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lovecheese
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: Heffy]
#13163480 - 09/08/10 02:16 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Heffy said: What information have you provided me that I am ignoring?
I'm not going to buy and read a whole book, on a subject that I'm pretty much completely convinced is trash, just to prove you wrong and refute the ideas in it.
Have you given me any information that suggests a raw food diet is more healthy than a balanced, all inclusive diet?
Most raw foodies have a piss poor understanding of nutrition. Especially the interaction of enzymes seems to baffle them. I constantly hear raw foodies saying the most absurd things about enzymes.
I am currently pursuing a career in brewing chemistry, so enzymes, carbohydrates, proteins, amino acids, etc, are things I am studying in some depth. Most of the things I hear raw foodies saying about nutrition demonstrate a complete lack of understanding.
Prove me wrong.
Care to explain? What are these certain raw foodies saying about nutrition?
Also: I wasn't saying you're ignoring any information i had given you i just found what you said to be ignorant. "Raw food diets are total BS. I'm not going to read a stupid book espousing raw food diets when I know enough about them already to know that they offer no real health benefits over a well balanced diet that includes cooked foods.
Most of the outrageous claims made by the raw foodist(who clearly know nothing about proteins, enzymes, and carbohydrates) have been thoroughly debunked." You attacked a movement because you said you already know enough about them, but what is it that you know that is causing you to attack the lifestyle?
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13163840 - 09/08/10 06:56 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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those tropical fruits
http://ezinearticles.com/?The-History-And-Evolution-Of-Banana-Hybrids&id=344037
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080316064815AAsL2nA
everything we eat we have tampered with to make it more appealing, to increase the sugar content, mankind didnt go from eating mostly meat as neanderthal to reverting back to eating plants just because we became 'human'
there's nothing that suggests that early man was anything more than the hunter/gatherer he's been for 4 million years, as our brains increased in size so did our tool making abilities, those tools allows us to more efficiently kill and process animals, you dont need a bigger brain to track down and kill a fruit
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: Prisoner#1]
#13164264 - 09/08/10 09:33 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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So the sweet variety of bananas is the result of a more recent genetic mutation. Are you saying this is the case for all tropical fruits? Also what's with the articles claim that American's eat 25 pounds of fruit each day? It makes me question the whole credibility of the article.
everything we eat we have tampered with to make it more appealing, to increase the sugar content
For the most part. We tamper with our meats too. Still, a banana with more sugar does not take away the fact it is a banana, it is just a more useful banana. Just like a cow given hormones to produce more milk. You simply need to eat less of the fruit for the same nutritional value.
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lovecheese
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13165043 - 09/08/10 01:08 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: So the sweet variety of bananas is the result of a more recent genetic mutation. Are you saying this is the case for all tropical fruits? Also what's with the articles claim that American's eat 25 pounds of fruit each day? It makes me question the whole credibility of the article.
everything we eat we have tampered with to make it more appealing, to increase the sugar content
For the most part. We tamper with our meats too. Still, a banana with more sugar does not take away the fact it is a banana, it is just a more useful banana. Just like a cow given hormones to produce more milk. You simply need to eat less of the fruit for the same nutritional value.
the point he's trying to make is that most fruit we know of today came from an inedible plant of long ago and was only edible till recently. therefore we have never been exposed to this much sugar. and it's known that fruitarian diets such as the 80/10/10, while good for temporary cleansing, can cause a lot of digestive, and hormonal problems in the long run.
30bananasaday is basically a fruitarian community site that preaches by the 80/10/10 diet and their forums are flooded with people having problems, but everyone insists that the symptoms they are having is from the detoxing effect of such a high fruit diet.
yes, we tamper with our meats as well. thats why a lot of raw foodists are starting to see the light with not just raw foods, but the benefits of WILD food as well (fish, wild animals, free range domesticated animals, raw living spring water with high microscopic algae content).
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: lovecheese]
#13165451 - 09/08/10 02:29 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the claim that all sugary tropical fruits have only came about recently is simply not true. Please provide evidence for this other than one YouTube video.
while good for temporary cleansing, can cause a lot of digestive, and hormonal problems in the long run
Once again, do you have any proof of this? I've been eating a minimum of 2000 calories of fruit per day (or at least 5 days a week) for the past two months and I feel the best I ever did in my life. It is true that you go through a temporary period where you body cleanses out all of the toxins and whatever else that has accumulated from eating cooked foods for years, but this went away for myself and my brother after the first week.
yes, we tamper with our meats as well. thats why a lot of raw foodists are starting to see the light with not just raw foods, but the benefits of WILD food as well (fish, wild animals, free range domesticated animals, raw living spring water with high microscopic algae content).
I agree a lot of raw foodists are way off the mark on what eating healthy is all about. Some of them actually take in a higher percentage of fat than people eating cooked foods. Dr. Graham discusses this in his book. Wild food is all great and dandy, but don't kid yourself by thinking that more than a mere fraction of consumed meats is free range. Part of the reason I eat less meat is a moral issue.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13166966 - 09/08/10 06:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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c0sm0nautt said: I've been eating a minimum of 2000 calories of fruit per day (or at least 5 days a week) for the past two months and I feel the best I ever did in my life.
let us know at the 6mos and 1yr mark
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13166981 - 09/08/10 06:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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c0sm0nautt said: Also what's with the articles claim that American's eat 25 pounds of fruit each day?
it's all you raw food/fruit people, you have to eat 80x as much to stay healthy
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: Prisoner#1]
#13167185 - 09/08/10 07:09 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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I know a handful of people who have been doing it successfully for over a year. They don't have "hormonal problems" and are actually the healthiest people I know.
So this article makes the claim that on average Americans eat 25 pounds of fruit each day. Your saying raw fooders are throwing off the numbers... How much do you think they are eating then - 100 pounds of fruit a day? Don't you see anything wrong with these numbers?
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13167194 - 09/08/10 07:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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btw these grapes are delicious
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13167302 - 09/08/10 07:31 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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c0sm0nautt said: So this article makes the claim that on average Americans eat 25 pounds of fruit each day.
I have no clue where they come up with that number, probably supposed to say 25lbs/yr
I ate almost exclusively meat for nearly 20 years, I didnt start having problems until several months after I started eating plant materials as a 'filler', I also put on weight when my diet changed, oddly, when I started eating mostly meat, I lost weight, stayed fit and never felt healthier
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: Prisoner#1]
#13168273 - 09/08/10 10:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Perhaps different things work for different people. What type and how much meat do you eat with an almost-exclusively meat diet? What type of vegetation were you eating and what types of problems occurred?
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daussaulit
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13168536 - 09/09/10 12:07 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:while good for temporary cleansing, can cause a lot of digestive, and hormonal problems in the long run
Once again, do you have any proof of this? I've been eating a minimum of 2000 calories of fruit per day (or at least 5 days a week) for the past two months and I feel the best I ever did in my life. It is true that you go through a temporary period where you body cleanses out all of the toxins and whatever else that has accumulated from eating cooked foods for years, but this went away for myself and my brother after the first week.
There are so few studies on this(but even fewer, if any at all that have been published in reputable medical journals showing the long term benefits of a raw food diet), but this one is commonly cited. Consequences of a Long-Term Raw Food Diet on Body Weight and Menstruation I should see if I can get the full article from my university library database, but just reading the abstract: Over five hundred people were tracked for an average of 3.7 years. Many were malnourished, underweight, and suffered from chronic energy deficiency(although not mentioned in the abstract, that result has been cited by many doctors in numerous publications, again, you can find one example where I had referenced this in a previous post).
The author is a research scientist, Dr. Corinna Koebnick. She's published works while working with the Institute of Nutritional Science at the University of Giessen, German Institute of Human Nutrition Potsdam-Rehbrücke, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology at University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Department of Preventive Medicine - Keck School of Medicine at University of Southern California, Department of Health and Human Services - Division of Cancer Epidemiology and Genetics at the National Institutes Health, and Department of Research and Evaluation - Kaiser Permanente Southern California just to name a few.
Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:By first human, I meant strictly homo sapien. I understand its estimated they came about only about 1 million years ago? So in the past 1 million years the physiological changes haven't been too profound. And humans didn't start farming in the agricultural sense until about a small fraction of that time.
Agriculture is unrelated to cooking. Evidence of cooking dates back over 2 million years. Humans have evolved to eat cooked foods as part of their diet. Sharp teeth and a mouth full of vegetation grinding molars have disappeared. Much like northern Europeans have evolved to consume dairy products. The history of consuming milk from other animals spans over 8,000 years, and since that time, certain part of the human population have evolved to maintain lactase production throughout their entire lives, and even today, that trait is expanding generation after generation. If humans aren't suppose to eat dairy products, then why have they evolved the ability to process dairy products?
Food as we know it has radically changed within the last few hundred years. No doubt a few thousand years from now humans will have evolved to thrive on the food we have today.
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lovecheese
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13168667 - 09/09/10 01:04 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said: I think the claim that all sugary tropical fruits have only came about recently is simply not true. Please provide evidence for this other than one YouTube video.
while good for temporary cleansing, can cause a lot of digestive, and hormonal problems in the long run
Once again, do you have any proof of this? I've been eating a minimum of 2000 calories of fruit per day (or at least 5 days a week) for the past two months and I feel the best I ever did in my life. It is true that you go through a temporary period where you body cleanses out all of the toxins and whatever else that has accumulated from eating cooked foods for years, but this went away for myself and my brother after the first week.
yes, we tamper with our meats as well. thats why a lot of raw foodists are starting to see the light with not just raw foods, but the benefits of WILD food as well (fish, wild animals, free range domesticated animals, raw living spring water with high microscopic algae content).
I agree a lot of raw foodists are way off the mark on what eating healthy is all about. Some of them actually take in a higher percentage of fat than people eating cooked foods. Dr. Graham discusses this in his book. Wild food is all great and dandy, but don't kid yourself by thinking that more than a mere fraction of consumed meats is free range. Part of the reason I eat less meat is a moral issue.
are you eating strictly fruit? or just getting most of your calories from fruit? big difference between the two that can cause problems.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13169007 - 09/09/10 05:47 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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c0sm0nautt said: Perhaps different things work for different people. What type and how much meat do you eat with an almost-exclusively meat diet? What type of vegetation were you eating and what types of problems occurred?
probably 70% beef, 20% pork, 5% wild game and a little chicken, the fruits and veggies include everything available locally
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Seuss
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13169020 - 09/09/10 06:07 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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> I know a handful of people who have been doing it successfully for over a year. They don't have "hormonal problems" and are actually the healthiest people I know.
Speaking from experience, it is very difficult to eat healthy on a raw diet. It can certainly be done, but you really have to study nutrition and know what the various foods you eat provide, or more importantly, lack. When done properly, a raw (or vegan) diet can be very healthy. Unfortunately, the majority of people that go down this road believe it to be a free ride to better health and end up malnourished leading to health problems that do not show up until years later after the damage has already been done.
> I think the claim that all sugary tropical fruits have only came about recently is simply not true.
I don't have my nutritional references handy, but the claim is mostly correct. High fructose (monosaccharide) diets (>10% fructose) are only a few hundred years old, if that. They are also pretty hard on the body as humans have not adapted to efficiently digest large amounts of monosaccharides. Small amounts are not bad and can even aid in the digestion of glucose. Large amounts overwhelm the liver and end up elevating triglycerides levels. High levels of triglycerides lead to heart disease, obesity (as the "I'm full" signals are suppressed), and insulin resistance leading to type-2 diabetes (this last one is not proven and still being researched, but looking to be more likely in the latest studies).
Some fruit is good. Too much fruit is bad. Food with a lot of fructose (such as high fructose corn syrup) is really bad. As always, everything in moderation.
> So this article makes the claim that on average Americans eat 25 pounds of fruit each day.
Perhaps they meant the sugar (fructose) content of 25 pounds of fruit each day? With the amount of high fructose corn syrup in food, I can see this as being true. Donno, poor wording, regardless.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: Seuss]
#13169169 - 09/09/10 07:43 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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chairlock3d said: are you eating strictly fruit? or just getting most of your calories from fruit? big difference between the two that can cause problems.
About 2000-2500 of my 3500-4000 daily calories come from fruit.
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Prisoner#1 said:
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c0sm0nautt said: Perhaps different things work for different people. What type and how much meat do you eat with an almost-exclusively meat diet? What type of vegetation were you eating and what types of problems occurred?
probably 70% beef, 20% pork, 5% wild game and a little chicken, the fruits and veggies include everything available locally
And about the 2000 calorie a day average?
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Seuss said: Speaking from experience, it is very difficult to eat healthy on a raw diet. It can certainly be done, but you really have to study nutrition and know what the various foods you eat provide, or more importantly, lack. When done properly, a raw (or vegan) diet can be very healthy. Unfortunately, the majority of people that go down this road believe it to be a free ride to better health and end up malnourished leading to health problems that do not show up until years later after the damage has already been done.
I completely agree and have stressed this point throughout this conversation. Raw foods such as coconut, avocado and nuts are so high in fat that they become the unhealthy "comfort food" of raw fooders. This is just one pitfall. The 80-10-10 book is so great because it essentially tears apart the average raw food diet and shows the superiority of a more frugavore-orientated diet.
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Seuss said: I don't have my nutritional references handy, but the claim is mostly correct. High fructose (monosaccharide) diets (>10% fructose) are only a few hundred years old, if that. They are also pretty hard on the body as humans have not adapted to efficiently digest large amounts of monosaccharides. Small amounts are not bad and can even aid in the digestion of glucose. Large amounts overwhelm the liver and end up elevating triglycerides levels. High levels of triglycerides lead to heart disease, obesity (as the "I'm full" signals are suppressed), and insulin resistance leading to type-2 diabetes (this last one is not proven and still being researched, but looking to be more likely in the latest studies).
I agree large doses of sugar is harmful to the body. However, fruit has special enzymes (or some type of chemicals) which allows its sugar content to be released over an extended period of time. Fruit - most fruits release their sugar relatively slowly into the bloodstream, this means that they are less likely to disrupt the blood sugar balance. However, the sugars in fruit juice are released more quickly as are the concentrated forms of fruit sugars such as those in dried fruits, so they do have the potential to impact blood sugar levels. This is why it is important to eat whole fruits, not simply fruit juice or other processed fruits.
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Seuss said: Some fruit is good. Too much fruit is bad. Food with a lot of fructose (such as high fructose corn syrup) is really bad. As always, everything in moderation.
Like I just said, it's a fallacy to equate high fructose corn syrup with the sugar found in fruit. HFCS is going to be absorbed into your body very quickly, while the latter will keep you sustained for many hours.
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Chespirito
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#13169182 - 09/09/10 07:48 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually fructose is in general not as good for you as glucose.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8989331 "Excess fruit juice consumption by preschool-aged children is associated with short stature and obesity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose#Health_effects
"Excess fructose consumption has been hypothesized to be a cause of insulin resistance, obesity,[37] elevated LDL cholesterol and triglycerides, leading to metabolic syndrome[38]. Fructose consumption has been shown to be correlated with obesity,[39][40] especially central obesity which is thought to be the most dangerous kind of obesity. A study in mice showed that a high fructose intake increases adiposity.[41]
Although all simple sugars have nearly identical chemical formulae, each has distinct chemical properties. This can be illustrated with pure fructose. A journal article reports that, "...fructose given alone increased the blood glucose almost as much as a similar amount of glucose (78% of the glucose-alone area)".[42][43][44][44][45]
One study concluded that fructose "produced significantly higher fasting plasma triacylglycerol values than did the glucose diet in men" and "...if plasma triacylglycerols are a risk factor for cardiovascular disease, then diets high in fructose may be undesirable".[46] Bantle et al. "noted the same effects in a study of 14 healthy volunteers who sequentially ate a high-fructose diet and one almost devoid of the sugar."[47]"
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Heffy
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: Chespirito]
#13169983 - 09/09/10 11:22 AM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Care to explain? What are these certain raw foodies saying about nutrition?
Probably in this thread already...but. Mostly I see raw food proponents claiming:
That all enzymes become inactive at the same temperature.
That the nutritional value of all foods is reduced through cooking.
Among other things.
A good example is Cosmonaut eating 2000 calories of fruit per day. I can say pretty confidently that this is an unhealthy practice. Fruits contain large amounts of sugars, and should not be used as the cornerstone of a diet for numerous reasons. Diabetes, extreme weight loss, and and pancreatic problems are all potential side effects of a diet that contains too much fruit.
As previously mentioned in the thread I have a friend who nearly killed himself pursuing various raw food diets. I would strongly recommend anyone on a raw fruit diet seriously reconsider their eating habits.
I've posted this before, but it's the most solid diet plan I have ever seen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Healthy_eating_pyramid.jpg
I doubt anyone can detail a raw food diet for me that is healthier than that.
-------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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Seuss
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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: Heffy]
#13171165 - 09/09/10 03:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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> I doubt anyone can detail a raw food diet for me that is healthier than that.
I'm not a big raw food fan, but I don't care for the "healthy eating pyramid" either. If you are consuming animal protein, such as outlined by the "healthy eating pyramid", then you need to add a temporal factor into your eating habits as well. Animal proteins digest slower than vegetable proteins. Casein, for example, takes a very long time to digest. Because the human body has a limited capacity for protein uptake, some food items, such as dairy, can lock out other food items, such as vegetables. Even then, most store bought animal products are very unhealthy; often high in nitrates, hormones, and antibiotics. I'm not militant about not eating animal products, but my personal preference is to only eat animal products that I have raised or hunted. Because I no longer live on a farm, other than occasional fresh fish, animal products are no longer a part of my diet.
While on the subject of nutrition two additional points. Be very careful with caffeine. It limits your ability to absorb several nutrients, including calcium. Try not to drink caffeine with or immediately after a meal. Give your body time to digest the nutrients first. Also, with the advent of sun screen and the lack of sunlight most of us get, the majority of people (in the US) are vitamin-D deficient. A lot of the research I have been reading is indicating that the recommended daily dosage of vitamin-D (400 IU over 2000 calories) is too low. Several studies have concluded that 1000 IU (over 2000 calories) of vitamin-D is a more appropriate daily dosage. If taking supplements, D3 is much easier for the body to absorb than D2. The daily UL (upper intake level) for vitamin-D in adults is 100000 IU, which can result in toxicity after a few months.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: I think that raw food diets are a bunch of garbage. [Re: Chespirito]
#13172978 - 09/09/10 10:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chespirito said: Actually fructose is in general not as good for you as glucose.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8989331 "Excess fruit juice consumption by preschool-aged children is associated with short stature and obesity."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose#Health_effects
"Excess fructose consumption has been hypothesized to be a cause of insulin resistance, obesity,[37] elevated LDL cholesterol and triglycerides, leading to metabolic syndrome[38]. Fructose consumption has been shown to be correlated with obesity,[39][40] especially central obesity which is thought to be the most dangerous kind of obesity. A study in mice showed that a high fructose intake increases adiposity.[41]
Although all simple sugars have nearly identical chemical formulae, each has distinct chemical properties. This can be illustrated with pure fructose. A journal article reports that, "...fructose given alone increased the blood glucose almost as much as a similar amount of glucose (78% of the glucose-alone area)".[42][43][44][44][45]
One study concluded that fructose "produced significantly higher fasting plasma triacylglycerol values than did the glucose diet in men" and "...if plasma triacylglycerols are a risk factor for cardiovascular disease, then diets high in fructose may be undesirable".[46] Bantle et al. "noted the same effects in a study of 14 healthy volunteers who sequentially ate a high-fructose diet and one almost devoid of the sugar."[47]"
These studies were not done with whole fruits. See my above posts for why whole fruits are different from their isolated sugars.
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