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Anonymous

US foreign policy.
    #1224638 - 01/16/03 06:04 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Saddam was a genocidal madman 15 years ago when we were supplying him with the weapons we now say we must take back. Why weren't we trying to take him out of power back then to free the Iraqis we suddenly care so much about?

There are lots of horrible leaders and oppressed people in the world. Why aren't we going after all of them?

Why are terrorists who attack us on our soil supposed to be the rest of the world's problem as well as ours, yet in Russia when Chechen rebels kill civilians we label those terrorists "rebels" and offer no help? Yet we label countries who refuse to help us in our own fight as sponsors of terrorism? Why?

Why are we not going to war with North Korea, when it is common knowledge they are engaging in illegal nuclear conduct?

How can our country consider it ethical to use Iraq's resources to pay for us to attack them? Could it be that maybe that was all over the news to get the idea of us taking their oil into people's heads in a not so blatant manner?

A whole lot of double standards. I don't like double standards. Double standards point to ulterior motives and bullshit politics.

I'd love to believe everything that goes in in terms of the US foreign policy is all peaches and cream, and we set a good example, but I'd have to ignore all of the above and countless other things I won't get into in this post.

Being American does not mean you blindly accept what authorities tell you and don't ask any questions. Ask questions, think outside of what mass media tells you, and be open to other possibilities. Bush is heading our country towards disaster and few people care enough to speak up. Fewer still are brave enough to admit to themselves that America, land of the free, has become nothing more than an empty slogan and in fact we are behaving like a bully to the rest of the world. It's a hard realization to accept, but deluding yourself just so you can go on being proud of your country is not only asinine, but dangerous.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." - Abraham Lincoln

If you disagree with me I respect that. I would like to know though, why don't the points I make above mean anything to you? If they do but there are counterpoints that you feel outweighs them, what exactly are they?

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1224650 - 01/16/03 06:08 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Truer words were never spoken. 5 shrooms to you!


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinebluesky
mushroom cowboy

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 561
Last seen: 20 years, 11 months
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1224670 - 01/16/03 06:18 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

you are completely right. Being Patriotic doesnt mean to blindly defend the horrible decisions that our country makes. Being Patriotic means seeing and identifying a problem in your country and trying to make a change by encouraging and telling the truth and your opinions instead of only hearing what the TV tells you. I thank you for saying this and I thank you for opening my eyes a little wider.  :laugh: I just hope that this country isnt destroyed before I move to Canada. 


--------------------
You're my blue sky, you're my sunny day,
Lord you know it makes me high when you turn your love my way. Turn your love my waaaaaay, Yea.
-Richard (Dickey) Betts

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1225349 - 01/17/03 03:28 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Amen Fiend.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1227319 - 01/17/03 05:15 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

No one who disagrees with my views cares to step up and explain why?

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1227337 - 01/17/03 05:19 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I like taking Walmart runs at 5 am on a sunday. I will KILL to protect that.

Get off your high horse. There is no Draft. Free Individuals are choosing to GO to WAR. Free Individuals will be fighting that war for them. They will be helping to secure your immediate economic security in the process. The economic security that enables you to publicly complain about HOW it is secured.

The same security that all industrialized, free societies enjoy at the expense of ................................................................................................... everyone else.



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1227555 - 01/17/03 06:31 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Free Individuals are choosing to GO to WAR

You sure George Bush isn't choosing for them?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1227617 - 01/17/03 07:02 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

>Get off your high horse.

Gee, I was trying to keep this as respectable as possible. If you can't handle that, go away. If you can, why don't you at the very least address what I have said instead of spewing meaningless "It's good to be American" jargon.

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1227694 - 01/17/03 07:42 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

If the order is rotten and the authority vicious, the duty of the citizen is to obey his or her conscience in preferance to that authority. And if the only sure way of reconstituting a just social order is to stage arevolution against a tyrannical and illegal authority-well, then, it must be done.

-Pierre Trudeau


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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OfflineVoodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Nelly Ville
Last seen: 21 years, 4 months
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1227990 - 01/18/03 01:48 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

The problems in your country can be fixed with alot of work and effort of ppl all around the world, and we will. He has to change his foreign affairs it's no secret. He must come of some of his standpoints, like War On Drugs. etc. but it can be done.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1228995 - 01/18/03 12:02 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

OIL is the short response to all of your arguments. Resources is the long answer.

No country in the world is succesful at sharing them Equally. The best you can hope for is to live in a country that gives you the freedom to USE them equally, and will do whatever it takes to guarentee access to RESOURCES.

Argue all you want you are preaching to the choir. I never once said I like WAR, or like the Evil that we are forced to do to eachother to secure the limited resources on the planet. TAKE IT UP WITH GOD.

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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1229013 - 01/18/03 12:08 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TAKE IT UP WITH GOD


One of the best statements I've heard in a long time.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 8 months
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1229256 - 01/18/03 02:04 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OIL is the short response to all of your arguments. Resources is the long answer.

No country in the world is succesful at sharing them Equally. The best you can hope for is to live in a country that gives you the freedom to USE them equally, and will do whatever it takes to guarentee access to RESOURCES.

Argue all you want you are preaching to the choir. I never once said I like WAR, or like the Evil that we are forced to do to eachother to secure the limited resources on the planet. TAKE IT UP WITH GOD.




So basically you're saying that we're going to kill a lot of innocent men, women, and children in order to secure CHEAP and EASY access to a resource whose very use is one of the factors destroying earth's capacity to support life. We're not doing this because Iraq has the last proven oil reserves left in the world or anything like that--no, we're doing it because we want gas for a dollar a gallon, so that we can drive our SUVs around for cheap and jack up the greenhouse effect to go as fast as it possibly can. Instead of mass transit and conservation and intensive R&D of alternate energy sources, we want slaughter and pollution because . . . well, because it's just more convenient . And you're also basically saying that you don't have a problem with that.

As much as I detest your thinking, I have to give you credit for at least being so honest about it. You have no morality and you don't have any delusions about having any and you're at peace with yourself about it. That kind of self-honesty is a very rare thing. I wonder if President Bush has that same kind of ruthlessly honest self-understanding, or whether he actually believes that he's a human being.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1229862 - 01/18/03 06:58 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

You have an interesting take on the matter, one I'd never thought of before. You basically seem to have no illusions of us going to Iraq for humanitairan reason, and accept what is going on as a sort of necessary evil. You also have no illusions that the reason we are going is in fact more about oil than anything.

It would be one thing if the Bush administration put it like you do. At least they would be being honest, if nothing else. However, they don't. They claim we are doing it because Saddam is a threat to us, and so we can liberate the poor Iraqi people.

I guess I just can't politics. I don't like people being lied to. If we were going for a legitimate reason, why do they have to skew and sugar coat it?

If it's to fool the Arab world, and not so much the Americans, they're doing a very poor job as the Islam world is about ready to have an all out holy war against the US and it's interests.

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1230999 - 01/19/03 10:10 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Fiend, I strongly agree with you!

America, land of the free huh?
Actually, it is a two party dictatorship (the differences between them are meaningless). Ohhh, and don't forget how Bush got elected, a v?ritable chef-d`oeuvre.

Since when does America care about humanitarian issues??
Have they done something to prevent the Uguanda genocide?
I don't know people accept and believe the feeble-minded war justifications... It is a shame.
About the eventual war in Irak, what RIGHT has the USA to attack it?
"MAYBE they have some chemical weapons and they MIGHT use it"
There you go, their main argument. As you may see, it doesn't make any sense at all.
USA might use nuclear weapons; it already did that two times.
ISRAEL has nuclear weapons and it already threatened Irak with its missiles (it has violated a UN resolution; don't worry, they are violating UN resolutions every day) but ouups, I forgot, that country is an "alli?"

It is sad because U.S. backed Saddam Hussein in a bloody war against the post- Shah Iran. Do you remember that little media manipulation bullshit with the american ambassador's daughter crying about Irak's soldiers killing babies?
Fake, of course, but hey, they got a  justification for a war!

Teonan, you seem to be happy about going to Wallmart at 5 am...
The American way of life... Have you ever heard of overconsumption?
Just a little thought:
Suppose that everyone on this planet should live like Americans. We would need two planets for ressources and another one where we should put our garbage...

It is sad that such a nice country like USA is a tyran for the other countries.
But after all, even the great empire of Rome felt down. I'm just waiting that day  :wink:   

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1231013 - 01/19/03 10:17 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ohhh, and don't forget how Bush got elected, a v?ritable chef-d`oeuvre.



Bush was put into office by the rules in place at the time of the election. All the Supreme Court did was to rule that the rules could not be changed in mid stream. For people to say or imply that the court "selected" the President is foolish at best, an out and out lie at worst.

If you don't like the rules, work to change them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1231179 - 01/19/03 11:49 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

The rules in place at the time?

Good God man, there was a bit more to it than that.

You must be an ardent Bush supporter.





--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1231226 - 01/19/03 12:14 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

You know what it is funny?
I didn't talk about the rules or about courts, etc (courts, as if there is justice, pathetic)
But the ELECTORAL SYSTEM itself. About a  quarter of prospective voters voted for Mr Bushie.
:smirk:

I think the shroomery is not a good place to talk politics heh
I better stick to the mushroom cultivation! 

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1231411 - 01/19/03 01:44 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The rules in place at the time?

Good God man, there was a bit more to it than that.

You must be an ardent Bush supporter.



Yes or perhaps I should have said by the laws in place.

Of course I'm a Bush supporter. The best man won, fair and square. Get over it. He'll win a second term as well.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1231473 - 01/19/03 02:30 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

He'll win a second term as well.



God help us all!  :shocked:


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1231849 - 01/19/03 05:08 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I had the same reaction to Teonan's post. The blissfully self-deluded citizens of the first world need to stand up and say, "Alright! We admit it! We don't care about anyone else but our own kind, we've got it pretty fucking good, and we're willing to kill off the rest of the world to keep our good life JUST THE WAY IT IS!"

Cut to the chase, you know? Like Swift's "A Modest Proposal"

Of course, to be that honest, you may want to check your "morals" at the door. At least, I personally don't see coexistence possible. In fact the only way a self-professed moral thinker (and how many of us aren't? Teonan is a rare exception) can spare himself the wrath of his conscience is to fail or unconsciously refuse to see the connection between his high-energy, high consumption life and certain global issues and certain foreign policies.

God forbid a human with a conscience connect the dots, and find him or herself in the equation. Better to maintain the paradoxical mixture of expansionism and isolationism (I can explain that if anyone's confused).

I know this kind of rant puts some of you off. Sorry. I don't shit a huge give, and it sure is fun to type. (Holy shit, I'm turning into voodoo.)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: hongomon]
    #1232439 - 01/19/03 09:42 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

So let me see.... anyone who doesn't agree with your stand on issues is misguided, deluded, dishonest or lacking in morals?

I'm sure no-one could possibly have thought things through and come to a different conclusion than you.

How nice it must be to have all the answers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/19/03 09:43 PM)

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 14 days
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1232509 - 01/19/03 10:30 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Your right to buy lots of nice shiny things is so important isnt it! Baa! Baa!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 14 days
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1232522 - 01/19/03 10:38 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Your completely missing the point luvdem - Cant you connect the dots? obviously not!


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1233487 - 01/20/03 07:46 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Like I said, I knew I'd put some of you off.

That's my observation, so shoot me. We all like to feel like we're moral agents, and surely in many ways we are. But when we purchase something, whether it be gas or jeans or whatever, we're connecting to a very large, very complex system that has no inherent ethics of its own--isn't it designed to reflect ours?

However, since for the most part we don't consider the ethical ramifications of our purchases (we consider convenience, price, and quality), we passively advocate whatever it is that the great bed buddies big government and big business do, in our own country and all over the world. It's pretty fucked up, but I feel as much a guilty party as anyone. Who considers buying something a moral issue? It's like Psilocybeingzz said about Exxonmobile--they can't do the shit they do if we stop going to their pumps and buying their gas.

So that's the connection as I see it. And yeah, I really do think a lot of people are content to either fail or unconsciously resist making it, because it would clash with their moral base. And if that happened, the options are: face it and try to change one's behavior (difficult but possible); alter or discard one's morals (difficult but possible); or escape into drugs, e.g. take anti-depressants or anti-anxiety meds or get drunk every night (easy).

(edit: there are, of course, plenty of exceptions to this. I think more people are starting to consider ethics when they buy. Still the exception, but plenty of good examples out there.)

Edited by hongomon (01/20/03 07:49 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1233769 - 01/20/03 09:42 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Basically what I am saying is there are no INNOCENT people in the world. Every human being is acting out of self interest. You are choosing to put it in MORAL parameters. Calling them innocent and us guilty. In my mind everyone is guilty of being HUMAN, and following the laws of nature.

What some here will consider overconsumption, I consider SUCCESS. America has the strongest Military in the world because we WORKED REAL HARD and chose to invest that way.

To consider me less human because I see the world for what it really is, and am willing to sacrifice any false pretense at morality, is a COMPLEMENT to me.

I think the Iraqi people will be better off with Saadam removed. With the world attention focused on Iraq presently, the NEW leader of Iraq will be a product of IRAQ, but will definetly be more freindly to the OIL consuming world.

Oil will eventually run out, and we will be forced to DEVELOPE new Fuel sources to power our Society. Hopefullythose that are ANTI-OIL will have been working on those Research and developements. Just think if they are actually working towards alternatives, then they will become the NEW POWER SYSTEM in the FREE WORLD. They will REPLACE the OIL structure that seems to not be interested in NEW technologies.

So PUT your KNOWLEDGE where your mouth is. DEVELOPE THE T$ECHNOLOGIES WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE SUCCESFUL IN THE WORLD. But don't bitch about the power structure that has guarenteed your freedom for the past half century, because you are morally opposed to their methods.

You might find it ironic, but I am an environmentalist. I just know that people tend t0 be excluded from the process in developing environmental laws. If you create laws that don't allow for the expansion of business, the economy will suffer, and PEOPLE will pay the price.

I repeat, I would love to live in EDEN, but that time is long long long long long lost.

Right now the world is overpopulated. Resources ARE limited. We need to work towards developing sustainable business, and lifestyles. The OBJECT is to do so without limiting freedom. Something that SEEMS to always get attacked first by the majority of the BLEEDING hearts that post here. I actually agree with alot of what liberals think, I just STRONGLY disagree with their methods. Equally I disagree with alot of the Conservative Methods. Any method that limits freedom, is the wrong method.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1233793 - 01/20/03 09:54 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

America has the strongest Military in the world because we WORKED REAL HARD and chose to invest that way.

Sounds like Sebastian Bach saying his heavy metal band were the greatest in the world...just before Nirvana wiped them off the face of the earth.

2000 years ago it was the Romans, 100 years ago it was Britain and look where we are now. Don't get too caught up with self-importance.

I think the Iraqi people will be better off with Saadam removed

Depends on who the US installs in power. The US helped install Saddam and supported Saddam remember. Would you really trust the wicked bastards who armed and funded Saddam for 10 years to pick your next leader? I sure as hell wouldn't.

but will definetly be more freindly to the OIL consuming world.

Yep.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233812 - 01/20/03 09:59 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

The difference is USA is a free country, you just think it isn't. The power that be in America got there by using this freedom, that everyone can use in the USA.

Rome was not free. Neither was OLD ENGLAND.

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1233828 - 01/20/03 10:02 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

"What some here will consider overconsumption, I consider SUCCESS. America has the strongest Military in the world because we WORKED REAL HARD and chose to invest that way."

Overconsumption a success...
Then you call yourself an environmentalist??
Why is that ? Because you grow some mushrooms on cow manure thus helping the nature?!
You are basically saying that MONEY is more important than NATURE.

Ohh, and by the way, USA never fought a war for humanitarian reasons!
As Charles de Gaule said, USA doesn`t have any friends, only interests!
:smirk: 

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1233835 - 01/20/03 10:05 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Teonan
I have a great quote for you!
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, and socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality." - Federalism, Socialism and Anti-Theologism, 1867  By M. A  Bakunin :smirk: 

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1233850 - 01/20/03 10:08 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

At the time Saadam was HELPED into power, there were bigger threats to oil security. The powers that be recognized this and assited him in his WARS. Now that he has become a LOOSE CANNON, proven by him rolling into Kuwait. The powers that be, will do everything in their power to GET RID OF HIM.

The entire world attention is focused on IRAQ. The new government there WILL be a PRODUCT OF IRAQ, not the WORLD. They will however be FRIENDLY to the People that enabled them to take back their country. Even if we were the ones that assisted Saadam into power.

This is not going tom solve the ARAB problem. Nothing will solve that but a complete withdraw from the region, which as I have been stating is NEVER going to happen until OIL is not the ONLY source of Energy to FUEL the WESTERN WORLD. So you better start working on the ALTERNATIVES, and spend less time BITCHING about the politics of WAR. No oil company is going to work on an alternative to their PROFIT. Until they are forced to. Oil companies are run by FREE CITIZENS, expressing their freedom. The same freedom I USE to make a profit and sustain my life. To limit theirs means to limit mine. We are INTERCONNECTED. Just like our success is the failure of other nations.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1233867 - 01/20/03 10:11 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Neither was OLD ENGLAND.

Eh? Britain was as much a democracy in the empire days as america is today.

Just remember that things change. Poison were a helluva important band in 1990. I'm sure they were saying things like "We're the best and biggest in the world right now cos we worked hard and we're really talented". In 1991 they were through.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1233868 - 01/20/03 10:12 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Freedom is relative. In the end, the only real freedom anyone has is freedom of thought.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1233884 - 01/20/03 10:16 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

At the time Saadam was HELPED into power, there were bigger threats to oil security.

Not much good to the Iraqi people is it. Helping and funding maniacs as long as they come across with your oil? What kind of way to run a world is that?

The new government there WILL be a PRODUCT OF IRAQ

It ain't always too easy for western puppet regimes. Wait a few years till the attention has died down and see what happens. Look at Afghanistan - they've already come close to shooting the western puppet there. Once the americans pull out he ain't gonna have a whole lot of support.

To limit theirs means to limit mine. We are INTERCONNECTED

Are we interconnected with the people of Iraq at all? Or are they just cannon fodder?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1233892 - 01/20/03 10:17 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom is relative.  In the end, the only real freedom anyone has is freedom of thought. 



You would make an excellent slave. :wink:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Evolving]
    #1233897 - 01/20/03 10:19 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sure not gonna allow myself to be Bush's slave, that's for sure.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1233900 - 01/20/03 10:20 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I am glad you feel that way, I have the same sentiments.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1233958 - 01/20/03 10:39 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

That is a great quote and is exactly where I find myself. I just choose freedom. Even If I am in debt, don't make millions, I have the smallest amount of intrusion into my personal life that MY ancestors have found living in EUROPE, RUSSIA, and GREECE.

My family is free to practice the religion they choose to. Free to earn a living. Free to have kids. There are many limitaions, that I would like to see removed. I do not BELIEVE that a Socially responsible form of Government CAN exist. So I choose to live in the system that GIVES ME the most freedom. Freedom STARTS with money, because money is what buys the NECCESITIES of life. I don't worship the Bartar tool, I worship the products it can get me.

There are only two choices. FREEDOM or Oppresion. To live in a free society means to GIVE UP MORALITY. To live in an OPPRESSED society means to have it taken away. I choose to give up my personal morality when DEVELOPINJG GOVERNMENT. I chose to maintain my personal morality in MY OWN ACTIONS that are not forced upon others.
I chose not to fight in wars. I did not enlist. I chose not to Drive a Gas guzzler. I chose not to do things that offend me. I DO NOT chose to FORCE MY MORALITY ON OTHER FREE INDIVIDUALS.

This is why I can never be a socialist. It is funny that people tend to only see the consumerism of America. They seem to be blind to the fact that YOU CAN WORSHIP freely in this country. You get to chose what you do. You have freedom regardless of RACE, Religion, Ethnicity. Some people just chose to make more money then others, and KNOW and EMBRACE that freedom, at the expense of NON-US citizens.

One day, the world may decide to ATTACK AMERICA, and end the FREEDOM. All I can say is GOOD LUCK. I think it will be FAR more difficult to accomplish then anyone can imagine. If you wanna shut down the machine, you have to attack it economically and RESOURCEFULLY. Killing citizens is NOT the answer. If you are looking for a way to shut down the machine long enough to make a difference, and gain an advantage the ANSWER lies in NATURAL RESOURCES that SERVE the MILITARY COMPLEX. What substance in the world is produced in a single location in the quantity needed to sustain the industrialized world? If this source was neutralized... anything can happen. The last time this resource was threatened we dropped the BOMB twice. I am just thankful Terrorists spend little time at the library reading about Fringe topics like Ethnobotany.


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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1234021 - 01/20/03 10:59 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Poison was never a good band.  Don't delude yourself. :tongue:

 

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1234100 - 01/20/03 11:25 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Bush doesn't have any slaves. He is the president of a free society.

If it makes you feel good to think that those agreeing with some of his foreighn policy are slaves, GREAT. It is just your opinion though.

Everyday every citizen of the united states that isn't incarcerated chooses what to do with their day. They go to the job they chose to, they buy the things they choose to, etc........ They CHOOSE. They are not forced. Vietnam made that a reality. Force within the population that crosses all social economic barriers will be met with FORCE.

THERE IS NO DRAFT. CONGRESS WILL GIVE THE POWER THE PRESIDENT NEEDS TO OBTAIN OIL, BECAUSE AMERICA NEEDS THE OIL TO MAINTAIN. We will even guarentee it for all the pasifisct countries that NEED the oil too. As usual America will take the blame for GOD, and all of humanity.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1234106 - 01/20/03 11:28 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I was referring to his beloved Patriot Act and other attacks on civil liberties. It's getting so you have to watch what you say or else Big Brother will come after you.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1234166 - 01/20/03 12:03 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Teonan, you seem to believe that all other countries which are not like USA, are all dictatorships were people are being force by cops to work or to buy goods!!
I have no idea where that impression comes from, maybe propaganda!

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1234235 - 01/20/03 12:30 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I never meet my great grandparents Because They lived in Countries that did not embrace freedom for all within it's borders. My grandparents escaped with their lives to America, otherwise I would not be here(Alive).

I know that most develped countries are Relatively free like the US. I also know they are because of the EVIL monster that is the USA. Don't ever forget that you are free as well, because OF the USA. You get to be free from Blame, and Free to live relatively free.

So keep blaming the USA, but in the END you are only pointing fingers at yourselves as well.

If you are Middle eastern, Point the finger at yourselves. THERE is NO AMERICAN running any foreighn government. You guys oppress yourselves all on your own.
We just assist those that are willing to keep the masses in check form killing eachother, we occasionally have to replace the Ring leader when he gets a mind of his own.

America won it's independence. WON IT. WON IT. Say it out loud. America fought to be free. Fights to remain free. Will continue to fight to stay free.

Don't try and reduce me to a puppet following a single Leader. I follow myself, no one else. I am free. I KNOW about the other places you refer to, I know because of my dead ancestors. If you wanna call DEATH propaganda go ahead. I live for me and my own, not for you and yours. Last time my family listened to Idealists, the majority of them wound up oppressed, enslaved, and KILLED. My grandparents left EVERYTHING THEY HAD WORKED FOR BEHIND. They started over, and NO IDEALIST is ever going to convince me that this world is a NICE PLACE, or can ever be.


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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1234309 - 01/20/03 01:20 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I don't like any limitations on personal freedom as well. I don't like the Patriot act. But I am able to distinguish between spying on your own citizens and Securing the Oil that fuels the economy, that feeds me and houses me, and protects me from having my most essential liberties taken away.

I have faith that the patriot act will not hold up in the Court system of the USA. Those that write and uphold the laws, have things to keep private as well that don't envolve murder and the destruction of private property. It is difficult to see the light in the system, certainly when you are considered a criminal for your NON-VIOLENT, victimless, actions. But that is what Soclialist thinking results in. Yes even conservatives are guilty of allowing socialism into their politics.

As a socialist, you should LIKE the fact that DRUGS are illegal. Drugs can cause major problems for the iresponsible. Society as a whole would be better off, if Drugs were outlawed completely. Of course, I KNOW that VERY FEW THINGS IN LIFE, everybody agrees on. I want FREEDOM for individuals to chose what is good for them, within society. I want the government to stay out of my life. I only want the government to step in to PROTECT INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, not restrict it.

Of course you are gonna say, What about those other people on the other side of the world. They are not AMERICAN citizens and are not bound by our constitution protections. THEY REALLY DON"T WAN"T THEM. Hell alot of folks here don't want the responsibility that comes with being free. Responsibility for the bagage.

England is the prime example. The people seem to hate American foreighn policy, but their own government, UNDERSTANDS the neccessity for the USA policy.

These days I think ISRAEL is the only NAtion that truley understands the neccessity for being a monster to remain free.

In a perfect world there would be no need for police. Do you think we should eliminate police? Do you have as much faith in the population of your own country as you seem to project onto the IRAQIS.

There is a segment of the worlds population that will KILL, ROB, and VIOLATE you. Someone has to stop this. There is a segment of the world that want's people to be as free as they can be, without the whole system breaking.
There is a segment of the worlds population that would choose to decide for others what is good for society, the world. There is a segment of the worlds population who want to decide for themselves.

Since the worlds population exists on a limited amount of resources, and the population is expanding, not contracting, there is bound to be FIGHTING over the available resources between all these segments. REMEMBER, we all can't live with an equal share, because that would involve, FORCE and OPPRESION.

It would involve the Destruction and prohibition of anything not considered a NECCESSITY. Most of all, it won't work because of corruption. Remember the segment of the population that is willing to ROB, and Violate, and MURDER to obtain what they want instead of working for it.

Limited Resources, Unlimited Viewpoints(cultures and Customs), and some weird human flaw that everyone should act and be just like you are. Mix all this up and you have the WORLD TODAY.

To try and seperate ECONOMICS from SOCIETY is impossible. Things are bought and sold with money, always have been. Money is just a tool, that makes trade easier.

If your answer is isolationism, it is impossible because of that VIOLATING element of the worlds population. If your answer is DEFENSE of borders only, then you HAVEN"T understood the concept of LIMITED RESOURCES and EXPANDING POPULATION.

The USA is guilty of Overthrowing unfriendly governments in an effort to keep WORLD MARKETS from falling into the hands of UNFRIENDLY people. Unfriendly in the sense that they believe in Communism, Fascism, or Fundamentalism that disregard it's citizens health and security in the name of GOD, Morality, or UNIFORM WEALTH.

There is no GOD, without LIFE. There is no LIFE without MONEY. Money buys the stuff that keep you alive and keep you free.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1234541 - 01/20/03 03:12 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

You make preposterous allegations against socialism which have no merit. You also assume that all socialists agree with each other. Get back to me when you grow up.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1234546 - 01/20/03 03:14 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Teonan... Do you happen to drink while posting? :mad:

Firstly, I already lived in a communist country. Why did I came here? Because you always believe the neighbour's grass is greener than yours.
In fact, my parents deeply regret that they came here.

They didn't shoot us, they didn't killed us, they give us many choices, and mainly EDUCATION, which is what you will never have (not only you, but your country)

Secondly, you are basically saying that communism = fascism
Were you talking perhaps of stalinism? Choose the right words dude.

Thirdly, LIFE is not a market. Maybe you should consider that. Money doesn't mean freedom (unless you happen to live in a capitalist country and you are milionaire).

You know why I hate North-America?
The rift between the rich and the poor. It is a shame, unbelievable too!
Also, values and passions don't have their place in this society. As you keep saying, MONEY is important! Hell, people might even sell their souls for money!
It is disgusting.
There was bullshit in URSS, but not as much as in USA.
They GIVE YOU the  FALSE impression that you have education and freedom.
You become the bank's slave. All your life you will work like a peasant for the bourgeoisie. (Unless you already are one of them)

About the overconsumption, I don't know how you can defend that (well, I think you are an egoist). Maybe you think we should be 100 000 people on earth and live like fat pigs. Or perhaps you think there are other planets to be colonized by us.

For the thought control in USA:
Subtle control of Mass-Media. Information is being cut and simplyfied, almost distorted. By the end of the tv presentation, the journalist already gives the conclusion that must be made. No room for CRITICAL THINKING.

By the way, do you remember the protests against the war in Vietman?
Do you know how they called it?
"Crisis of democracy" and of course, these excesses had to be controled somewhat.

Teonan, I wish that you could visit as many countries as you can. You might actually start to think that all people are humans.


*** edit by moderator  ***
I understand being passionate about your opinions, but that was uncalled for.  I removed it so this wouldn't turn into another flame fest.  Play nice.
**** end edit ***

It is because of close-minded people like you that there is a stagnation in society. Your egoism is too strong. 

Edited by Evolving (01/20/03 03:55 PM)

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1234634 - 01/20/03 04:02 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Basically what I am saying is there are no INNOCENT people in the world. Every human being is acting out of self interest. You are choosing to put it in MORAL parameters. Calling them innocent and us guilty. In my mind everyone is guilty of being HUMAN, and following the laws of nature.

I see your point. Most of the human race is indeed morally depraved. But at the same time, there ARE innocent people in this world: most children, for example, who are the ones who suffer most profoundly from war. And in the final analysis, saying that nobody is innocent is basically a full-scale cop out from any kind of moral responsibility whatsoever. I'm not going to be the one to tell you not to take that path in life because it is not my right to judge your morals, and also because I assume you're willing to face the eventual consequences of such a view of life. And believe me, there will be consequences.

What some here will consider overconsumption, I consider SUCCESS. America has the strongest Military in the world because we WORKED REAL HARD and chose to invest that way.

People work hard the world over. Some of the hardest working people I've ever seen I've were in very profoundly poor countries. National wealth depends on factors other than simply hard work.

So PUT your KNOWLEDGE where your mouth is. DEVELOPE THE T$ECHNOLOGIES WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE SUCCESFUL IN THE WORLD. But don't bitch about the power structure that has guarenteed your freedom for the past half century, because you are morally opposed to their methods.

Isn't bitching part and parcel of my freedom? And if I don't exercise my freedom, what good is it? You seem to believe that imperialism and invasion is necessary for security. This is a deeply confused understanding of how things work. Try reading "Blowback" by Chalmers Johnson. Imperialism in the long run UNDERMINES security.

You might find it ironic, but I am an environmentalist. I just know that people tend t0 be excluded from the process in developing environmental laws. If you create laws that don't allow for the expansion of business, the economy will suffer, and PEOPLE will pay the price.

What does any of this have to do with invading a sovereign nation on the flimsiest of pretexts? Come on, try to focus.

Right now the world is overpopulated. Resources ARE limited. We need to work towards developing sustainable business, and lifestyles. The OBJECT is to do so without limiting freedom. Something that SEEMS to always get attacked first by the majority of the BLEEDING hearts that post here. I actually agree with alot of what liberals think, I just STRONGLY disagree with their methods. Equally I disagree with alot of the Conservative Methods. Any method that limits freedom, is the wrong method.

So limiting others' freedom to murder their fellow human beings is "the wrong method"? Limiting the freedom of large companies to use coercive methods to put competitors out of business is wrong? Everybody agrees that freedom is good in principle. The problem in a free society is defining exactly where "legitimate" freedom, that is to say, freedom that doesn't impinge on the freedom of others, begins and ends. This is clearly open to debate, and different cultures and historical eras will come to different decisions about that.

Everybody who knows the Shroomery has tremendous respect for your encyclopedic knowledge of cultivation and related matters, but your political posts are incoherent rants. One day you're defending the Patriot Act and TIPs and everything the Bush administraiton is doing, and now you're saying that anything that limits freedom is wrong and that you're against the Patriot Act. You say that morality doesn't pay the rent and put food on the table, then you say that freedom is the highest good (which is itself a moral valuation).

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1234651 - 01/20/03 04:09 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Remember the segment of the population that is willing to ROB, and Violate, and MURDER to obtain what they want instead of working for it.


Aren't we doing that if we go into Iraq to fight a war to get oil?



--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1234780 - 01/20/03 05:08 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I don't drink.

I didn't say anyone was morally depraved. I just said no one is innocent of Self interest. Children are some of the most self important creatures on the planet.

Your right it depends on RESOURCES and UTILIZING THEM.

Bitching is part of freedom. So is coming up with solutions to problems.

Really had nothing to do with the topic at large. Someone said I couldn't be an environmentalist and be against environmental laws at the same time. They are wrong. I am extremely focused and very consistent in my beliefs. Unlike people who want personal freedom to do THEIR thing, and would stop others from doing their own thing.

I define freedom as it is written in the laws of the USA, that is where I live. I also hold every citizen in the USA accountable to those laws. I don't believe people living outside of the USA should be protected by these same LAWS, THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE BY OTHER LAWS.

When The GULF WAR went down, SAADAM fired skuds at ISRAEL. Israel was not participating in the GULF war. Is ISRAEL justified in DESTROYING IRAQ?

American LAW is judged by AMERICAN citizens , not foreighn citizens. We are bound by a constitution that protects the individual from the kind of Problems you are worrying about. The individuals of this society are FREE up to the point where their behaviors VIOLATE others FREEDOMS. THESE FREEDOMS DO NOT STRETCH TO OTHER COUNTRIES for the reasons stated. They are different cultures, with their own rules.

I agree that it is difficult to balance Societal needs with Individual needs. But I choose more freedom to less freedom for AMERICANS.

EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR IT"S OWN CITIZENS.

Don't confuse a lack of absolute fear over the patriot act, for condoning it. I don't think Spying on US citizens is a solution to anything.

I don't like Bush as much as you think. I don't like the MORAL agenda of either the DEMS or the REPUBLicans. I respect everybody I come in contact with everyday.

In all the time since this IRAQ shit has been stirring for the past two decades, NO ONE has offered any alternative solution to The middle eastern policy. PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK SHOULD BE DONE, instead of saying WHAT YOU THINK shouldn't be done. OBVIOUSLY something has to be done!!!!

Oil makes the INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD WORK. IT ALSO FEEDS the OIL PRODUCING NATIONS.

It seems the biggest complaint against my Viewpoint is that I don't think people outside the USA are entitled to the Freedoms of those living in the USA. I believe that those living outside of the USA should be living up to their own LAWS and CODES.
I BELIEVE it is of ABSOLUTE importance for My country to maintain a secure OIL source at all costs, because our entire ECONOMY is dependent on it. Call me a SAVAGE, call me whatever, but NO-ONE has stepped up to the plate to offer up any ALTERNATIVES.

I find it weird that you do not UNDERSTAND the importance of securing Middle eastern oil supplies, to the SUSTAINABILITY of the economy of the entire industrialized world.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1234798 - 01/20/03 05:18 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Money pays for the goods that keep you alive. I don't worship money. Actually I am quit poor for American standards. But I feel rich, because I get to choose the life I live.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1234933 - 01/20/03 06:10 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

:tongue:

Selling souls for money!!!  :crazy:

I am poor.  I don't live like a fat pig.  Have no desire to. 

I am poor and I don't hate RICH people.  I guess that is why I like America.

Overconsumption made the industrialized world SUCCESFUL.  How can you deny that.

I know we are not 100 000 people. That is why I value OIL as much as I do.

Thought control. mmmkay.  Somehow only certain people are able to escape it right. 
You ofcourse being one of them.

If your family regrets coming to N. America WHY don't they go back?

Critical thinking?  Oh yes no one in America is capable of that!!!  Only everyother nation in the world. 

I would really like to know what you said that was edited.  I'm sure it was IMPORTANT.
 

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1234944 - 01/20/03 06:16 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

No we have been and will continue to buy oil from the OIL rich nations. We are going to war to make sure that we can continue to buy it. We are not there to steal it.

Iraq on the other hand TRIED to ROB and Murder their neighbors for theirs, they didn't offer to buy it first. Don't blame the US for partitioning Kuwait from Iraq, Blame the French.

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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1235083 - 01/20/03 07:37 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I see your point and admire your honesty. It's a scary world when American citizens have to die to secure a market for oil, but you are correct that they're are no other alternatives available at this time. I only question how much of that belief is true. I wonder if the oil industry is supressing any attempts at making advances in fuel technology available to the public? Oh well........we're all gonna die one day.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04

Edited by Skikid16 (01/20/03 09:24 PM)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1235152 - 01/20/03 08:50 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

"In my mind everyone is guilty of being HUMAN, and following the laws of nature."

Did mummy tell you that you were a bad bad boy?

Laws of nature are subject to change. Greed and overconsumption have served their purpose, they will be phased out or we will by mother nature.

"To consider me less human because I see the world for what it really is"

You dont see the world how it really is you see it through your eyes and perceptions and like to think you are right and that is how it is. :grin: Elementary mistake for a shroomer to make! :grin:

"I think the Iraqi people will be better off with Saadam removed. With the world attention focused on Iraq presently, the NEW leader of Iraq will be a product of IRAQ, but will definetly be more freindly to the OIL consuming world."

No the new leader of Iraq will be a product of US oil intersets just like the new leader of Afghanistan.

"So PUT your KNOWLEDGE where your mouth is. DEVELOPE THE T$ECHNOLOGIES WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO BE SUCCESFUL IN THE WORLD. But don't bitch about the power structure that has guarenteed your freedom for the past half century, because you are morally opposed to their methods."

I dont remember asking for freedom at the expense of others.

"Right now the world is overpopulated. Resources ARE limited."

Resources are limited but with the resources we currently have everyone on the planet could live a happy, healthy life with a level of material comfort similar to that we in the west enjoy. Obviously we cant be as, to use your phrase, "Successful" as we are now. But if success equates to running round like a headless chicken buying whatever im told to whilst having my mind filled with a distorted and basically incorrect image of the world then you can keep your "success"   


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1235156 - 01/20/03 08:57 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

"At the time Saadam was HELPED into power, there were bigger threats to oil security. The powers that be recognized this and assited him in his WARS. Now that he has become a LOOSE CANNON, proven by him rolling into Kuwait. The powers that be, will do everything in their power to GET RID OF HIM."

Yeah a loose cannon who was told by your lying Ambassador Gillespie that the US were not interested in arab-arab wars. Sadaam would not have rolled into Kuwait if the US had stepped in with threats before he had launched his attack. And dont forget the Kuwaitis had been slant drilling Iraqi oil fields as well as artificially messing with the price of oil to the detriment of Iraq. Now why would a little state like Kuwait be getting in Iraq's face unless they new that somebody had their back covered.

The US have played Sadaam like a fiddle. Now I hear Rumsfeld has been saying that Sadaam may be able to be relocated to an african country to live in exile and probabaly avoid any charges of war crimes. They must be really worried about him if they are even considering such a course.

You may think its human nature which makes it acceptable, if so all i can say is i'd hate to do business with you.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1235161 - 01/20/03 09:11 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember the segment of the population that is willing to ROB, and Violate, and MURDER to obtain what they want instead of working for it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aren't we doing that if we go into Iraq to fight a war to get oil?

Excellent point, well made Skikid!


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1235163 - 01/20/03 09:13 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Oh for gods sake, So its not alright to murder and steal but it ok to murder and "make sure we can maintain a supply of oil"

Its the Iraqi's fucking oil. The US are a murdering bunch of thieves - get over it.


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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1236716 - 01/21/03 11:20 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Good post.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1236800 - 01/21/03 11:55 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I am not the one with a problem. You are. I haven't been complaining, you have.

So you get over it, or do something about it.

I do business with people all day long. The majority of which UNDERSTAND that if they want to be able to do the things they LIKE to do, buy the things they WANT to buy, and be protected from those who would decide what is GOOD for them, LIKE YOU and your notion of sustainability and comfort.

I assure you the WORLD population cannot live in equality. IT is IMPOSSIBLE. Show me a single Nation in the entire world that doesn't have Classes, and everyone is content to live that way.

I refuse to sacrifice my freedom and lifestyle. The only time I am willing to make concessions is in a time of NECCESSITY. Like world war 2, and modifying lifestyle to be able to USE the LIMITED RESOURCES we had, to WIN the war.

In your mind you probably beilieve that the EARTH can support the expanding population on the available resources, IT CAN"T, unless you force EVERYONE to live in poverty with no freedom. Ofcourse their will always be a corrupt segment of this WORLD government that doesn't apply the pressure on themselves.


You blame America for everything.

You even blame America for Iraq rolling into Kuwait. Iraq went in because America said it was ok. This country does this because we said it was ok. They don't do that becasue we said it wasn't ok.

Iraq doesn't have to sell anyone oil. America is not saying you have to sell us oil. Americaq and the rest of the world told Iraq you can't start absorbing other countries oil. That is what the Gulf war was about. Securing ALL the OIL in the Middle East, not just Kuwaits. We are securing ACCESS to OIL from Nations that want to sell it to us, because they realize it is their SINGLE most important commodity. If the Nations you are trying to protect from the Evil USA, adopted your Social equality system, then the money they could have earned during the industrial revolution would have built those nations up. Of course you will blame the USA for the actions of ARAB blood against ARAB blood.

You hold the USA to one standard and Hold the rest of the world to another. Because the USA has the POWER, you just assume they have been abusing it. If we abused our power we could have OWNED the WORLD now. Not pieces of it, but the entire WORLD.

All America wan'ts is the freedom to Trade for Resources so it can maintain it's lifestyle. Even if that means total consumption of the worlds resources. America is not the only one consuming, or OVERCONSUMING. WE are not the only ones polluting. We are not the only ones killing in WAR. EVERY NATION is guilty of turning their backs on other nations, and even citizens within their own borders.

You want me to ignore all of HISTORY, and take YET another chance on the GOODNESS of humanity. To relinquish my wealth and lifestyle, that we fought and worked for, so that others who are less succesful due to history. Do this in the name of Humanity.

I would equate that to not having children and commiting suicide. My suggestion is to practice what you preach, because I am practicing what I preach. Maybe someday, America will crash and burn, and the world can go back to blaming eachother, instead of putting all the blame on US.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1236821 - 01/21/03 12:08 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Saadam has been ignoring US threats for over a decade now. AT the EXPENSE of his ARAB citizens. He will not be able to ignore them any longer.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1236843 - 01/21/03 12:17 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If we abused our power we could have OWNED the WORLD now. Not pieces of it, but the entire WORLD.




Please tell me that sentence was a joke.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1236844 - 01/21/03 12:17 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

The USA isn't worried about Saadam without weapons and power. They are worried about him with them. They are worried about losing access to OIL. They are also equally worried about his weapons winding up in the hands of the people he was originally given them to to fight.

Humans are not as removed from nature as you imagine them to be.


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Invisibleshroomophile
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1236856 - 01/21/03 12:21 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Now there you go with the name calling.The British has caused as much misery in the world as any country.Now your country is so weak it can't defend itself.As long as us murdering theives are bolstering your pitiful nation,you should keep a civil tone.
Oh man that sounded much better than my first thought"eat shit you Limey mutha fucka."


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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1236864 - 01/21/03 12:24 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

The United States was the first nation to develope Nuclear Weapons. Instead of taking that opportunity to OWN everything there is. We CHOSE to help rebuild EVERYTHING that was lost in the WAR.

Don't be stupid . The BOMB gave the US power that was UNHEARD OF IN HISTORY.

I'm sorry if reality seems like a joke to you.

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1237158 - 01/21/03 01:57 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I'm sorry if reality seems like a joke to you.




Reality doesn't seem like a joke to me, just your thought process.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1237928 - 01/21/03 05:58 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

The United States was the first nation to develope Nuclear Weapons. Instead of taking that opportunity to OWN

Own what? Are you going to sail 3000 miles and invade every country on earth and be at war with the rest of the world for the next 1000 years? What good is that going to do you? Much simpler to just keep installing and funding maniacs like Saddam.

The BOMB gave the US power that was UNHEARD OF IN HISTORY

Not really. You can't even take out a guy on a dialysis machine in a cave in Afghanistan.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1237974 - 01/21/03 06:20 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Alex, you are the master of the non sequitur.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1238361 - 01/22/03 02:07 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I was going to write a point by point reply to this but I just cant be bothered. You will come back with your couter points and nothing will change.

You are greedy, You are selfish, You are a dying breed - thats enough for me.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1238364 - 01/22/03 02:08 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Humans are not as removed from nature as you imagine them to be.




humans are nature you fuckwit.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: shroomophile]
    #1238370 - 01/22/03 02:10 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I hate Englands role in it all just as much if that helps - now go and wave your silly little flag in somebody elses face before i burn it for ya.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1238383 - 01/22/03 02:19 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

do you practice being a dick or is it natural?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (01/22/03 02:28 AM)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1238392 - 01/22/03 02:24 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Now thats funny and soooo original too!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1238401 - 01/22/03 02:28 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

well?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1238421 - 01/22/03 02:38 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

The thing I love most about talking with you Inny is that so often the level of the conversation whisks me off in a cloud of nostalgia to those heady days spent in the school playground when i was about 4.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1238441 - 01/22/03 02:53 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

you went to school?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1238508 - 01/22/03 03:25 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

you went to school?

Don't kids go to school where you're from inny?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1238607 - 01/22/03 04:28 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

yet again the British humor is non-existent...

Do kids here go to school? Apparently not. Sounds like the same goes for Britain.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1238726 - 01/22/03 05:21 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

yet again the British humor is non-existent...

If only we all liked carrot-top eh?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1238907 - 01/22/03 06:40 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

yeah carrot top.....sheesh it's getting worse. Haven't you brits learned anything from monty python?


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1238983 - 01/22/03 07:08 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The United States was the first nation to develope Nuclear Weapons. Instead of taking that opportunity to OWN everything there is. We CHOSE to help rebuild EVERYTHING that was lost in the WAR.

Don't be stupid . The BOMB gave the US power that was UNHEARD OF IN HISTORY.

I'm sorry if reality seems like a joke to you.




The US first had the bomb in 1945. The Soviet Union had it in 1949. The US therefore did have a head start in the arms race, but by 1949 they didn't have anywhere near the number of atom bombs necessary to conquer and subjugate the whole world. Once the arms race was in full swing and England, France and China got their own nuclear weapons, for the US to conquer the whole world became an absolute impossibility.

At this point, actual physical domination of the world is an impossibility for anyone. If the US even tried, stuff like 9/11 would become an everyday occurence. The violence and non-stop instability would immediately negate any potential economic benefits of controlling of those resources.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1239026 - 01/22/03 07:29 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

All America wan'ts is the freedom to Trade for Resources so it can maintain it's lifestyle. Even if that means total consumption of the worlds resources. America is not the only one consuming, or OVERCONSUMING. WE are not the only ones polluting. We are not the only ones killing in WAR. EVERY NATION is guilty of turning their backs on other nations, and even citizens within their own borders.

Even if that means total consumption of the world's resources? Do you know how to spell that? Here: E-X-T-I-N-C-T-I-O-N. So basically it's worth destroying the human race so that people in the industrialized world can have their "lifestyle." When it starts nearing that point, my friend, the number of "terrorists" will come to be larger than the number of "non-terrorists" and there will be no stopping them. That beloved "lifestyle" will go up in flames.

You want me to ignore all of HISTORY, and take YET another chance on the GOODNESS of humanity. To relinquish my wealth and lifestyle, that we fought and worked for, so that others who are less succesful due to history. Do this in the name of Humanity.

Nobody is asking you to trust in the goodness of humanity. All they are asking for is for the United States to not embrace evil itself. To not go starting wars of aggression and conquest. Look closesly at history. Germany was the most scientifically and technologically advanced nation in the world at the beginning of World War II. It too launched a war of conquest and at the end of it was left a heap of ashes. The rest of the world can accept US dominance and power as long as US foreign policy maintains certain minimum standards of morality. During World War II the US fought tyranny and oppression and the world was grateful. If the US becomes the tyrant and the oppressor, however, the world WILL fight back, and if they do, the results will not be pretty for anybody. If 19 Arab guys with just a few hundred thousand dollars in financing were able to pull off 9/11, AN ENTIRE WORLD OF ENEMIES could destroy the United States, nuclear arsenal or no nuclear arsenal. If the whole world wanted to do it and worked together to do it, they could. People who have a firmer grasp of reality than you do understand that, and understand the need for international cooperation and diplomacy. Unfortunately, the Bush administration's agenda has been taken over by people who only understand the language of force and who have little respect for law, morality, or human life. I'm confident that, in the final analysis, most Americans will turn away from the insane course that these men are laying out. Most Americans did not vote for Bush when he was an unknown quantity, and after four years of terror, warmongering, environmental irresponsibility, dismantling of civil liberties, and economic incompetence, the American people will have had enough.

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1239065 - 01/22/03 07:44 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

and after four years of terror, warmongering, environmental irresponsibility, dismantling of civil liberties, and economic incompetence, the American people will have had enough.

I hope you are right. I really do.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1239195 - 01/22/03 08:27 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Haven't you brits learned anything from monty python? 




I get the feeling that you are more David Brent than Monty Python Inny :smirk: 


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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1240666 - 01/22/03 04:48 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Look man. So you agree it's about oil, yet say that's alright.

Bottom line - It's illegal. More illegal than what Iraq has supposedly done.

Does that mean anything to you?

Or should we just go around doing whatever we want to secure our resources and rewriting international law as we go along?

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1241354 - 01/22/03 09:55 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I get the feeling if Teonan had been born in Nazi Germany he would have found ways to justify their behaviour too.

Nationalism sucks.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1241395 - 01/22/03 10:56 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

****more David Brent than Monty Python Inny ****

i'm begging you to please stop, the unfunnyness is killing me...


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1241437 - 01/23/03 12:13 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Do you know who David Brent is inny?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1241446 - 01/23/03 12:22 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

An obscure TV personality in the UK...11 O'clock Show ?

hint: if you want to make a joke make sure that people actually know or care what you're talking about. That's what makes it funny. (like your lie like a broken watch.....weak) I'm all for comedy but at least make a small effort to be funny.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1241501 - 01/23/03 01:29 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry Inny that joke was not supposed to make you laugh as I knew you wouldnt get it anyway and no David Brent is not an obscure character from the 11 o'clock show.

How is it you always manage to drag conversations down to the trivial? I think you should be banished to OTD forever or at least until medical science can implant another brain cell in your head to keep the other one company :grin: 


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1241519 - 01/23/03 01:48 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

David Brent link

Who is this then? You see a joke has to actually be something others get. I'm all for comedy directed at me or others but come on.....

***How is it you always manage to drag conversations down to the trivial? ****

wow is that the pot calling the kettle black....look up a few posts and get back to me when you understand.

****I think you should be banished to OTD forever or at least until medical science can implant another brain cell in your head to keep the other one company ****

in the mean time try to work on your comedic skills....at least a good knock knock joke.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Innvertigo (01/23/03 01:49 AM)

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1241594 - 01/23/03 02:35 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Im bored of winding you up now Inny its like taking candy from a baby. Thanks for biting though sucker!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1241614 - 01/23/03 02:44 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

yeah....keep telling yourself that.... :smirk:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1241701 - 01/23/03 03:29 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'm all for comedy

That's a little rich coming from you dear inny, you're usually about as funny as watching orphans burn.


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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1241879 - 01/23/03 04:53 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

you two are killing me, you guys should go on tour: "Gazz and Alex" the bland and blander tour.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1241904 - 01/23/03 05:00 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Ah the smell of greasepaint, treading the boards! What do you say Alex? As Inny is so damn funny he can write the material!


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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1241961 - 01/23/03 05:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

you guys are killing me, seriously my ribs are actually hurting..

1. i never said i was funny, just that you're so unfunny
2. i don't like bland british humor except monty


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242415 - 01/23/03 08:12 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

you're usually about as funny as watching orphans burn.


Is it bad that I laughed at that?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1242667 - 01/23/03 10:20 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

it's not bad because it is truley funny.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1242671 - 01/23/03 10:21 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

If I were born in NAZI GERMANY I would be DEAD. THAT IS MY POINT.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1242700 - 01/23/03 10:33 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Well Bro, from what you have said i dont realy see how this is your point. maybe you can expand for me?


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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1242832 - 01/23/03 11:16 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'm bored with this discussion. If you don't like what Bush is doing, don't vote for him in the next election. You better make sure that ENOUGH PEOPLE AGREE WITH YOU. Not a slight majority of the popular vote, but enough votes in EVER STATE to win according to the LAWS of the LAND.

I think you might be surprised with the outcome of the next election. Either way, I will support the outcome of the election. No matter which side gains control of the country, I support AMERICA. Not on some Fascist EGO TRIP. But because I feel the freedoms I am granted in AMERICA are of ABSOLUTE IMPORTANCE to me. I personally don't think being ALIVE is enough, I think the quality of life is equally important.




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Anonymous

Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1242870 - 01/23/03 11:28 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I was born a jew. Under NAZI RULE, I would be dead. Under AMERICAN rule, I am free to worship what I want, Work where I want, Do pretty much whatever I want, as long as I don't fuck with my FELLOW citizens. It is WHAT I have embrassed as freedom.

I understand that this FREEDOM comes with a price. I price that I am willing to pay, and you are not. You would chose to give up freedom for peace. I am not willing to do so. You may argue that oil is not neccessary for freedom, I KNOW that at this point in time it is.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 14 days
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: ]
    #1244313 - 01/23/03 08:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry bud, but Id rather have a lower standard of living than bomb and kill innocents, not to mention causing wide spread poverty so a minority can live like they want.

Thats where me and you differ. And before you start on about human nature remember I am human too.


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/15/02
Posts: 14,463
Loc: International waters
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1244458 - 01/23/03 09:49 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

so what freedom has america given you

personal freedom???
then again there that drug war.......
the right to decide how your counrty is run???
well nix that to to much corporate funding
ummm.....the right to buy and be a consumer and not a citizen??
thats the one
www.corpwatch.org
dont bitch at me and call me wrong BEFORE
you read this WHOLE site otherwise what can you say???


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 months, 14 days
Re: US foreign policy. [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1244548 - 01/23/03 11:29 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

What did i say??


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Always Smi2le

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