7]
#12304253 - 03/31/10 09:16 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
What is it that identifies with temporal things or non-dual awareness? The mind?
If so, then enlightenment is an unfolding process as much as darwinian evolution. And seeing that only a small percentage of world's population is unenlightened, in a practical sense, it's still work in progress.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Tony]
#12304307 - 03/31/10 09:29 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I'm just a silly millimeter away from full enlightenment.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Arden
לנשום

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω
|
Re: Personal liberation for selfish bastards [Re: Icelander]
#12304853 - 03/31/10 11:17 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I guess it's about development in some direction. Part of growing up is dealing with paradoxes and ambivalence, experiencing different conflicting emotions simultaneously. So, if enlightenment is becoming fully aware of non-dual awareness and ever-present perfection, the newly realized paradox is that things are both complete and incomplete, perhaps eternally.
What I was trying to express with this thread is that there is no honest way to bliss out from samsara. Even after enlightenment there is a paradox. There is always a paradox.
I agree with this.
Struggling to rationalize and make sense of all the paradoxes causes a lot of stress in most people, leading some to shave their head, eat mostly rice, and wear saggy robes. Others on the opposite side of the spectrum fly a plane into an IRS building.
I like to think I am both a participant in the whirling, buzzing drama, and also an observer on the sidelines, chillaxing in a serious metaphysical hammock.
It does "seem" like enlightenment and existence is this entangled phenomena, but this could all just be a pre-programmed dreamworld being fabricated by the sleeping pet robot of an alien family on Planet Pullmyfanger.
|
|