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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich.
    #1222836 - 01/16/03 06:32 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Has anyone heard of this or is it just local?

Bush opposes U-M affirmative action
President will tell the Supreme Court that he favors other ways to achieve racial diversity
By Jodi S. Cohen / The Detroit News
WASHINGTON -- President Bush rejected the University of Michigan's affirmative action admissions policies as "fundamentally flawed" and said he would oppose them in a Supreme Court brief filed today.
Bush's strong statement could be influential -- but not necessarily decisive -- in a politically sensitive case that may change college admissions nationwide.
While lauding student diversity on college campuses, he said U-M's undergraduate and law school admissions policies amount to a quota system that "unfairly rewards or penalizes prospective students based solely on their race."
"Quota systems that use race to include or exclude people from higher education and the opportunities it offers are divisive, unfair and impossible to square with the Constitution," Bush said in a six-minute speech from the White House's Roosevelt Room.
It's unclear how Bush's statement will affect him politically at a time when he is trying to increase minority participation in the Republican Party. Several Democrats, including presidential hopeful Rep. Dick Gephardt, ( innvertigo insertion: Hopeful? Ha ha) quickly pounced on Bush's position.
"Affirmative action is an essential tool in expanding educational opportunities to minorities," said Gephardt, a graduate of the University of Michigan Law School.
Michigan Sen. Debbie Stabenow and other members of Congress also issued statements supporting affirmative action and criticizing the president.
Bush left open the question of whether the Supreme Court should allow colleges to consider an applicant's race to any extent, but did suggest that there are other ways to achieve diversity. He cited a Texas plan that guarantees state-college admission to high school students who graduate in the top 10 percent of their high school class.
The court is to rule on the constitutionality of U-M's undergraduate and law school admissions policies. The undergraduate policy gives African-American, Hispanic and Native-American students 20 points on a 150-point scale; applicants who reach 110 points are likely to be admitted. The law school policy allows for the consideration of race when deciding whether to admit a student.
U-M officials rejected Bush's characterization of its school admissions policies as a quota, which the Supreme Court declared unconstitutional 25 years ago. U-M has denied using quotas, but opponents say the school's policies are essentially the equivalent of quotas.
"We do not have, and have never had, quotas or numerical targets in either the undergraduate or law school admissions programs," U-M President Mary Sue Coleman said. "Our goal is to choose among a pool of well-qualified applicants to enroll a student body that is diverse in a rich variety of ways."
Former U-M President Lee Bollinger, a defendant in the lawsuits and now president of Columbia University in New York, said Bush's statements were "a great mischaracterization and deeply unfair."
"It has been understood that you can consider race as a factor and that means necessarily that it can be an important factor, but it is certainly not the only factor," Bollinger said.
Lawyers at the Center for Individual Rights, the law firm representing the white plaintiffs rejected by U-M, said Bush's comments reflect the reasons they have fought to overturn affirmative action in Michigan and nationwide.
"I literally thought as I was listening to his speech that he must have been reading our Web page," spokesman Curt Levey said. "So many of the things he said are things we've been saying for the last five years, including that racial diversity is important. But you have to have it in a way that gives all people a fair chance."
Politically charged
The issue is a politically sensitive one for Bush, who has come out against affirmative action programs but doesn't want to alienate minority voters, especially the growing Hispanic population. Hispanic leaders have been lobbying the Bush administration to support affirmative action and U-M's policies, even meeting with White House counsel Alberto Gonzales earlier Wednesday.
"It will create some distance clearly between him and the leadership of the Latino community and in doing so will affect how Latinos perceive the White House," said Manuel Mirabal, chairman of the National Hispanic Leadership Agenda. "If you are supporting the advancement of Hispanic-Americans ... opposing it would not be something that would be positive for the president."
Theodore Shaw of the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, who is representing minority student intervenors in the undergraduate case, criticized Bush for saying he supports diversity, but opposes U-M's programs.
"There is going to be widespread concern, anger, sense of betrayal, consternation on the part of minority communities," Shaw said. "I don't know that his attempt to split the baby is going to work."
Affirmative action observers said it will still be important to assess the language in the administration's Supreme Court brief to see whether Bush lawyers will argue that race should not be considered at all or if U-M merely overemphasizes it as a factor.
The administration's brief is expected to leave to the Supreme Court the issue of whether race can ever be considered when picking a student class.
"As long as the brief doesn't argue that race can be an element in the admissions process, then we are in good shape," said Edward Blum of the conservative American Civil Rights Institute, which plans to file a brief opposing U-M's policies.
The cases began in 1997, when three white students argued that they were rejected by U-M in favor of less qualified minority applicants. A federal appeals court supported U-M's Law School policy in May, and the Supreme Court agreed to hear that case and the undergraduate case last fall.
Oral arguments are expected in late March or early April, with a decision by June or July.
The administration is not obligated to enter the debate, but the White House typically gets involved in major cases. Former Supreme Court clerks said Wednesday that the brief could be influential, especially to Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, generally thought to be the crucial vote in this case.
"One would be naive to think it is insignificant," said Bollinger, who clerked for the late Supreme Court Justice Warren Burger. "It raises the stakes and makes it harder when the -government takes a position."
Other legal experts said a middle-of-the-road brief could help the plaintiffs convince justices such as O'Connor.
"If the administration writes an especially persuasive brief charting a middle position ... that position might be influential to swing justices," said Robert Schapiro, an Emory University law school professor and clerk to Justice Paul John Stevens in 1991-92. "One thing that might be important to some justices is the point that diversity can be achieved by other means."
That was an argument Bush made Wednesday and is expected to be developed in the administration's brief. Texas, California and Florida have eliminated affirmative action and adopted plans that guarantee admission to students in the top of their high school classes.
Campus opinions divided
News of Bush's speech spread quickly through the U-M campus as students organized to show both support and outrage.
Scott Meves, a political science student, called Bush's announcement unfortunate.
"It's a hit to the educational system, it's frustrating and it's discouraging," the 20-year-old junior said. "I would like to think the justices wouldn't take this into consideration, but he's not just another person."
Sarra Navem, 19, of Wixom said she was happy Bush came out against affirmative action.
"We just hear one side of the issue on this campus. The side of the plaintiff isn't being heard," she said.
Longtime affirmative action opponent and U-M Professor Carl Cohen, who brought U-M's policies to light five years ago, was pleased.
"The people who do this are good people but it has a divisive effect," Cohen said. "It is unfair, unjust and a violation of the Civil Rights Act. I hope the Supreme Court sees it that way, too."
Detroit News Staff Writer Margarita Bauza' contributed to this report. You can reach Jodi S. Cohen at (313) 222-2269 or jcohen@detnews.com.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Nelly Ville
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1223253 - 01/16/03 09:33 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Damn that sure was a long piece of text. As I understand Bush called the U-M racial in their admission to the school some other guy says it aint so and hispanic americans support the president, right. I agree with the president on that and support every spanish-american in the US by saying that I'm with them in spirit. Now can you answer me something Innvertigo. Why is it that delaying of certain actions and decisions causes victims and the double nature of the home team isn't seen?


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Voodoo Doll]
    #1223290 - 01/16/03 09:52 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

***Why is it that delaying of certain actions and decisions causes victims and the double nature of the home team isn't seen? ****

What? :confused: Maybe i'm just not undestanding you but can you rephrase your question to something that concerns this topic?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,734
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1223367 - 01/16/03 11:06 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Affirmative action is nothing more than racism / gender preference.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Nelly Ville
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1223384 - 01/16/03 11:12 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Surrey about that. I'm foreign and from time to time I have diffeculties writing what I mean. It's a magic question. Me beeing a psychotic it made perfect sense to me. The question is about some current affairs in the spirit world and facts that are basicly hard to miss. The problem consists of one guy in foreign land that is beeing held against it's will. The entire land is supposedly trying to help out but by doing what they are doing they are exposing their dubious nature, to me that is. I don't mind if you don't react to this cause it's as strange as the other one.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Voodoo Doll]
    #1223491 - 01/16/03 12:06 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Once again, you're post is completely incomprehensible. Damn man, I know its tough for you, but its confusing as hell for us.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Anonymous

Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1223498 - 01/16/03 12:08 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Incomprehensible and... green.


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1223523 - 01/16/03 12:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

At least its not like Gaylord's, pink.  :grin:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1223529 - 01/16/03 12:22 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

In some respects, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I agree with Bush. Race shouldn't be a determining factor, in anything. Equal rights means equal rights, not help minorities while fucking over white kids. College admissions should be based solely on GPA, SAT, and extraciricular activities. I mean shit, minorities can already get all the damn scholarships they want, just for being a minority.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Skikid16]
    #1224066 - 01/16/03 04:09 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think it's disgusting how some people cloak racial preferences in "civil rights".
It's not about civil rights. It's about giving someone something they didn't earn
because of the color of their skin. It is racism and it is absolutely sickening. Martin
Luther King Jr. is rolling over in his grave.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1224471 - 01/16/03 06:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

It's about giving someone something they didn't earn
because of the color of their skin




How about giving somebody something they didn't earn because their daddy is rich and powerful? Here's a nice little article about how an average, mediocre student named George W. Bush had the right strings pulled in order to get into Yale:

The Yale man's legacy
by Joe Conason

Our text for this morning after the president's denunciation of affirmative action at the University of Michigan can be found on Pages 21-22 of "A Charge to Keep," the George W. Bush autobiography (written by Karen Hughes):

"Andover taught me the power of high standards. I was surrounded by people who were very smart, and that encouraged me to rise to the occasion. I was a solid student but not a top student. I did well in the courses I liked, such as history, math, and Spanish, and not so well in others, such as English. When I met with the dean to discuss different college options, I told him I would like to go to Yale. Many in my family had gone there; they loved the school and their love was infectious. On several weekends I had visited Yale to watch football games, and I was impressed by the campus. The dean tactfully suggested that I might think of other universities as well. I told him that if I did not get into Yale, there was only one other option for me, the University of Texas. I was not sure what would happen. I looked forward to either alternative. It was chaos in the mailroom the day the college acceptance letters arrived. The fat envelopes brought good news, the skinny ones rejection letters. I received a fat envelope from Yale and so did thirty-eight of my Andover classmates."

Let's examine a couple of key phrases in that uplifting passage. "I was a solid student but not a top student ... The dean tactfully suggested that I might think of other universities as well." It sounds as if Bush was pretty confident of attending Yale despite his so-so prep school transcript. He probably chose UT as his safety school because he surmised the state university wouldn't reject a prominent Texas politician's son. (That much he was easily smart enough to figure out.)

Why was the Andover dean so concerned about Bush's prospects at Yale? Perhaps he glanced at Bush's SAT score of 1206, above average but nowhere near the level needed for acceptance at an Ivy League school. (According to Cecil Adams, who writes the Straight Dope column, Bush's score was almost 200 points lower than the average for Yale freshmen circa 1970.) Bush's middling SAT score, incidentally, is roughly the same as that for most of the black students admitted to selective schools in a major Mellon Foundation study that began in 1976.

Perhaps that Andover dean also looked at Bush's "solid" grades, which may or may not have exceeded the C average he later earned at Yale. In other words, despite Bush's status as a Yale "legacy" from a very prominent and wealthy family, the dean was sufficiently naive to think he might not be admitted.

Back then, "affirmative action" for the sons and daughters of alumni was a major factor in admissions at Yale and other selective colleges -- and continues to be an important factor today. The children of alumni are about twice as likely to be accepted by Yale as other applicants. Whether their qualifications are twice as good, nobody seems to know. In the class of 2004, according to this interesting essay in the Yale Herald, the largest identifiable group of matriculates is from "families with some kind of Yale affiliation."

Now there is no movement among conservatives to require that legacy applicants (or athletes) display the same level of merit as anyone else admitted to an elite school. To the right diversity isn't an important value -- but traditions of family privilege must be preserved.




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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1225018 - 01/17/03 01:08 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

George bush getting accepted into yale because he's a relative of an alumni was wrong as well (unless yale is a private school, i can't remember) with that said it doesn't make it right because some rich kid got his way. The Univ. of Mich is pathetic when it comes to preferential treatment concerning minorities acceptance into the university of mich. One stat that i found odd was that the acceptance is based on a point system as noted. What wasn't put in the article is that when a person gets a 100% on their SAT's (which is extremely rare) they get 12 out of 150 points. If a minority just signs the application they get 20 out of 150 points. I want minorities in this country to suceed but i don't want it to be in spite of other more qualified (GPA etc.)white students.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Voodoo Doll]
    #1225029 - 01/17/03 01:19 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

****I don't mind if you don't react to this cause it's as strange as the other one****

i'd give you a smart ass remark but i find you to be pretty entertaining to say the least. :grin:

I still don't know what you're asking me.  Just be direct if you have to.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
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Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1225069 - 01/17/03 02:06 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Offering minorities extra points towards admossions is like saying that they are intelectually inferior and need a handicap!


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
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Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Voodoo Doll]
    #1225075 - 01/17/03 02:11 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes you are right.Hispanics support the president be cause some guy called the president says the um is racist. :grin: :grin: :grin:


If I understood you correctly?


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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: sirreal]
    #1225131 - 01/17/03 03:10 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You're right. If those that agree with affirmative action are basically saying that minorities need it because they are inferior. There is no difference between the minds of minorites and those minds that just happen to be in us white guys. There will NEVER be a racist-free society until this is realized.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1225464 - 01/17/03 06:28 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Affirmative action fans the flames of racial animosity. It keeps racism alive because it IS racism.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Evolving]
    #1225480 - 01/17/03 06:34 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I wonder if there are any on this site that would think that affirmative action in it's real form is fine?

to sum it up:

If you agree (noone in particular) with affirmative action then you're saying minorities are not as smart.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/17/03 06:36 AM)


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OfflineVoodoo Doll
curses for allof you

Registered: 01/10/03
Posts: 190
Loc: Nelly Ville
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1225494 - 01/17/03 06:40 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think so Innvertigo. When I took that political standpoint test I noticed that most people in the shroomery are liberterian lefties. They all sort of think alike and affirmative action isn't a thing we agree to


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Affimative Action and the Univ. of Mich. [Re: Voodoo Doll]
    #1225511 - 01/17/03 06:47 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

****I don't think so Innvertigo. When I took that political standpoint test I noticed that most people in the shroomery are liberterian lefties.****

Don't use that test as gospel. It said i was more of a centrist (which couldn't be further from the truth). Many of those questions were worded very badly. I retook the test and answered in a very black and white fashion and i was a definate righty/libertarian...

*****They all sort of think alike and affirmative action isn't a thing we agree to *****

you'd be mistaken. there are many on this site that feel that minorities need an extra boost. I like this topic and really wanted to present the forum with a blatent example of affirmative action gone astry (i was hoping for some opposition but there seems to be none at this time) I'm not a rascist guy and i have meet some extremely intellegent minorities that agree that affirmative action is just what it is. Racist.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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