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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
To yeild to dominance is to be dominated
    #1224825 - 01/16/03 10:20 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Most of this crowd demonstrates this enlightened attitude, in choosing to ignore certain rules of society. Yet, paradoxically, they insist that the exact same system of rules and regulations must be followed to serve their own purposes, and in doing so prove themselves to be duplicates of those who deny their liberties.

What I am interested in is the internal process of justifying this. How can one declare that A deciding what B does is unjust, and then institute identical policies of their own, and claim that they are not only just, but necessary, and indeed "right(eous)".

"Freedom defined is Freedom denied." I don't remember who said that, I probably saw it in someone's sig.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." Aleister Crowley. It went something like that.

Anyhow, I don't think it's "right" or "wrong;" these entirely subjective notions make no difference and are essentially meaningless outside of a vaccum (the realms of fantasy or fiction, for instance). Again, I am merely curious.

ps: The Illuminatus! Trilogy is the grooviest book I've ever read.


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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Ulysees]
    #1224989 - 01/17/03 12:36 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think maybe we know we are not so advanced as to escape the reality of a primitive society with rules and 'rights' and 'wrongs'. So we have to form some sort of order I guess.
I think what matters is we're looking at all sides of issues and considering them with open minds. At the moment, significantly different results from those of our society may be hard to come by, but I believe our intentions maintain a sense of flexible purity over the otherwise black & white viewpoint of society.


did that make sense?


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Anonymous

Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Ulysees]
    #1225341 - 01/17/03 05:24 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Good thread!

There is no such thing as no rules or no morality. There are merely different rules or moralities. The Christian Right accuses people like ourselves of having no morality but what they are referring to is the fact that our morality is different.

They say: Killing babies is immoral because you are taking a human life.

We say: Forcing a woman to have a baby against her will is immoral because it violates her right to choose.

There is no way around this conundrum.

Peace


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: ]
    #1225363 - 01/17/03 05:36 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

That is the essence of freedom in my opinion.Being able to decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong.As long as you do not hurt another.(Some people believe that abortion is hurting another).

On the other hand,in order for our governers to establish the kind of society that they want,there must be standards.There are to many conflicts of interest otherwise.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (01/17/03 05:45 AM)


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Ulysees]
    #1225457 - 01/17/03 06:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Good thread for sure.

"Most of this crowd demonstrates this enlightened attitude, in choosing to ignore certain rules of society. Yet, paradoxically, they insist
that the exact same system of rules and regulations must be followed to serve their own purposes, and in doing so prove themselves to
be duplicates of those who deny their liberties.

What I am interested in is the internal process of justifying this. How can one declare that A deciding what B does is unjust, and then
institute identical policies of their own, and claim that they are not only just, but necessary, and indeed "right(eous)".


Hmmmmm, I'm assuming what you mean by "rules of society" as the normal "get a house with a white picket fence, and high paying job" standards (thats probably a bad example. but im sure you get it.), right?

Well I do think it is necessary to try and liberate ones self from the reward-punishment mechanism that society imposes on you and internalize your own mechanism of reward. But this isnt necessarily because societies rules are bad, but more because it isnt very fun if things outside of you are completely in control of you emotional attention. There is no avoiding the fact, though, that society needs rules. And there is no avoiding socialization. But, these things can get out of hand when a person is so conformed to them that they cant even imagine breaking any of their rules. Dont you think so?


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focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineRemy
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Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Ulysees]
    #1225471 - 01/17/03 06:31 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Although there are unjust laws, the majority of them are for the good of the majority. Laws are important. In order to have a society that works, you need to prevent others from harm, while still allowing people the freedom to make their own decisions. The place where one must draw the line, is when those freedoms cause others some form of harm. Drug laws, for instance are unjust, and misplaced. We should not be persecuting any drug users who use drugs on their own time, and do not harm others. It is when a drug user harms another, while on drugs, that we should punish them (more severely than if they had not been on drugs). Certain rules are not only important but neccasary, while others are bullshit. If you feel a rule, or a law is unjust, then do not obey it, you are still free to break any rules that may stand in your path.


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Offlinesirreal
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Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Remy]
    #1225553 - 01/17/03 06:56 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

you are still free to break any rules that may stand in your path.






Yeah, and lose your freedom if you get caught!


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Ulysees]
    #1225828 - 01/17/03 08:54 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Grav
>I think maybe we know we are not so advanced as to escape the reality of a primitive society with rules and 'rights' and 'wrongs'. So we have to form some sort of order I guess.

We don't "have" to do anything. We don't even have to eat, if we don't want to. We will of course die sooner than most, but the choice is always the individual's.
If you go along with something because it's easier, often not a "bad" idea at all, do not dress it up as necessary or right to make yourself feel better. You're simply going with the flow, which could go anywhere, at any time.
You needn't be "advanced" to "say No." Animals do it all the time. My little poodle, for instance, refuses to be my uncle's dog's bitch. His dog is a large rottweiler cross thing, and my dog reaches about its knees, standing side by side. Yet my dog will not hesitate to fight the much larger dog (until someone intervenes) if the larger dog messes with it. Were she as "advanced" as us, she would understand fear, and compromise her liberty for the fear of harm.

>I think what matters is we're looking at all sides of issues and considering them with open minds. At the moment, significantly different results from those of our society may be hard to come by, but I believe our intentions maintain a sense of flexible purity over the otherwise black & white viewpoint of society.


did that make sense?

Yes, it did. However, the Shroomery society still sees things in black and white. That they are not always the very same things as the outside society makes little difference. The hinderance of "society" remains.

Mr. Mushrooms
>Good thread!

Thank you.

>There is no such thing as no rules or no morality. There are merely different rules or moralities.

Never say never. :wink:
As someone once said (don't remember who), "The delusions of one man are [crime?]. The delusions of many men are religion." Well, it went something like that.

>The Christian Right accuses people like ourselves of having no morality but what they are referring to is the fact that our morality is different.

They say: Killing babies is immoral because you are taking a human life.

We say: Forcing a woman to have a baby against her will is immoral because it violates her right to choose.

There is no way around this conundrum.

There is. If one simply decides to not call it a conundrum, you will find that it ceases to be one. Difference of opinion is natural. If the Christian Right wants to be tied to a system of ridiculous "morality," they sure as hell can. They can even try to stop abortions. You can try to stop them from trying to stop abortions if you want, but if you believe that you are "right," know that you are tied to a ridiculous system of morality. If someone wants an abortion, they'll have it. If no one is available to do it, they can try themselves, or abort that plan instead.

I see no conundrum. I see only a game that so many people love to take part in.

>Peace

ah, but whose brand are you offering? :wink:
Thanks for the sentiment, though. :smile:

sirreal
>That is the essence of freedom in my opinion.Being able to decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong.As long as you do not hurt another.(Some people believe that abortion is hurting another).

I consider freedom to be the transcendance of the "right" and "wrong" mentality. It is a game. The rules are always changing. The sides are not static.

>On the other hand,in order for our governers to establish the kind of society that they want,there must be standards.There are to many conflicts of interest otherwise.

Exactly. "Standards" are imposed to maintain order. Since order doesn't exist, however, and the game is constantly changing, all that has been achieved is a "society" of deluded individuals.

I'll get back to this later. I am going to eat now, because I want to. 


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Offlinesirreal
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Registered: 01/11/03
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Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Ulysees]
    #1225963 - 01/17/03 09:28 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

What are you saying ulysees? That if we gave up every notion of right and wrong that we would be better or more natural.You seem to be saying that the only way we can be truly free is to give up our conscience and do what ever we please! Am I right?
I am just asking a question. I do see the essence of what you are saying.I think.


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


Edited by sirreal (01/17/03 09:30 AM)


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Ulysees]
    #1225998 - 01/17/03 09:47 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Right on, man.

There are only very basic rules, such as "in order to continue to interact with this physical world, one must stay alive in one's physical body.." and things like that.

Aside from these simple, very reduced rules, there really aren't any at all; merely action and reaction.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: sirreal]
    #1227656 - 01/17/03 09:23 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Ya sirreal, you're in the groove. It's nothing to fear. It's not like everyone will kill themselves or eachother. Things might actually be exactly as they are ...

It's more of an acceptance of chaos than a change towards it. Chaos reigns supreme. Embrace it. What have you got to lose? Have you actually got any choice? :laugh:

Don't delude yourself. It's unbecoming. :grin:


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Strumpling]
    #1227666 - 01/17/03 09:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Strumpling, you are the shit.

Let the apes revel in the glory of existence! (Can we skip to the part with the orgies on every street corner, now?) :grin: 


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Anonymous

Re: To yeild to dominance is to be dominated [Re: Ulysees]
    #1227800 - 01/17/03 10:36 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Dude, how long have you been coming here?

You have thousands of posts and been here since October of 2001, right?

See this  thread?

Hey, I think you're a great guy and all and I really appreciate your attitude and the things you post about, but...........

No cross posting. :smile:

Thread locked. 


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