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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1230445 - 01/19/03 05:21 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"Every federal appeals court in the country, except two judges on the Emerson panel, has rejected the NRA view, and has held that the Second Amendment does not provide individuals with a right to possess firearms absent a relationship with a state militia. With today's actions by the Supreme Court, the gun lobby continues its unbroken string of defeats in Second Amendment challenges to gun laws."

http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=404


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Anonymous

Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Xlea321]
    #1230556 - 01/19/03 06:10 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

And he quotes the Brady campaign. Alex, try searching for facts, not quotes from sources that are as ignorantly biased as you are.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Posts: 9,134
Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Anonymous]
    #1230589 - 01/19/03 06:25 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Stonedfish, the George Bush fan with his finger on the facts  :smirk:

I thought i told you to remind me never to waste my time on you again?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Xlea321]
    #1230819 - 01/19/03 08:24 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"Gun Control" by the Quincy Punx

357 or sawed off shotgun
You've got a right to choose your weapon
Outlaw guns, only outlaws'll have 'em
While I can, I'm gonna go and get me some

-Chorus-
Want me to give up my gun?
You gotta pry it from my cold dead hand
Want me to give up my weapon?
Ya better be a better shot than I am

Gun control means hitting your target
Fuck with me, lets see how far you get
This is the time, this is the hour
For peace through superior fire power

-Repeat Chorus-

-Bridge- Guns dont kill people, I do! 4X

I've got my sixpack and my trusty handgun
Waiting around for world war three to come
Gotta have protection out on the freeway
The person with the biggest gun has got the right of way

-Repeat chorus- 2X
-Repeat second verse-
-Repeat bridge-



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OfflineGazzBut
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Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1230929 - 01/19/03 09:28 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

"For peace through superior fire power" ????????? :confused: 


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Always Smi2le

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Anonymous

Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1230972 - 01/19/03 09:57 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I have a big stone wall to hide behind and shoot the Russians from in the event of WWIII.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Xlea321]
    #1230987 - 01/19/03 10:03 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

So let's see Alpo....
The NRA is biased but the Brady Bunch isn't? Refused to hear a case is not the same as making a decision on a case. Do you even have a clue how many cases the Supreme Court doesn't hear each year simply because there isn't enough time?

Maybe the Brady Bunch thinks England controlled 75% of the earth as well.

Does the word "people" mean something different in this ammendment than it does in the rest? Also, languge experts have broken down the wording and come to the same opinion any thinking individual does, it's an individual right.

You are sadly obtuse.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/19/03 10:08 AM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1232069 - 01/19/03 06:15 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Does the NRA have any examples of federals courts backing their position? (except the two judges on the emerson panel?)

Does the word "people" mean something different in this ammendment than it does in the rest?

Unfortunately for you and the NRA, they also used the word "militia". That's something you can't wriggle out of and why the entire federals court and supreme court dismiss the NRA's ludicrous interpretation.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Xlea321]
    #1232433 - 01/19/03 09:38 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Alpo, look up the definition of the word militia at the time of the writing of the bill of rights. If you take the time, which would surprise me since facts don't seem to phase you, you'll find every able bodied man was considered to be a member of the militia. Just because the definition is considered by the gun grabbers to mean the National Guard does not make it so. A lie is still a lie no matter how many times it's told.

mi?li?tia ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-lsh)
n.
An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.

reg?u?late ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rgy-lt)
tr.v. reg?u?lat?ed, reg?u?lat?ing, reg?u?lates
To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law.
To adjust to a particular specification or requirement: regulate temperature.
To adjust (a mechanism) for accurate and proper functioning.
To put or maintain in order: regulate one's eating habits.


Quote:

and why the entire federals court and supreme court dismiss the NRA's ludicrous interpretation.



You know that's wrong Alpo. Why do you continue to lie even after having been presented with the evidence? Is it so painful for you to admit you're wrong?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1232796 - 01/20/03 03:23 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Just because the definition is considered by the gun grabbers

The supreme court and every federal court in the land arn't really "gun grabbers" are they? They have the finest legal minds in the country working for them. A militia isn't the same thing as an individual no matter how many times you say it.

You know that's wrong Alpo.

Well, I asked you if the NRA's position had any backing from the supreme court or federal courts except the two judges on the emerson panel. I'm still waiting.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Xlea321]
    #1234115 - 01/20/03 11:30 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

A militia isn't the same thing as an individual no matter how many times you say it.



I not the only one saying it. The Supreme Court did in US vs Miller.

I provided the links to the 1 (one) 2nd ammendment supreme court case. Try reading it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/20/03 03:00 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Xlea321]
    #1234275 - 01/20/03 12:57 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Since reading obviously isn't your strong point, here you go. If you don't believe me the US vs Miller decision is easily found online.

----------------------------

In United States v. Miller,\4\ the Court sustained a statute
requiring registration under the National Firearms Act of sawed-off shotguns. After reciting the original provisions of the Constitution
dealing with the militia, the Court observed that ``[w]ith obvious
purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness
of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment
were made. It must be interpreted with that end in view.''\5\ The
significance of the militia, the Court continued, was that it was
composed of ``civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.'' It was upon
this force that the States could rely for defense and securing of the
laws, on a force that ``comprised all males physically capable of acting
in concert for the common defense,'' who, ``when called for service
. . . were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of
the kind in common use at the time.''\6\ Therefore, ``n the absence
of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a `shotgun
having a barrel of less than 18 inches in length' at this time has some
reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well-
regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees
the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not
within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary
military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common
defense.''\7\
---------------------------------


Satisfied? Or do you wish to continue lying?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/20/03 01:01 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1234848 - 01/20/03 05:36 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Bullshit. The richest man in the world is Bill Gates. He had close to 100 BILLION, sadly for him he has sunk to the 60 BILLION range. (poor bastard) NO-ONE has a trillion dollars. No family has a trillion dollars.

The Rothschilds have a policy of not publishing their earnings. So it is possible that they are worth more than Gates. If you read about the companies they own accross the world, which includes the major banks in many countries, you would guess they would be worth quite a bit. Though since they dont publish their earnings, those figures on their worth must be an estimate.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1234903 - 01/20/03 05:56 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

LOL. Are you that desperate? Do you have any other support for your case or is one renegade decision your only hope?

Try a few facts. I know they're alien to you, but with a bit of study you might just understand.

The Second Amendment in the Courts

As a matter of law, the meaning of the Second Amendment has been settled since the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in U.S. v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939). In that case, the Court ruled that the "obvious purpose" of the Second Amendment was to "assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness" of the state militia.

Since Miller, the Supreme Court has addressed the Second Amendment twice more, upholding New Jersey's strict gun control law in 1969 and upholding the federal law banning felons from possessing guns in 1980. Furthermore, twice ? in 1965 and 1990 ? the Supreme Court has held that the term "well-regulated militia" refers to the National Guard.

In the early 1980s, the Supreme Court addressed the Second Amendment issue again, after the town of Morton Grove, Illinois, passed an ordinance banning handguns (making certain reasonable exceptions for law enforcement, the military, and collectors). After the town was sued on Second Amendment grounds, the Illinois Supreme Court and the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that not only was the ordinance valid, but there was no individual right to keep and bear arms under the Second Amendment (Quillici v. Morton Grove) . In October 1983, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal of this ruling, allowing the lower court rulings to stand.

In 1991, former Supreme Court Chief Justice Warren Burger referred to the Second Amendment as "the subject of one of the greatest pieces of fraud, I repeat the word ?fraud,' on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime.. .[the NRA] ha(s) misled the American people and they, I regret to say, they have had far too much influence on the Congress of the United States than as a citizen I would like to see ? and I am a gun man." Burger also wrote, "The very language of the Second Amendment refutes any argument that it was intended to guarantee every citizen an unfettered right to any kind of weapon...[S]urely the Second Amendment does not remotely guarantee every person the constitutional right to have a ?Saturday Night Special' or a machine gun without any regulation whatever. There is no support in the Constitution for the argument that federal and state governments are powerless to regulate the purchase of such firearms..."

Since the Miller decision, lower federal and state courts have addressed the meaning of the Second Amendment in more than thirty cases. In every case, up until March of 1999 (see below), the courts decided that the Second Amendment refers to the right to keep and bear arms only in connection with a state militia. Even more telling, in its legal challenges to federal firearms laws like the Brady Law and the assault weapons ban, the National Rifle Association makes no mention of the Second Amendment. Indeed, the National Rifle Association has not challenged a gun law on Second Amendment grounds in several years.

The Renegade Decision: U.S. v. Emerson

On March 30, 1999, U.S. District Judge for Northern Texas Sam R. Cummings restored a domestic abuser's firearms, citing the Second Amendment as guaranteeing an individual right to keep and bear arms. This decision flies in the face of years of precedence and jurisprudence and can only be viewed as a renegade decision. In his opinion, Judge Cummings was unable to follow usual judicial practice and cite legal precendents that undergird his decision because there are none. This ruling has been appealed and since that decision, two federal courts, including a higher Circuit court, have ruled that the Second Amendment does not guarantee an individual right to keep and bear arms (Gillespie v. City of Indianapolis).


As for the meaning of militias try this.

When the U.S. Constitution was adopted, each of the states had its own "militia" ? a military force comprised of ordinary citizens serving as part-time soldiers. The militia was "well-regulated" in the sense that its members were subject to various requirements such as training, supplying their own firearms, and engaging in military exercises away from home. It was a form of compulsory military service intended to protect the fledgling nation from outside forces and from internal rebellions.

The "militia" was not, as the gun lobby will often claim, simply another word for the populace at large. Indeed, membership in the 18th century militia was generally limited to able-bodied white males between the ages of 18 and 45 ? hardly encompassing the entire population of the nation.

The U.S. Constitution established a permanent professional army, controlled by the federal government. With the memory of King George III's troops fresh in their minds, many of the "anti-Federalists" feared a standing army as an instrument of oppression. State militias were viewed as a counterbalance to the federal army and the Second Amendment was written to prevent the federal government from disarming the state militias.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Xlea321]
    #1235182 - 01/20/03 09:33 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Keep trying Al and try reading the decisions you quote. I have. The entire thing, not the Brady Bunch version of Cliff notes.

And it's funny that even after I pasted the link (in a prvious post) and a portion of US vs Miller right here, and after you criticize the decision, you keep using it as your proof.

Not even up to your usual sad efforts.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/20/03 09:35 PM)

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1235500 - 01/21/03 03:28 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

In other words you lost.

One renegade decision does not a debate make.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: FACTS THAT PUT THIS WHOLE MESS INTO PERSPECTIVE [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236719 - 01/21/03 11:20 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

What a surprise to see that you see it that way.

Near as I can tell, no-one here has lost a debate to you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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