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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: mycofile]
    #1219241 - 01/14/03 09:01 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Mycofile: 'IMHO, don't buy into the potency hype. My experience over years of cultivating and tripping is that potency is way to general for damn near anybody who is going to be posting on these boards to judge accurately. Not to mention how many different variables are at play other than substrate.'
That is close to patronising. Since you should know that the alkaloids in Psilocybes are derived by the mycelia converting L-tryptophan and tryptophan found in the substrate into psilocybin and psilocin substrate is by FAR the most important factor in potency as Gartz's studies have already indicated. Bigwood and Beug found a difference in potency of cubensis between flushes, Stivje and DeMeijer found significant differences in potency between maxima of cubensis spore races, but none more significant that Gartz's differences from precursors study. So the precursor level in substrate has been proven to be indicative of potency.
I too have plenty of experience and I dont suggest that millet provides more potent cubensis than BRF, im TELLING YOU THAT IT DOES! :smile:


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OfflineNumba9
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Registered: 05/24/01
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: gdr]
    #1219599 - 01/15/03 02:51 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The Dethhead`s tek is the easiest..... 2/3 cup seed.... 1/3 cup water.... I don`t even soak the millet... just p.c for 1 hour.... But here`s a little trick.... I P.C. for 15 minutes... release the pressure with a large spoon...lifting the valve.. pull jars out with a pot holder and shake and tap the bottom of jars....Then back in the P.C. for and hour. This assures grains are not one solid wet mass.. nice and airy. A pinch of agricultural gypsum from your local nursery in each jar will help with clumping too.


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Remember..what the Door Mouse said..."Feed your Head".......... Jefferson Airplane


Edited by Numba9 (01/15/03 02:51 AM)


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Invisiblemycofile
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Registered: 01/19/99
Posts: 2,336
Loc: Uranus
Trusted Cultivator
Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1225347 - 01/17/03 05:27 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

STrange, I thought I posted this several days ago. anyway, it went something like:

I certainly didn't intend to come across as patronising. I just think that the average home cultivator isn't equipped to measure the potency changes in any meaningful way. Regardless of the studies you mention, the home cultivator is judging potency via bio-assays. These tests have too many impossible to control variables to allow them to even be considered as tests of potency.

Also, I didn't knock millet, especially millet vs. BRF. But I didn't go from BRF to millet, I went from rye and wheat to millet. No noticable difference in potency, but again, only verified through bioassays. When comparing BRF to any grain, the variable that a typical home cultivator isn't going to account for isn't precurser levels in either substrate, but amount of nutrition of all kinds available to fungi. I'm sure you are familiar with the concept that any verm mixed into a substrate (as all BRF mixes are) reduces the total amount of nutrition available. A 1/2 pt PF jar has about a 1/5 or less of the amount of food as a 1/2 pt of any grain. As a starving culture certainly isn't going to produce as many actives as a thriving one is, comparisons of BRF to any grain are skewed in the first place. Comparisons need to be based on dry weight of nutritious substrate, not volume. Following a similar vein, due to it's size and shape, ime millet tends to be heavier per unit of volume than other grains. 1# of millet vs 1# of wheat would be a better comparison than 1qt of millet vs 1qt of wheat. Even at that, making the comparison based on a bio-assay is suspect unless you go through the trouble of doing double blind studies on your friends.

Now, while your fruits may seem more potent when using millet instead of BRF, I think that there are too many variables involved to say specificaly that it is due to the precursers in millet. I also think that for many users, simply telling them that the fruits were grown in a way to make them more potent will provide similar results.

I don't knock the work of the true scientists involved in determining potency variables, and I don't knock the attempt to incorporate their work into home practices. I just think that anybody using a particular substrate for the sole reason of increasing potency has either been hyped or is hyping themselves. Use grain because it's a more nutritious, higher producing substrate. IMO, none of the popular grains produces a noticable affect on potency once all other variables are accounted for as much as they can be in the home environment.

Now, some people approach things like this from the point of view of maximizing every possible variable, regardless of if the effect is noticable or not. The theory being that if you optimize enough difficult to notice variables then an effect is noticable. I completely agree with this opinion as long as people recognize that they may or may not see significant differences.

Again, I apologize for coming across as patronising. I just don't want anybody to get their hopes up for astonishing increases in potency, or for them to attribute any noticed increase to factors which may not really be at play.


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"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: mycofile]
    #1227098 - 01/17/03 05:00 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Again there are assumptions being made about the quantity of nutrients in a substrate mix. I will give anyone five prints if they grow out an isolate of the same cubensis on 250mls of brown rice whole, 250mls of ryegrain, 250mls of wheat straw and 250mls of millet and if they do not find through bioassay alone that their cubensis is more potent there is something wrong.
I have used all of the above and ground them personally and mixed with verm at the same ratios PF style and ive still noticed a considerable difference. Same quantities, same isolate different alkaloid levels and ive done so many times.
You are underestimating the variability of cubensis itself - bigwood and B. found variations in cubensis of psilocin contents of around .4% which is huge.


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OfflineStarspawn
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Registered: 07/25/02
Posts: 98
Loc: ShowMeState
Last seen: 17 years, 8 months
Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1227765 - 01/17/03 10:12 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Will spawned dung always make stronger fruits then cased grains? It seems to me that grains alone never grow better.I know spawning takes longer but i think of it like any of the other steps.What do you think?


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InvisibleSixTango
Mycota

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: Starspawn]
    #1227870 - 01/17/03 11:57 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The more nutes a substrate contains, the bigger the shrooms -- generaly (under optimal conditions).

Pasrurized dung - dung/straw combo & compost (deep substrates) have given me many stout shrooms. Some well over 125 grams & in thick flushes.

Substrates that contain enhanced nutes & precursor items seem to give stronger / longer highs. I can only say "seem", as that was my experiance (as well as those who tripped with me).
6T :wink: 


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~


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InvisibleSixTango
Mycota

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: SixTango]
    #1227872 - 01/18/03 12:00 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Another example 6T  :tongue: 


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~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Registered: 06/18/01
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Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: SixTango]
    #1229106 - 01/18/03 02:49 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I agree


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Invisibledeanofmean
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Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 2,017
Loc: PNW
Re: substrate change-->yield/potency increase [Re: SixTango]
    #1229247 - 01/18/03 04:00 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

nice pics, Tango
tai strain ?
damn buddas know how to gro mushies :grin:
i jus know im gonna get flamed for this  :crazy: 


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