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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: deCypher]
    #12206445 - 03/15/10 01:43 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

We can understand many things with such a model:
But all of them are related to interaction with the physical
How do thoughts interact with the physical? Brain models will help
How does the physical interact with thought? Brain models will help
How does the physical interact with the physical? Brain models will hep

But awareness of thought... that's something else
And brain models tell us nothing of this interaction.
They cannot. Awareness does not start or stop anywhere.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: Kickle]
    #12206459 - 03/15/10 01:45 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Awareness of thought involves a thought about a thought, no?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: deCypher]
    #12206475 - 03/15/10 01:48 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Nah. Just the experience of thought.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: Kickle]
    #12206481 - 03/15/10 01:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

And the instant we try to talk about the experience of thought we automatically produce a thought about thought, no?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: deCypher]
    #12206484 - 03/15/10 01:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Yep, absolutely...one that we can be aware of as well. 
Did you look through my thread in S&M at all?
It might be worth your time


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: Kickle]
    #12206493 - 03/15/10 01:52 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I usually don't read threads about Buddhist psychology of the mind because I never understand the definition of the terms people use.  :satansmoking:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: deCypher]
    #12206503 - 03/15/10 01:54 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Haha...
well, as you please

But you'll never know for sure if you don't look :satansmoking:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: Kickle]
    #12206522 - 03/15/10 01:56 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

goddamnit, why does curiosity always have to kill the cheshire cat

which was never really there in the first place because it's just a literary abstraction :tongue2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: Kickle]
    #12206720 - 03/15/10 02:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
We can understand many things with such a model:
But all of them are related to interaction with the physical
How do thoughts interact with the physical? Brain models will help
How does the physical interact with thought? Brain models will help
How does the physical interact with the physical? Brain models will hep

But awareness of thought... that's something else
And brain models tell us nothing of this interaction.
They cannot. Awareness does not start or stop anywhere.




Niiice :thumbup:
Awareness of awareness... now that's something else!

:psychsplit:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: Silversoul]
    #12207165 - 03/15/10 03:44 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Could you please cite the scientific theory you are referring to?  I must have missed that in my physics class.




You're not familiar with the idea that time is a phenomenon which only exists relative to space and the manner in which it changes? It is a scientific concept of time that I referred to as a basis for the ideas I expressed earlier.... 

Quote:


  Furthermore, how can change occur in a moment?  Change requires duration, whereas a moment is singular and static.
...That's kind of my point:  The present moment isn't a moment at all.





Are you suggesting that your point is nothing but bad semantics?

  • moment
    2. the present time or any other particular time


The only meaning the word moment conveys is not "an indefinitely short amount or time" or "an instant". A lot of words have multiple meanings.
The present moment, I reckon, is a particular time... I never knew that a specific time couldn't have duration, considering that its nature as time is duration... so using the word moment to describe it naturally seems perfectly apt. :shrug:

To recapitulate my originally-expressed point of view:
Change only happens in the present moment (or "present", for the semantically-impaired).
To exist means to be, to have actual being, to occur. In other words, to be present.
By definition, the past doesn't exist - it existed. It no longer exists. Only the present can exist as that is what it means to exist.
The only state of existence is within the present moment. More accurately, as the present moment. 
To spice it up from there, existence changes.
Distinct aspects of existence exist, continue to exist, and then, through changing into another aspect of existence, no longer exist.
Something is either present, or its not. If it isn't, it doesn't exist.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: fireworks_god]
    #12207214 - 03/15/10 03:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

How can a time period of length zero be called 'existent'?
If the present moment had a length it would have a begin, middle and end. That wouldn't be the present moment but a period in time.
How do you defend logically and rationally the existence of a non-existent time period?
There is no present imo. Only the projection of such a thing created in our mind and projected upon the external world.

It's just conformity and protocol to speak of the present moment. In reality there is no such thing. :ohwell:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: Ahimsa]
    #12207308 - 03/15/10 04:11 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Ahimsa said:
If the present moment had a length it would have a begin, middle and end.




And you presume it doesn't?

Quote:


How do you defend logically and rationally the existence of a non-existent...




You're asking how I would defend the existence of something that doesn't exist? :rofl2:

Quote:


There is no present imo. Only the projection of such a thing created in our mind and projected upon the external world.




Existence is a projection upon the external world? :wtf:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: fireworks_god]
    #12207374 - 03/15/10 04:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No the present moment has no length. If it did it wouldn't be the present moment but a period in time.
Indeed you can't defend the existence of what doesn't exist.
Name one thing that wasn't created in your mind and then projected upon the external world. Even the external world is a fabrication of the mind.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: Ahimsa]
    #12207423 - 03/15/10 04:27 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Name one thing that wasn't created in your mind and then projected upon the external world. Even the external world is a fabrication of the mind.




I don't think he argued against that? :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineAhimsa
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Re: The illusion of the present moment [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #12207456 - 03/15/10 04:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Oh... :mad::crazy::frown::smirk::smile::laugh:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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