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Invisiblefastfred
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100X Potency increase using light conditions...
    #12214443 - 03/16/10 06:07 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Enhancement of Indole Alkaloids Produced by Psilocybe cubensis in Controlled Harvesting Light Conditions
Rafati, Riahi and Mohammadi. 2009
International Journal of Medicinal Mushrooms

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/download.php?Number=12213981
Or go to the post it was posted in if you have trouble...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12213981#12213981


Who wants to be the first to bash/praise this paper?


-FF
Is there any merit to this paper?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from (03/16/10 06:07 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll


Edited by fastfred (03/16/10 06:39 PM)

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OfflineSkrood 1
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: fastfred]
    #12214575 - 03/16/10 06:24 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I cant read the paper for some reason.

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OfflineNewfound_wonder
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: fastfred]
    #12214577 - 03/16/10 06:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Further experiments are needed to verify this conclusion, although this does provide an interesting hypothesis.


--------------------
If it's good for fungus, it's good for us...

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: Skrood 1]
    #12214667 - 03/16/10 06:38 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Skrood 1 said:
I cant read the paper for some reason.




Try using this link to the post it was uploaded in...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12213981#12213981

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OfflineNewfound_wonder
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: fastfred]
    #12214806 - 03/16/10 07:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I wonder if the researchers let the dark mushrooms dry longer than the wet mushrooms.  Or maybe light mushrooms can retain water longer than dark mushrooms.  Either way, unless they verified that all group samples had the same ([water]/gram of dried mushroom) ratio then the huge difference in potency may be due to how dry the samples were.  Kind of like how 10g of dried mushrooms is much more potent than 10g freshly picked mushrooms.


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If it's good for fungus, it's good for us...

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OfflineChemical Sandman
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: Newfound_wonder]
    #12215164 - 03/16/10 08:00 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

water - no water


--------------------
"It's that in me there is no sorcery, there is no anger, there are no lies. Because I don't have garbage, I don't have dust. The sickness comes out if the sick vomit. They vomit the sickness. They vomit because the mushrooms want them to. If the sick don't vomit, I vomit. I vomit for them and in that way the malady is expelled. The mushrooms have power because they are the flesh of God. And those that believe are healed. Those that do not believe are not healed."(Maria Sabina)

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres." (Albert Einstein)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: Chemical Sandman]
    #12216262 - 03/16/10 11:13 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

There was already a thread on this in cultivation last year.  Here's my take on it.
RR


--------------------
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"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #12216788 - 03/17/10 01:49 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the link.  I agree with what you said in your post.  This paper was a wreck, even from a middle eastern school.

But one thing this points out is what I've known for decades... If you grow in total darkness you'll get a few (or even a bunch of) odd looking albino fruits after a long ass time, but they'll be super potent.

It's worthless knowledge but it only stands to reason that if you spend 2-4X the time growing a relatively few abnormal fruits they'll be overly potent.  100X is absurd though IMHO.


-FF

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: fastfred]
    #12216820 - 03/17/10 02:03 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I tried contacting H_Rafati <at> sbu.ac.ir  about this at the time but never got a response.  It was pretty well hung out to dry a while ago, and I'm sticking with MAYBE, however I did not read the paper.  Which I will now. :smile:

Peace
-PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Invisiblenaum
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: fastfred]
    #12217672 - 03/17/10 09:45 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I agree that this is a very weak paper at best.

It's usefulness is really limited by the fact that the raw data like the mass of fruit bodies collected and the psilocin concentration measured are NOT presented. Furthermore, conditions were only tested twice which is nowhere near enough. I'm not sure that this was a MS inoculation based on the wording in the paper. They mention using a casing layer, but the pictures certainly don't show it.

I don't have that many qualms with the sample preparation procedure as this is a comparative study; the sample preparation procedure should be biased toward greater degradation of psilocin/psilocybin in thinner fruit bodies like those grown in dark conditions. The sample preparation procedure involves drying the fruit bodies at 50 deg. C overnight, grinding them in a mortar, ultrasonicating 70mg MM powder for 1hr in 1 mL CHCl3, centrifuging the resultant solution, drying the resultant solution under N2, and derivitizing with N-methyl-N-(trimethylsilyl)trifluoroacetamide. It appears that the authors tried other extraction procedures which would have been better, but they couldn't get them to work. It's not apparent why they decided to dry the fruit bodies at 50 deg C as the paper which their procedure came from used freeze dried mushrooms. Derivitization is a necessary step for GC/MS analysis of psilocybin; LC-MS or HPLC would have been better techniques for this analysis.

My main qualms are the fact that the paper is horribly devoid of details and that they didn't take the time to figure out why they only observed psilocin and not psilocybin. Did they use an internal standard? Did they use a negative? Why did they use a different stationary phase than their reference?

I found this to be laughable:
Quote:

Interestingly, photodegradation of PC/PB in aqueous solution was also reported [...] which may explain the results of the present work.




The only thing that this study suggests of any value to the OMC is just to focus on optimizing the growing conditions (i.e. strength of light) to increase the yield of fruiting bodies as there is little to no difference in psilocin/psilocybin concentration in mushrooms grown in dim light vs intense light.

Edit:
100x increase is insane. That's ~8.0% w/w active alkaloids/dried mushroom based on previous studies of light-grown mushrooms.

Edited by naum (03/17/10 12:05 PM)

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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: naum]
    #12217722 - 03/17/10 10:01 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

shenanigans


--------------------
EAT GETS SHIT DONE


:flame::chief:JOIN THE POW WOW:chief::flame:

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: eatyualive]
    #12218233 - 03/17/10 11:51 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

This paper is a disaster.  I can't believe it was actually published.

Looks like they tried five extraction systems before they were even able to detect anything in their samples.  That alone should have told them there was some major fuckup somewhere in their procedure.  Since every one of those extraction procedures has been reported in the literature as working, they must have a major flaw somewhere.

It's probably their derivatization procedure, which I don't understand why they need.

One interesting thing is the difference in the chromatogram of the light vs dark samples.  Look at fig a vs fig b.  There's a lot more peaks on the light grown samples.

So maybe that's something worth investigating.  There might be qualitative differences in the fruits.  Perhaps fruits grown in the dark have more actives and less undesirable extras...


-FF

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Invisiblenaum
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: fastfred]
    #12218377 - 03/17/10 12:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Yes, the fact that their procedure only worked with one of several published/standard procedures was a major red-flag for me.  I think that the purpose is to allow quantification of psilocybin in addition to psilocin by GC/MS. The Keller paper that they reference (attached) uses that same derivitization procedure in order to quantify both. As I mentioned above, another red flag is the fact that they observe only one peak while using this derivitization procedure...

It's not that surprising that it was published in a non-Chemistry journal. I've seen far worse. :shrug:
More surprising to me that you're allowed to do this sort of research in Iran.


--------------------
Let's upgrade our security practices and move toward client-side PGP for encrypted PMs.
My Public PGP Key: hxxps://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24002249#24002249

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: naum]
    #12218825 - 03/17/10 01:41 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I have read it now, and I'm quite glad I didn't spring for the PDF when it was first available. :shrug:

Carl Sagan would have it that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" and they don't deliver that.  No mass amounts, not even the reduction of the GC figures, but from what I can see in the scanned PDF, the relation between the putative psilocin peaks is around 2.7e6/1e5/2.5e5, which itself is not a 100x difference, as claimed.

And I know this kind of thing has been tested and if it were true (for mass effects!  not for ratios with drastically reduced fruiting weight!) it would be well known already.

Further, there are a lot of uncontrolled variables.  I really don't like that they couldn't detect any actives with the other tests they tried - how can you possibly recommend a single procedure when it hasn't been cross-validated? 

I think one point they're attempting to make, and one that I've seen addressed elsewhere, is the variability of the PC/PS ratios depending on sample prep and exposure to oxidizing conditions.

Rather non-meaty results, if you ask me. And those spindly grown-in-the-dark fruits, that cannot be right...

Peace
-PS


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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InvisiblePinback
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #12219407 - 03/17/10 03:22 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

It is the area under the curve that shows the relative amount, not the peak height.

Looks like IJMM will accept anything. That paper should never have been accepted IMO. I've seen other bad (dubious) papers in it as well.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: Pinback]
    #12219729 - 03/17/10 04:22 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

A long time ago I forgot/left some jars in darkness for a long time.  When I finally got around to taking care of them there were those spindly albinoish fruits.

The person I gave them to said they were incredibly potent.  So I don't doubt that fruits that grow slowly over a much longer period of time will be more potent.  But the paper doesn't give much in the way of details and they should have pointed out how much longer it took to fruit in the darkness.


-FF

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: Pinback]
    #12221630 - 03/17/10 10:55 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

It is the area under the curve that shows the relative amount, not the peak height.




Good point! I didn't bother to integrate it, having another look: well, that's kind of useless.  What's the time resolution of the equipment anyway?

Personally, I see them looking for drug discovery money with this project - "here, we've got a setup that can do some experiments".  Not a bad thing in itself, but it just seems protocol is rather shaky.

-PS

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #12223251 - 03/18/10 09:11 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I doubt the scientific community is any less skeptical of the paper than we are here.

Seems more to me like some undergrad project they pushed into publication for one reason or another.  I highly doubt they'll be getting any more money as a result of this paper.


-FF

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InvisibleOgla
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: fastfred]
    #12223630 - 03/18/10 10:41 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

it looks like it was written in the 60's and isnt that impressive

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OfflinePrimalSoup
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Re: 100X Potency increase using light conditions... [Re: fastfred]
    #12223764 - 03/18/10 11:09 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seems more to me like some undergrad project they pushed into publication for one reason or another.




This exactly.  The intro was the best part!

-PS

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