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InvisibleSclorch
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Brain Death & Sense of Time
    #1229987 - 01/18/03 10:26 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

jdm posted this:
"One thing that might happen before you die is that your brain turns that one last millisecond into an eternity. Your sense of time completely stops. It could turn into a dream state, what you think the afterlife would be or maybe another reailty, or what you percieve to be reality. "

At least some of us have pondered this concept before...
But I'll restate it: what WOULD it be like if we lost our sense of time (global sensory loss is assumed)?


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1230365 - 01/19/03 06:11 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Time becomes a moment and the moment is forever.

MAIA


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Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
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Anonymous

Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1230374 - 01/19/03 06:20 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting concept.

I am assuming you are referring to the complete abolition rather than merely a substitution.

In earlier days time was marked season to season, sunrise to sunset.

Enter Descartes.

After that man adopted a mechanistic point of view of time which has plagued us to this day. The universe and the answers to its mysteries cannot be framed within such a tiny paradigmatic schema.

Without any concept of time it would be impossible to exist as we know existence. Other than that the question seems to me to be a nonsensical one. Anyone can string together a group of words and put a question mark after it. But that does not automatically mean that it makes sense or has any rational answer.

Cheers


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1230376 - 01/19/03 06:22 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Everyone here knows that our concept of time is bullshit, anyway. It would be interesting to count the hours (hehe) that I stared at a clock while tripping, wondering what this stuff is all about. Digital clocks are the most weird. You try to make sense of the symbols displayed in one second, and then, CLICK, it changes before you can examine it closely enough. The switch from 59 seconds to 00 seconds, especially, is mind blowing. You wouldn't expect that, would you?

"What is time, but a variety of one thing?" - A. O. Spare

"Time is what the clock tells." - A. Einstein


Edited by Nomad (01/19/03 06:23 AM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1230384 - 01/19/03 06:34 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I've often wondered if our "sense" of time is actually our sense of spatiality.Since we exist in a time /space universe and we are more closely able to relate to the concept of space(material,measurable,directly experienced)than time(experienced subjectively,measured arbitrarily,intangible).So my premise is that our subjective experience of time is actually the awareness of the in-flux nature of time/space rather than the perception of only a portion of the wholeness of time/space or the sensory separation of time and space.IMO our sense of space is directly tied to our sense of time removing one would of necessity remove the other.In the abscence of the perception of time and space there is only consciousness with no point of reference.I believe users of strong dissassociatives experience moments of this state of timeless/spacelessness but the drug effects alter the experience from a true separation of the perception of time. I believe there have been patients with selective brain damage who's experiences have been documented.things such as the loss of all short term memory will severely alter ones sensation of time and I think there are other examples of selective brain damage affecting timesense.Again another thought provoking post Sclorch :wink: Hat's off to ya :grin: WR   


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: whiterasta]
    #1230864 - 01/19/03 10:50 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I've often wondered if our "sense" of time is actually our sense of spatiality.Since we exist in a time /space universe

The "spatial" model of time actually fits nicely with current physical theories and observations. I think this is the correct (or close) way to look at time... If we lived in a multi-dimensional universe and we could only visualize three spatial dimensions, how would we experience the other higher dimensions? ... time?

Does this mean that time has 3 degrees of freedom of movement? It seems to go only in one direction... But that might be like saying that gravity only goes down... and from our limited perspective, we are seeing time being acted on by a higher dimensional "gravitional well."

If we didn't experience time, would it be eternity that we experience? or would we be stuck in a moment? Is there a difference? I guess the last thing you experience in time will become your eternity.


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Anonymous

Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1230925 - 01/19/03 11:27 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

But once we're "dead", we cease to be humans; and our perception of time as an unalterable linear process is not what it really is. We only see it this way because of how we are built (ie. our DNA) as humans.

To quote another source, time is "selective and variable". The past, present, and future are actually taking place simultaneously, but this isn't the way we perceive it. To us time "travel" seems impossible, but it is actually a normal thing for other realities. Their is no beginning and end. Everything is happening at once.


Edited by Anonymous (01/19/03 06:11 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1230989 - 01/19/03 12:04 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Something else I forgot to add...

If you take a high dose of DXM, you might be close to what it would feel like if you lost your sense of time, since this is what it seems like. Time becomes so meaningless as to become nearly nonexistent, and events seem to happen at random without due cause. Another thing you lose sense of is this weird thing humans call "temperature".  :confused:  :grin:  Truely an odd experience! 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: ]
    #1231584 - 01/19/03 05:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Mr_Mushrooms: I am assuming you are referring to the complete abolition rather than merely a substitution.

No... it could be temporary.  We might not be able to remember what it feels like in such a state, but that's a tangential issue.

Mr_Mushrooms: Without any concept of time it would be impossible to exist as we know existence. Other than that the question seems to me to be a nonsensical one. Anyone can string together a group of words and put a question mark after it. But that does not automatically mean that it makes sense or has any rational answer.

And you call me a skeptic?  :laugh:

I know this question is ultimately unanswerable (when assuming "the complete abolition), but that doesn't make it nonsensical. 


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Anonymous

Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1231677 - 01/19/03 06:15 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms: I am assuming you are referring to the complete abolition rather than merely a substitution.

No... it could be temporary.  We might not be able to remember what it feels like in such a state, but that's a tangential issue.




I was referring to something permanent on both counts. What you are saying is what if we lost our sense of time temporarily, no?  Complete abolition as I meant it was that there would be no sense of time instead of a difference sense of time like ringing a bell at the beginning and close of everyday.  You seem to be saying something else.  It is very possible under the influence of psychomimetic drugs to have time distortion or even perhaps time abolition.  I was referring to normal cognitive states.

Quote:

Mr_Mushrooms: Without any concept of time it would be impossible to exist as we know existence. Other than that the question seems to me to be a nonsensical one. Anyone can string together a group of words and put a question mark after it. But that does not automatically mean that it makes sense or has any rational answer.

And you call me a skeptic?  :laugh:

I know this question is ultimately unanswerable (when assuming "the complete abolition), but that doesn't make it nonsensical. 




Are you intimating that I am more of a skeptic than you?  That is quite possible. :smile:

To me any question that concerns everyday experience and is unanswerable in terms of everyday experience is a nonsensical question.

Examples:

How big is the mind?
What does the color blue smell like?
Where is eternity?
What does Granite think?
Who is under my Utah?
Can you pass the heavy?
Am I turtle dingle the clam?

Et Cetera, et cetera, and of course, et cetera.  :smile: 


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: ]
    #1231850 - 01/19/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

How big is the mind?

The size of one universe.

What does the color blue smell like?

Like all the other colors.

Where is eternity?

In your mind.

What does Granite think?

"Maybe I should fall down. Where's gravity when you need it?"

Who is under my Utah?

Under Utah is the next question, which is:

Can you pass the heavy?

Yes, but you couldn't handle it.  :wink:

Am I turtle dingle the clam?

Nope. You are Mr Mushrooms. 


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1231877 - 01/19/03 07:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Alright, I have thought about this very question a lot. I had my own little theory about this. There's some theory in physics where two things can never fully reach each other. You can cut a distance by half an infinite amount of times and still never reach your destination. Well, applied to the concept of death and time, who says you ever fully reach death. I think maybe as you approach death, your concious time frame comes infinitely close to your moment of death without ever reaching it. You may appear to have died relative to everyone else, but to yourself you may continue to live on indefinitely in some kind of suspended dream state. (i.e. heaven, reincarnation, etc. etc.)
I also heard that there is some kind of unique chemical reaction that occurs in the brain at death, does anyone have any information about this?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: bert]
    #1231923 - 01/19/03 07:29 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I have long held the same view.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: bert]
    #1231964 - 01/19/03 07:40 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Also, this kind of time distortion would probably fit in nicely with the people who claim to have lived an entire live in a lucid dream, or on a ten minutes salvia trip.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: bert]
    #1231973 - 01/19/03 07:43 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

bert: think maybe as you approach death, your concious time frame comes infinitely close to your moment of death without ever reaching it.

Hehe... so, you have an asymptotic view of death?

I also heard that there is some kind of unique chemical reaction that occurs in the brain at death, does anyone have any information about this?

You're probably thinking of the release of DMT (from the pineal gland). However, no one knows if the brain "intends" on releasing this DMT or if it is just a consequence of brain death.
I'm sure a few people will try to bring up Rick Strassman's DMT: The Spirit Molecule as "proof" (of whatever)... but it's more of a survey than anything (I own it and have read it thoroughly- it's interesting, but it's not breakthrough stuff). The truth is that there hasn't been enough research into this subject (DMT release) for there to be a conclusive answer.

Back to the topic...


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Sclorch]
    #1232007 - 01/19/03 07:51 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Back to the topic...

Just two more things...

1. Terence McKenna gave DMT to a shaman, trying to introduce him to the tykes. The shaman tripped, came back, and was impressed, but not surprised. "Oh, these are the ancestors." He already knew them.

2. Richard Strassman established (well, sort of) that the human brain releases DMT at the moment of death.

Connect the dots, anyone?


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Nomad]
    #1232012 - 01/19/03 07:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Nomad, that was cool

And Sclorch, nice new avatar; I just noticed it


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Anonymous

Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Nomad]
    #1232019 - 01/19/03 07:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Back to the topic...

Just two more things...

1. Terence McKenna gave DMT to a shaman, trying to introduce him to the tykes. The shaman tripped, came back, and was impressed, but not surprised. "Oh, these are the ancestors." He already knew them.

2. Richard Strassman established (well, sort of) that the human brain releases DMT at the moment of death.

Connect the dots, anyone?




You're getting closer.


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Invisiblebert
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: Nomad]
    #1232032 - 01/19/03 08:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Ok, so the brain releases DMT during death? This might account for near death experiences when the brain is 'tricked' into thinking the body is dying...I think more research definitely needs to be done. Now all we need is some dying people and some DMT.But anyways, back to the topic...
by the way, sclorch, I guess I do have an asymptotic view of death. Thank you for teaching me a new word.


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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.


Edited by bert (01/19/03 08:04 PM)


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Brain Death & Sense of Time [Re: ]
    #1232042 - 01/19/03 08:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You're getting closer.

I do? I honestly hope we will all be tykes one day. The tykes are so fucking cool, I get tears in my eyes just by reading about them.


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