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Offlineehud
Rocket Scientist
Registered: 10/23/01
Posts: 217
Loc: Middle America
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
you dont get a job from a poor person
    #1218824 - 01/14/03 07:17 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

"you dont get a job from a poor person"

I heard somebody say that over the break. It is a good way to explain why Bush will probly get re-elected after these tax cuts work thier magic. Big companies getting money back from the government so that they can invest into making thier company strong is the best way to create jobs. It would take alot longer to "stimulate" the economy by giving the poorest people money to spend at stores like Wallmart. Who here works at Wallmart? Im not say that those jobs arn't important too, but they certainly arn't the bread and butter of this country.
I think the only reason the Democrats are trying to make Bush's tax cuts look bad are because they are scared that they just might work. I hope everybody remembers three years from now when we have a nice booming economy who really set the plan into action.

Anyway Happy New Year. Hope this world doesn't get too fucked up this time around.
(p.s. mark two more asshole bombings down for the Arab's side this past month)<- I guess they have thier reasons.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ehud]
    #1218958 - 01/14/03 07:55 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Big companies getting money back from the government so that they can invest into making thier company strong

Why on earth would they invest in making their company strong if they know they can always get handouts? They are far more likely to invest it in 400% pay rises for directors, new mansions and swimming pools.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDilauded
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Registered: 10/29/02
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Loc: Krunkville, FL
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1219263 - 01/14/03 09:07 PM (19 years, 18 days ago)

Nicely said ehud, at least someone has some common sense on this subject. I'd like to point out the reason why the economy dropped when Bush got in wasn't because of Bush, the President has no power over except making obstacles for it to succeed. Bush stated taxes are an obstacle and when you take em away you'll see more success. But besides that, when Clinton was in, everone said o what a great economy, WELL ENRON was bankrupt long before it was publicized as well as other companies like World Com etc... The President's tresurer or whoever auditing wasn't giving a correct report. So in the stock market you'd see everything going well b/c of a false auditing of the companies. Then Bush gets in and the guy who does the audits for Clinton is out, Bush's man audits the companies and drop in stocks. Jesus it MUST BE THE PRESIDENT!!! Democrats are just fucking dirty as hell. Not the people being brainwashed, but the politicians who do all the brainwashing and lies and throw the dirt at whatever Republican they can find. But you know, you rarely ever see a Republican and Democrat come together and debate something other then when they have to like Senatorial debates or Presidential. Why, because Republicans are intellectuals and they've had a good answer for every negative question the Dems throw at them, but when it comes to ask the Dem a question, they say something that means nothing toward the matter and change the subject. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. For you people who don't believe me, go watch some CSPAN. You'll learn something.

Quote:

Why on earth would they invest in making their company strong if they know they can always get handouts? They are far more likely to invest it in 400% pay rises for directors, new mansions and swimming pools.




God damn Alex, you've got a problem with more money. SO WHAT, you made a post about Communism saying it wasn't that bad an idea. Well in Communism EVERYBODY is at the bottom, equally poor, the rich will leave the country b/c the taxes are horrendous. BUT YOU FAIL TO SEE THIS, while everybody lives equally, as you so desire, the high ranks in government are living in MANSIONS and swimming pools a bunch of cars, eating lavishly good food, and complete luxery. DO YOU SEE A PROBLEM WITH THIS???

Yes, those directors will get a raise, but after going through college, and making it through business school, THEY DESERVE IT, and its not just the directors that will get the pay raise, the whole work force will. Clinton wanted to raise the minimum wage, ALREADY we're paying about 40% of our salary to taxes, now a higher minimum wage??? Lemme tell you something, minimum wage is where EVERYBODY STARTS, if you're a hard worker and don't slack off you'll get a raise. THAT'S how its supposed to be. But that's a little off the subject.

Monosiplinatrosinistity,
Dilauded


Edited by Dilauded (01/14/03 09:44 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1220160 - 01/15/03 07:33 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Since when is paying less the same as getting a handout? I guess when I pay $200 in taxes as opposed to the $300 I would have paid a year ago, I'm getting a $100 handout.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Dilauded]
    #1220303 - 01/15/03 08:40 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

its not just the directors that will get the pay raise, the whole work force will.

I've worked in enough places to know this isn't the case.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1220682 - 01/15/03 10:32 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

Well what's holding you back from looking for a better job???


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Dilauded]
    #1220861 - 01/15/03 11:15 AM (19 years, 17 days ago)

It's not about me - I'm doing fine.

Amazingly enough I care about people.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ehud]
    #1222362 - 01/16/03 12:28 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Big companies getting money back from the government so that they can invest into making thier company strong is the best way to create jobs

If that were the case the poor and middle class should be getting richer. But in fact the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer and the middle class are disappearing. The rate of unemployment would be getting better not worse.


Edited by Eno_ (01/16/03 12:54 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1222899 - 01/16/03 06:58 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Do you have any proof that the poor are getting pooer, other than that worn out cliche? The rich are getting richer, sure, but what does that matter? I look around me and see a flourishing middle class.

Oh, people are losing their jobs because of the recession which, though the government can really do very little about, is being worked on through the plan in the original post, which has not been put into effect.

And once again, the key word in the statement "companies getting money back from the government" is the word BACK, meaning it was the companies' money to begin with.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Anonymous]
    #1223047 - 01/16/03 08:20 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

The rich are getting richer, sure, but what does that matter?

Money isn't usually in infinite supply. If someone's getting more it's a good bet someone else is getting less. We agree the rich are getting more - so who do you think is getting less?

meaning it was the companies' money to begin with.

Lots of ordinary people pay tax's too. You sure none of their money got pissed away in corporate welfare?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1223065 - 01/16/03 08:27 AM (19 years, 16 days ago)

And likewise, are you sure that none of the corporations money is being pissed away in social welfare programs?

How do you know the rich are getting richer at the poor's expense and not at other rich people's expense?

How about this: the rich who are getting richer are doing so by investing wisely in the stock market, thus taking money not from any particular class, but from those who invest in the same companies causing the stock price to grow, and from those who sold their shares at inflated prices.


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Anonymous]
    #1223881 - 01/16/03 02:43 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Yeah the rich get richer that way. But by having to do very little at all for that extra money except sit on their bums and wait for that money to multiply. The poor dont have that opportunity because they dont have a surplus beyond survival needs. In a report the US govt put out. It said that the gap between the rich and poor was going to have to continue to grow, suggesting it was already growing.

There have been official reports in Australia made recently saying the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer which the govt has refused to publish.


Edited by Eno_ (01/16/03 02:50 PM)


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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1223954 - 01/16/03 03:12 PM (19 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

But by having to do very little at all for that extra money except sit on their bums and wait for that money to multiply


Investing is a little more complicated than that. Everyone always bitches at the rich for getting richer, but many times they have earned that wealth through ambition, intelligence, and hard work, granted there are plenty of rich bastards that make their fortune through exploitation or inheritance, but there are plenty of others who have earned their keep.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Anonymous]
    #1225181 - 01/17/03 04:05 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

How about this: the rich who are getting richer are doing so by investing wisely in the stock market, thus taking money not from any particular class




The stock market involves money, money circulates from one hand to another, it doesn't pop up from the void and investing "wisely" is like a weather forecast, sometimes you get wrong and puff !! A couple of companies change hands, become uninteresting, are sold and some hundred of workers loose their jobs. Now , tell me who won something with all this ?

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: MAIA]
    #1225743 - 01/17/03 08:25 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

>A couple of companies change hands, become uninteresting, are sold and some hundred of workers loose their jobs.

I'm guessing you're referring to Enron and other crooked companies who make liberal use of insider trading. This is illegal and doesn't happen as much as the media would have you believe.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Anonymous]
    #1226105 - 01/17/03 10:20 AM (19 years, 15 days ago)

This is illegal and doesn't happen as much as the media would have you believe.

And you know this how exactly? What "insider knowledge" do you have?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1234887 - 01/20/03 07:48 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Investing is a little more complicated than that.

So what's that, they have to find a good financial advisor?


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1235112 - 01/20/03 09:59 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

How did they earn the money necessary to obtain the advice of a good finacial advisor? Some did it dirty, some did it honest. Their will always be corruption, but there will also always be integrity (I hope).


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1235123 - 01/20/03 10:07 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

I'm just saying that I can't see how investing takes a lot of ambition, intelligence, and hard work. People who have become very rich have usually invested money and the amount of money they end up with is not proportional to the amount of work they did over thier life.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1235139 - 01/20/03 10:34 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

But it takes the capital to start investing, and the continued capital to gain access to investment consultation.

Besides, investing is vital to the economy, when you invest, if the company you invested in has sound business practices, they will use your money to expand and improve their business which usually equates to more jobs, better services and improved products. So in turn, investors are letting their money provide others opportunities for jobs which otherwise wouldn't have existed if the intital investment in the company wasn't made. All I'm trying to say is even if investors didn't do work to earn their money, they took risks, risks that provided others opportunities.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1235553 - 01/21/03 05:50 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

improved products

If it led to improved air, improved water and improved living standards I might be interested. A pair of Nike's with 6 laceholes instead of 5 launched with a 500 million dollar ad campaign to convince kids it will help their lives is precisely what the world doesn't need.

And the corporations have gained enormous power over the last 20 years - are people any happier? You ever talked to anyone who was alive in the 50's or 60's? Ask them if the quality of life they lived back then was better than it is now, if their jobs were better or if they're pay was better. Then go and ask a 2003 macdonalds employee how happy he is with his lot.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1235661 - 01/21/03 06:43 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

If it led to improved air, improved water and improved living standards I might be interested.


I agree, but we are talking economics.
Quote:

A pair of Nike's with 6 laceholes instead of 5 launched with a 500 million dollar ad campaign to convince kids it will help their lives is precisely what the world doesn't need.


I don't buy nike, most of the shoes I wear don't have laceholes, so I'm not involved. But if some idiot wants to pay 120 bucks for a shoe because of a "500 million dollar ad campaign", well who am I to tell them they can't. Its their money.
Quote:

You ever talked to anyone who was alive in the 50's or 60's?


I can find 10 people that were alive in the fifties to say their life is better now, so what?
Quote:

Then go and ask a 2003 macdonalds employee how happy he is with his lot.


Well do you think a 1950's McDonald's worker was happy with their lot. Besides, because we live in an economically free country, he has the opportunity to take steps and measures to improve his lot. That is a good aspect of our economic freedom, a down side is the fact that if people are willing to buy something, suppliers will continue to produce that product which leads to overconsumption. You gotta take the good with the bad.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


Edited by Skikid16 (01/21/03 10:03 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1236714 - 01/21/03 01:19 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Gosh Alpo, I was alive in the 50's and 60's. My life is much better now.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1236746 - 01/21/03 01:29 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

I was alive in the 60's, my life is MUCH MUCH better now. But then I don't bitch and whine that I'm not being taken care of...


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Evolving]
    #1236754 - 01/21/03 01:31 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

I was alive in the 60's



You young whippersnapper!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ehud]
    #1237968 - 01/21/03 08:16 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

A question though: who is more likely to save and horde there money? The rich executive or the single mom with 3 kids? I don't see the single mom sitting back and refusing to shell out every cent they have to take care of the kids because they wanna wait till the economy turns around,they spend to live....


You give Bill gate 100,00 dollars and a bumb(assume he doesnt like being a bumb) on the street the same. Who spends it first?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1237973 - 01/21/03 08:19 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

And who's the smarter one? The bum did everything to get where he is and Bill Gates did everything he did to get where he is.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237975 - 01/21/03 08:20 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

I thought we were talking about stimulating the economy....
Now whose the dumb one?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1237980 - 01/21/03 08:23 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

The richer the company the more jobs are able to made thus stimulating the economy.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1237981 - 01/21/03 08:24 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

You give Bill gate 100,00 dollars and a bumb(assume he doesnt like being a bumb) on the street the same. Who spends it first?



It doesn't matter who spends it first as much as who spends it wisely. Bill Gates' expenditures or investments are more likely to have long lasting positive effects. Bill Gates has been the catalyst for more employment than all the drunkards in history.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (01/21/03 08:25 PM)


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237983 - 01/21/03 08:26 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

The company I work for has set record numbers this year and has just made massive cutbacks to make even more money for the fatbald fuck who owns the place.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1237987 - 01/21/03 08:28 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Maybe your company is loosing business??


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Dilauded]
    #1237992 - 01/21/03 08:31 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Exact opposite. They have said it and I have seen and am part of the recording of it.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1238122 - 01/21/03 11:21 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Yep. Trouble with business is that money is the bottom line. The most important thing is that they get the most return for their dollar spent on production. And that means that the quality of the product is not important, and rarely are their employees. You can see it in utilities that have been privatised and you can see it in the media. You can see massive exploitation in companies who have globalised where the amount of money spent paying Greg Norman to promote the product is equivalent to the amount spent on wages in a year for factory workers in Indonesia where laws and political climate allow very poor working conditions to persist. On balance, capitalism benefits the few. The rest of us are slaves.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1238130 - 01/21/03 11:32 PM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Trouble with business is that money is the bottom line.



The reason to be in business is to make money. That is not a problem.. it is the goal. Try it yourself and see rather than complaining about it. Then if you're a success, give the money away, close the business down and pat yourself on the back.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/21/03 11:33 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1238155 - 01/22/03 12:18 AM (19 years, 11 days ago)

Sorry, i dont consider that success, so that would be a futile exercise. That aside, I really don't see your point.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1238512 - 01/22/03 05:28 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

On balance, capitalism benefits the few. The rest of us are slaves.

Excellent point Eno.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Evolving]
    #1238838 - 01/22/03 08:06 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Bill Gates has been the catalyst for more employment than all the drunkards in history.

If someone had gone up behind Bill Gates in 1970, put a gun to his brainstem and pulled the trigger the world would have gone right ahead without noticing. There would have been just as many jobs in the world today.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1239084 - 01/22/03 09:48 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

There would have been just as many jobs in the world today.


How can you say that with such certainty, neither you nor I know what would happen in that situation.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1239098 - 01/22/03 09:54 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

The most important thing is that they get the most return for their dollar spent on production. And that means that the quality of the product is not important, and rarely are their employees.


This is not that case for a successful business. For a business to become, and stay successful, you must offer a superior product or service at a competitive price. Now I do agree that there are companies that do only care about fattening up the pockets of the executive officers, but usually these companies do not last that long.
Quote:

On balance, capitalism benefits the few. The rest of us are slaves.


But at least you are a slave that has the opportunity to over throw your master. If you had the drive, you could get a college degree, get hired by a good company, work your way up the corporate ladder, and change the benefits for the low employees that you seem to have concern for.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1239352 - 01/22/03 11:18 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)


On balance, capitalism benefits the few. The rest of us are slaves.


How are you a slave if you can decide how, where, and to what extent you want
to participate in the economy? How does having economic freedom make you
a slave?


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1239369 - 01/22/03 11:23 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Oh, well that's some shit then.


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1239378 - 01/22/03 11:28 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

If you had the drive, you could get a college degree, get hired by a good company, work your way up the corporate ladder, and change the benefits for the low employees that you seem to have concern for.


And if you were lucky enough to be born into a rich family and born with enough intelligence to complete it and if you were not sufferering physical handicap or burdoned by mental illness etc. If I did do as you suggest and work for a large company, and had enough influence to change the working conditions of people in it, that would be one company where people had good working conditions. The whole system needs changing for widespread benefits. Often the people at the top of companies get there because they reflect the corporate policies that are in place. Growth is usually one of them, and good working conditions (stuff like working the hours on your contract, working at a comfortable pace, being allowed to take adequate breaks, maternity/paternity and other types of leave, etc) don't make the company money.

Anyway I do have a college degree, but I dont want to work for a large company.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1239413 - 01/22/03 11:43 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

And if you were lucky enough to be born into a rich family and born with enough intelligence...



There are plenty of people of average intelligence, born into poor or middle class circumstances who have made a better life for themselves. It's always easier to make excuses than to take responsibility for yourself, plan, take risks and work hard. Quit whining and make your own way, I did.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1239445 - 01/22/03 11:51 AM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:


And if you were lucky enough to be born into a rich family


My family is not rich, but I'm attending a major University now. In fact, my parents do not spend a dime on my education (tutition, books, etc), on the contrary, they get money back, because I earned scholarships.
Quote:

that would be one company where people had good working conditions.


Change has to start somewhere.
Quote:

and good working conditions (stuff like working the hours on your contract, working at a comfortable pace, being allowed to take adequate breaks, maternity/paternity and other types of leave, etc) don't make the company money.



How do you figure this doesn't make the company money. The better the working conditions, the better the employees perform, the better the service, the more money made. I'll give you an example. After 9/11, most of the airline industy was in the pits, but one company actually reported gains for nearly all, if not all (sorry I forgot exactly) the subsequent quarters after 9/11. The company was Southwest Air, a compay that has a history as an employee friendly environment. Now did they suceed because they are friendly to their employees, its hard to say, but all I'm saying is it hasn't appeared to hurt them.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Dilauded]
    #1239496 - 01/22/03 12:05 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

To be honest from I finacial standpoint they are doing smart thing, BUT it is only for themselves. I don't really get where you associate more money with more employees. If an owner suddenly started coming into more money they wouldn't run out hiring people they would stick it in the bank or expand the business and THEN maybe need to hire more people. Employees are the most costly asset of a business and if a robot or computer could do the job that is what would get the position.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1239545 - 01/22/03 12:18 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

The better the working conditions, the better the employees perform, the better the service, the more money made

Nah, look at globalisation. Brutalising and treating your employees like slaves makes the most profit. Paying people a living wage and ensuring safety conditions all costs money. Money which could go to the boss instead.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1239975 - 01/22/03 02:36 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Al, that is somewhat off topic. I agree with you that slave labor is wrong, but I was speaking of companies in "advanced" countries, with employee regulations....

Besides, as horrible as this will sound, in some instances, working in a sweat shop is the best economic option provided to people in poor countries. Does that make it right? No. But hey, its something we have to live with. And if you disagree with globalization and the exploitation of workers so much, do your part and boycott the companies that partake in those activities.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1239996 - 01/22/03 02:44 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

How are you a slave if you can decide how, where, and to what extent you want
to participate in the economy?



Most poor people are born into poverty and most wealthy people are born wealthy. True, there are some rags-to-riches cases(mostly achieved by selling drugs), and there are, of course, riches-to-rags stories(mostly due to drug and/or alcohol addiction), but this is rarely the case. People don't choose what situation they're born into. Only the exceptionally talented and/or exceptionally lucky can break out of poverty.


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1240320 - 01/22/03 04:39 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

do your part and boycott the companies that partake in those activities.

Yep, that's one way. Political activism and awareness raising are others. It would be nice if the governments of the western nations regulated it some though.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1240510 - 01/22/03 05:49 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

... and most wealthy people are born wealthy



Please define wealthy and provide statistics and their sources to back up your assertion.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (01/22/03 05:50 PM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1240521 - 01/22/03 05:54 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

If you had the drive, you could get a college degree, get hired by a good company, work your way up the corporate ladder, and change the benefits for the low employees that you seem to have concern for.

Actually, that's not exactly true.  Look up the Dodge v. Ford court case.  Ford decided that his company was making more than enough profits, so he doubled the wages of his workers and decreased the price of his Model-T car, even though the demand was already more than his company could supply.  He said he did this because his customers and employees were more important than excessive profits.  One of Ford's major shareholders, the Dodge brothers sued Ford because they claimed Ford's philanthropic policy cut into their dividends.  The court ruled in favor of the Dodge Brothers, and Ford was forced by the courts to reverse his policy so that Ford could increase dividends paid to shareholders.  That ruling has never been overturned.  :tongue:   


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1240565 - 01/22/03 06:12 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Well aren't you Mr SmartyPants. :grin:   


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Evolving]
    #1240582 - 01/22/03 06:18 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

So far, I have found this website. Since I have to get up early tomorrow, I will stop looking for now and continue later.

Equal Economic Opportunity and the Constitution

The founding fathers stated in the Declaration of Independence that every man should be free to pursue ?life, liberty, and happiness? (in early drafts "property" took the place of happiness). This meant that they were trying to ensure equal opportunities for people to earn money in the Declaration of Independence. Unfortunately, they must have forgotten to include this in the Constitution, which includes numerous provisions concerning the political rights and equalities of citizens but nothing concerning economic equality. There is nothing in our Constitution that offers economic aid to the underprivileged; thus, the Constitution is set up in a way that enables the wealthy to stay wealthy for generations at the expense of the lower economic classes. People born poor are likely to remain poor while those born rich are likely to remain rich, but no one seems to care why. Our country is set up with no checks and balances in the economy, so it is no wonder that those with capital will be able to make more money while those without will continue to struggle. So rather than set up a system of economic equality the Constitution sets up a system that perpetuates the cycle of poverty for those born poor. The Constitution seems to do just enough for the middle classes to have a broad base of support but offers little to the poor.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (01/22/03 08:15 PM)


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1240613 - 01/22/03 06:28 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)


People don't choose what situation they're born into.

But they can choose what to do with their lives.


Only the exceptionally talented and/or exceptionally lucky can break out of
poverty.

I don't buy that. If a person takes advantage of the educational opportunities
available to them, they can do whatever they want to do. It is my opinion that
most of the so-called disadvantaged people in America are there because of their
own actions or inactions.

And, the people who are in "poverty" in America live like kings in comparison to
most of the rest of the world.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1240763 - 01/22/03 07:19 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

It's interesting you mention "educational opportunities," because IMO the public education system, at least in some parts of the country, is in need of some serious reform. For one thing, I think there should be a class or classes that prepares people for some of the basic skills you need to know to get ahead in this world, such as doing a job interview, balancing a checkbook, writing a resume, etc. We can't simply expect people to learn these things on their own. If they're born into poverty, chances are their parents won't be able to offer much good advice on this either. I know some schools teach classes like this, but not nearly enough of them do.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1240900 - 01/22/03 08:03 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

I was speaking of companies in "advanced" countries, with employee regulations....

Remember those regulations you mention didn't just magically appear in a gift from the boss's in their "advanced" society. It took brave working people decades of heroic strugle in the face of brutal intimidation and oppression from the companies to get every single one of those "rights". Rights which in the last 20 years have rapidly been dismantled.

working in a sweat shop is the best economic option

Nah, sweatshops are never the best economic option for anyone. There are simply enough desperate people in the world you can get away with exploiting if you have enough money. If the corporations thought they could get away with it in america (and who knows, they just might) they'd start hiring children and paying slave wages. Do you think there arn't enough desperate people in america who'd send their kids to work in a slave labour factory for a few dollars a week instead of sending them to school?

Don't confuse exploiting desperation with the "best economic option". The best economic option for those kids is a decent education. Not working in a factory losing fingers and handling dangerous chemicals with no safety measures for 10 cents a day.


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1240938 - 01/22/03 08:17 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Only the exceptionally talented and/or exceptionally lucky can break out of poverty.

Nonsense. That may be true in a totalitarian state or in some Saharan nations, but it is most certainly untrue in Western societies.

I come from a poor background -- at the time I left home my parents had never had enough money to even own a car -- as a matter of fact, my father bought his first car long after I did. We never even had a television until the last five years I lived at home. I must be one of the few North Americans born in the last half of the Twentieth Century to do without the "boob tube" for most of my formative years.

I am neither exceptionally talented nor exceptionally lucky, but I am no longer poor. Neither are most of the guys I grew up with. Neither are my parents, any longer. How did we do it? Simple.

We started working at minimum wage jobs (we used to call them "Joe Jobs"), spent the first few years sharing accomodations to cut our rent expenses, furnished our homes with milk crate end tables and brick-and-board shelving units, gained job skills and saved our money, then moved on to better jobs, then better jobs still, etc.

I have been everything from a pin-setter in a bowling alley to one step below a vice president in Canada's third largest computer-related company. I have sold clothes, cars, stereos, and computers. I have tended bar, sorted mail on the night shift, assembled electronic components and owned both a clothing boutique and a windsurfing rental business.

If I can do it, almost anyone can. It is true that there are SOME who haven't the ability to rise much beyond the position of janitor or night watchman, but those unfortunates are a lot scarcer than you seem to believe. To say "this is rarely the case," in reference to people making a comfortable life for themselves is incorrect.

pinky



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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1240993 - 01/22/03 08:45 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

silversoul7 quotes from some website:

The founding fathers stated in the Declaration of Independence that every man should be free to pursue ?life, liberty, and happiness? (in early drafts "property" took the place of happiness).

The key word here is "pursue". The Founding Fathers realized that the proper function of civilized government MUST be to recognize and protect every individual's right to take the actions he deems necessary to improve his lot in life. But note that the right to PURSUE is most assuredly NOT equivalent to the right to be GIVEN.

There is nothing in our Constitution that offers economic aid to the underprivileged;

Correct. Why, then, are people so adamant that such aid is a right?

...thus, the Constitution is set up in a way that enables the wealthy to stay wealthy for generations...

Hogwash. There are countless instances of dissolute heirs pissing away family fortunes in a few years. And we've all read stories of lottery winners who became millionaires and blew it all in an amazingly short stretch of time.

... at the expense of the lower economic classes.

More hogwash. How does some Ferrarri-driving, mansion-living, champagne-guzzling, coke-snorting trust-funder prevent me from making my way in the world?

Our country is set up with no checks and balances in the economy...

Was set up. That is certainly no longer the case. There are literally hundreds of thousands of restrictions on what businesses can and cannot do (many of them contradictory), and what are programs such as medicare and welfare if not redistribution of wealth?

so it is no wonder that those with capital will be able to make more money...

Not if they do stupid things with it.

... while those without will continue to struggle.

It requires effort to go from zero to comfortable, true. So what? The fact that some are starting from more than zero doesn't alter the circumstances of the struggle for those who have little to begin with.

So rather than set up a system of economic equality...

No system devised by man can EVER do that. If we were to take all the money from every person in the world, toss it into a giant pot and split it into 6.5 billion equal piles, then hand a pile to each of the Earth's inhabitants, in less than ten years there would be rich and poor once again.

...the Constitution sets up a system that perpetuates the cycle of poverty for those born poor.

The biggest untruth in the whole appalling screed. The Constitution set up the only system in which the poor have a chance to improve their situation... one that guarantees they be left FREE to do whatever they choose (always excepting fuck with others rights to do the same, of course) to improve their financial situation.

pinky


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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1241006 - 01/22/03 08:54 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Alex123 writes:

Nah, sweatshops are never the best economic option for anyone.

Incorrect. For some people in some countries, "sweatshops" literally are the the best alternative of a very limited selection.

The best economic option for those kids is a decent education.

Then why don't their parents send them to school?

Not working in a factory losing fingers and handling dangerous chemicals with no safety measures for 10 cents a day.

We're back to the unsupported ten cents a day claim again are we? Last time you had mentioned this you had been forced to adjust it to ten cents an hour.

pinky


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1241065 - 01/22/03 09:17 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

The better the working conditions, the better the employees perform, the better the service, the more money made

Nah, look at globalisation. Brutalising and treating your employees like slaves makes the most profit. Paying people a living wage and ensuring safety conditions all costs money. Money which could go to the boss instead.




Only in the short run. You run a business unethically, and envetually, in the longrun, the shit will hit the fan.

Furthermore, "sweatshops" are part of almost every industrialized nation's past. Any growing, newling industrialized nation has to deal with some form of child labor. While I do not agree with child labor, I whole-heartedly agree with child work, if infact, it is in the best intrest for the family and the individual at hand. Furthermore, it is up to the individual, and their family, to determine what is best for them. Not you, nor anybody else. You cannot fairly say that the child better belongs in an educational institution when forgone oppourtunity costs include starvation or malnutrition. And education doesn't do a dead eight year old any good.

Businesses will take advantage of situations however. There are unethical people in this world, yes. However one of the better ways to regulate this is through the protection of property, and individual rights. In countries where these things are nonexistant, blame cannot be placed soley on the businesses which opperate there, but on the governing system as well. The protection of such rights, or lack there of, is a major contributing factor. Looking at things only in the past ten, fifteen, or even twenty-five years is hardly a fair evaluation of the situation. Change, and revolution take time. Only after many years of exploitation will citizens rise up and take control.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1241238 - 01/22/03 10:24 PM (19 years, 10 days ago)

It is my opinion that most of the so-called disadvantaged people in America are there because of their own actions or inactions.

I know from my studies there is a complex interaction between environment and personal characteristics which determines behaviour and whether a person is able to be successful in terms of gaining a good education or a good job. Societal factors like racism, classism and sexism can lead to expectations that are communicated to people by indirect (eg body language) and direct means, which become incorporated into those person's self image and influence future behaviour. That indirect messages indicating expectations influence human behaviour has been demonstrated in studies where eg. teachers are told which children in their class will accelerate in their academic achievment over a year (the childrens names are actually chosen at random) and those children do. People have varying levels of optimism versus pessimism - attributions about causes of events are learned from eg. pessimistic or optimistic parents or peers ie good events being due to stable or changeable internal or external characteristics and bad events being due to stable or changeable internal or external characteristics. These beliefs are real in their consequences. People learn to be helpless in certain situations. If on 8 occassions they have tried to get a job and they can't they may think the situation is hopeless, the cause is personal and they wont get a job, they feel hopeless and they don't try. Peoples opportunities to education include eg. the resources that their parents are able to afford and keep at home, and the level of intellectual discussion to which they are exposed which will help determine their grades, self concept in terms of academic ability and later opportunities. Disadvantaged people often have lower self esteem on average and self efficacy.

Cognition can be divided up into controlled processing (willed actions) and automatic (cued by the environment). Much more of our behaviour is automatic than people might expect. (This has to be the case in order to carry out the number of complex behaviours that we do each day. If we had to use the same level of effortful thought to eg drive a car as we did when we were learning, we wouldnt get much done) This is demonstrated in the case of drug addiction where environmental cues associated with drug use trigger the response in an automatic fashion increasingly as the person becomes more dependant. It is also why people find it relatively easy to quit when they move house. Controlled process , on the other hand, which are necessary to overcome habit (automatic), are a function of the frontal lobes. Drinking alcohol damages this part of the brain and so the more alcoholics drink the more they damage the part of the brain that would allow them to give up! This part of the brain has also been shown to be relatively switched off by stress, and in many of the mental disorders including depression, post traumatic stress disorder and schizophrenia - probably the reason they have difficulty controlling illness related thoughts which have become automatic through practice, and why they have difficulty with initiating acton let alone productive action. Interestingly, people who are disadvantaged are more likely to be drug dependant, experience more stress, and more mental illness.

I agree that most of us have the ability to influence our life so that we can have a good education job, but that situational factors can be disabling. Envronmental factors including societal, cultural, social and economic factors can't be separated from individual ones because we dont live in a vacuum. And individual factors can be a bigger obsticle to positive action than they appear on the surface.


Edited by Eno_ (01/22/03 10:38 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Phred]
    #1241724 - 01/23/03 05:43 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Incorrect. For some people in some countries, "sweatshops" literally are the the best alternative of a very limited selection.

Nope. If sweatshops ended tomorrow i can assure you they would be missed only by the boss's running them. Everyone else would be free to create real wealth and opportunity once the short-term sweatshop blight was removed. Can you think of anything that people could be working on in third world countries that would be of more benefit to them than making trainers for americans? How about building roads? schools? houses? With a democratic government instead of a western backed corrupt thug things would improve rapidly.

Then why don't their parents send them to school?

Because the government is more interested in providing Nike with slaves? In return for enormous back-handers?

We're back to the unsupported ten cents a day claim again are we?

Ok pink - western sweatshops are little peice of heaven where everyone is always happy and if a 10 year old complains he didn't get paid for a month an immediate investigation is launched on his behalf. Happy now?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1242016 - 01/23/03 07:36 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)


It's interesting you mention "educational opportunities," because IMO the public
education system, at least in some parts of the country, is in need of some
serious reform.

I definately agree with you that reform in public education is needed.

Inner city schools aren't shitty because of lack of funds. They are shitty because
there is no practically no parental participation, and most of the kids don't give a
fuck about anything. We need to make it so that the kids who want to learn
have a chance to.

However, I still think that even with a disadvantaged background, a person is
capable of doing anything they want, if only they put forth the initiative and effort.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242028 - 01/23/03 07:39 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)


Nope. If sweatshops ended tomorrow i can assure you they would be missed only by the boss's running them. Everyone else would be free to create real wealth and opportunity once the short-term sweatshop blight was removed.


Alex, come on, you're a bright person. If the oppourtunity was there to be creating wealth in the first place, then the workers would be doing so. However, the fact remains that they are not there. It is not like there are jobs paying $4.00 an hour, for unskilled labor, and yet the laborers choose to go work for $0.45 an hour.

Can you think of anything that people could be working on in third world countries that would be of more benefit to them than making trainers for americans? How about building roads? schools? houses? With a democratic government instead of a western backed corrupt thug things would improve rapidly.

And who is responsible for establishing a government?

Because the government is more interested in providing Nike with slaves? In return for enormous back-handers?

Care to share any proof, or is this just a rediculous theory?

Ok pink - western sweatshops are little peice of heaven where everyone is always happy and if a 10 year old complains he didn't get paid for a month an immediate investigation is launched on his behalf. Happy now?

You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage, yet, you go on posting it. Nobody has ever said the conditions inside sweatshops are the envy of every country around the world. However, the fact remnains that we have been over this multiple times.

The per capita GDP for Indonesia, converted to US dollars, and adjusted for the Purchasing Power Parity, is $2800.00 (Source The World Fact Book, 2000).

18 hours per day: $.45 * 18 = $8.1 dollars per day
Multiplied by 7 days per week: $8.1 * 7 = $56.7
Multiplied by 52 weeks per year: $56.7 * 52 = $2948.40

So, an unskilled laborer, not including taxes, working 18 hours per day, 52 weeks per year, makes aprx $148.40 more than the per capita GDP. You know what a school teacher makes in Indonesia? They make $1537.00 (Source: Prices and Earnings Around the Globe -2000 Edt.)

So an unskilled laborer makes nearly double the salary of that of an educated school teacher.  :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: 


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1242075 - 01/23/03 07:54 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)


I know from my studies there is a complex interaction between environment and
personal characteristics which determines behaviour and whether a person is
able to be successful in terms of gaining a good education or a good job.

There is no doubt that a person's environment, and the ideas and attitudes that
constitute it, can affect them.

But, I find that liberals often use these arguments to cover up for the failures of
poor people. They are so obsessed with appearing to be tolerant and concerned
about the underdog, that they make up a million excuses to explain any failings of
"disadvantaged people".

There comes a time when a person has to realize what they want in life, and that
they are going to have to work to get it. If they are a slave to ideas that
tell them "what they should be", then they are stupid and servile, and therefore
deserve nothing.

RandalFlagg


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242209 - 01/23/03 08:47 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

If the oppourtunity was there to be creating wealth in the first place

Do you think america would be economically successful if for the last 200 years Britain had controlled the government and utilised the american people as slaves?

And who is responsible for establishing a government?

Western backing helps an awful lot. Allende was interested in improving the lives of the chilean people, pinochet was interested in improving american business profits. One got shot, the other got to torture and maim to his hearts content for 20 years with the full backing of the US. You wanna take a wild guess at which one?

Care to share any proof, or is this just a rediculous theory?

You think guys like Suharto do anything for anyone without being looked after? Maybe they do. Maybe John Giotti did too.

You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage

You're right. I overestimated. It's 6 cents an hour.

Summary: Seventeen year old women are forced to work 9 to 10 hours a day, seven days a week, earning as little as six cents an hour in the Keyhinge factory in Vietnam making the popular giveaway promotional toys, many of which are Disney characters, for McDonald's Happy Meals. After working a 70 hour week, some of the teenage women take home a salary of only $4.20! In February, 200 workers fell ill, 25 collapsed and three were hospitalized as a result of chemical exposure.

Background: Included in the Happy Meals sold at McDonalds are small toys based on characters from Disney films. According to McDonald's senior vice president Brad Ball, the Happy Meals characters from the "101 Dalmations" movie were the most successful in McDonald's history. Ball adds, "As we embark on our new global alliance, we anticipate ten great years of unbeatable family fun as customers enjoy 'the magic of Disney' only at McDonald's" (PR Newswire Associates, March 19, 1997).

Located in Da Nang City, Vietnam, the Keyhinge Toys Co. Factory employs approximately 1,000 people, 90 percent of whom are young women 17 to 20 years old. Overtime is mandatory: shifts of 9 to 10 hours a day, seven days a week. Wage rates average between six cents and eight cents an hour--well below subsistence levels. Overcome by fatigue and poor ventilation in late February, 200 women fell ill, 25 collapsed and three were hospitalized as a result of exposure to acetone. Acute or prolonged exposure to acetone, a chemical solvent, can cause dizziness, unconsciousness, damage to the liver and kidneys and chronic eye, nose, throat and skin irritation.

All appeals from local human and labor rights groups continue to be rejected by Keyhinge management which refuses to improve the ventilation system in the factory or remedy other unsafe working conditions. Along with demanding forced overtime, Keyhinge management has not made legally mandated payments for health insurance coverage for its employees, who now receive no compensation for injury or sickness.

Many of the young women at the Keyhinge factory making McDonald's/Disney toys earn just 60 cents after a 10 hour shift. The most basic meal in Vietnam--rice, vegetables, and tofu--costs 70 cents. Three meals would cost $2.10. Wages do not even cover 20 per cent of the daily food and travel costs for a single worker, let alone her family.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54/103.html



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242216 - 01/23/03 08:49 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)


You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage, yet, you go on posting it.

Another worker, at the Barons International factory, earned a base wage of only 10 cents an hour and a fully-loaded wage including overtime, of only 14 cents an hour. At Istmo Textil, one worker's pay stub reflected a base wage of 10 cents an hour and total earnings of $13.78 for a 67 hour work week bringing her wage to less than 21 cents an hour.

http://www.tao.ca/~resist/womeninglobalcapitalism.html


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242222 - 01/23/03 08:52 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)


You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage, yet, you go on posting it

The average junior operator's wage at Lim's is just 12 cents an hour. Helpers, typically young teenage girls who supply the assembly lines with fabric and then clean the finished garments by cutting off loose threads, are paid only 8 cents an hour.

http://publici.ucimc.org/nov2001/112001_4.htm


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242229 - 01/23/03 08:54 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)


You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage, yet, you go on posting it.

(HAITI INFO) PORT-AU-PRINCE, Apr. 17 - At least one assembly factory has figured out a new way to underpay its already exploited workers who are supposed to receive 36 gourdes (about US$2.18) per day.

Felix Abraham of Seamfast Manufacturing, which sews for K-mart and J.C. Penny, has been paying some workers one-third minimum wage, about 10 gourdes for eight hours (64 U.S. cents/day or 8 cents/hour).

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/309.html



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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242502 - 01/23/03 10:41 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Do you think america would be economically successful if for the last 200 years Britain had controlled the government and utilised the american people as slaves?

Actually, durring the period when Brittan had control over the colonies, America did very well economically. But no, over 200 years I doubt America would have been as sucsessful. Then again, you can't play the 'if game' so it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

Western backing helps an awful lot.
Agreed. However, whose shoulders does it rest ultimately upon?

As far as your claims, I will conceed that there are some sweatshops out there that do pay poor wages. However, your articles which you presented were a bit out of date, but that is fine.

But, you cannot strictly convert the wages which one receives, into American currency. In doing so, you massivly skew the numbers, which I am sure is fine by you because it only goes to support your cause further.

Take a look at your first example. I'm even going to be kind, by using the 6 cents, which is noted as "as little as", which you constrew into just 6 cents per hour.

$.06 * 10 = $.60 per day.
$.60 * 7 = $4.20 a week.
$4.20 * 52 = $218.40 per year.

In 1997, according to the World Bank, the per capita GNI (formerly GNP) for Vietnam was $320. http://www.worldbank.org.vn/wbivn/cas/an25.htm

So the somebody making a paltry $218.00 a year, makes roughly 68% of the per capita GNI.

Now since somebody was making "as little as", lets figure out wages and percentages of GNP up to 10 cents per hour.

52(7(.07*10)) = 254.8 = 79% of GNP
52(7(.08*10)) = 291.2 = 91% of GNP
52(7(.09*10)) = 327.6 = 102% of GNP
52(7(.10*10)) = 364.0 = 113% of GNP

Looks like the unskilled labor is getting payed pretty well to me.

Compare thos numbers to America. I believe the per capita GNI was $33,500 for 2001.Somebody making minimum wage makes aproximately $12,000. That is 35.8% of the per capita GNI. Why aren't you sticking up for the impoverished workers here?

The fact is you cannot jump up and down and scream about the wages without having a bench mark to compare them to. As Eisnstein said, "everything is relative".


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242645 - 01/23/03 12:10 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

However, your articles which you presented were a bit out of date, but that is fine.

You got any evidence it hasn't got even worse?

I'm even going to be kind, by using the 6 cents, which is noted as "as little as", which you constrew into just 6 cents per hour.

It took me about 10 seconds to find those cases. There were plenty more. 6 cents an hour isn't out of the ordinary. And you can bet for every case that makes the news there are far, far more that no-one ever hears about.

Looks like the unskilled labor is getting payed pretty well to me.

You've convinced me. 17 year olds collapsing from toxic poisoning and getting paid 6 cents an hour for the privilege? They've got it made.

Phew. And i thought there was a problem.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242755 - 01/23/03 12:49 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

and getting paid 6 cents an hour for the privilege?


If the average wage for the entire workforce is 8 cents an hour, than yes 6 cents an hour for unskilled labor is a privilige.
Quote:

17 year olds collapsing from toxic poisoning


It is horrible, but some jobs have risks.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242861 - 01/23/03 01:25 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

I've got a word that can sum this up. BALANCE.

And yea those jobs have risks, don't all jobs have certain risks? Doctors risk getting stuck with a needle that could have a terrible disease. Police risk getting killed. Construction workers. Coal miners. I could go on forever. SO WHAT. Do you want to save every life that you can? I think shit like aids and cancer and so on are fucking terrible. They kill so many lives that its sad that we can't save them. But on another note, their death is making room for one more person. Smoking cigs is somewhat similar. It'll kill you sooner or later. Same with drugs. I used to think drugs were awsome, I couldn't stop thinkin bout em. I used to blaze up everyday before school with the notion "This won't affect my school work" but it did. Along with other drugs too. Made me lazy less athletic than I used to be. All in all, I could live without drugs and wish I never started. I was stupid. But that's besides the matter. Main point of what I'm trying to say with this death shit is that there needs to be death. Yes its terrible that the 17 yr old dies of toxic poisoning and the ones who get 10 cents. Its sad, and its too bad. Its life and in different places that's the way the ball bounces.

Dilauded


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1243077 - 01/23/03 02:30 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

There comes a time when a person has to realize what they want in life, and that they are going to have to work to get it. If they are a slave to ideas that tell them "what they should be", then they are stupid and servile, and therefore deserve nothing.

If you cant understand something more subtle like drug addiction or the 'isms' then what about something like Huntington's disease or early stroke. With your level of empathy for human suffering you might be the next Hitler.


Edited by Eno_ (01/23/03 02:31 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1243087 - 01/23/03 02:35 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Hmm. I just heard of a study on the radio where they demonstrated that kids from single parent families are twice as likely to commit suicide, more likley to suffer depression and to become dependant on drugs and probably due to financial hardship and possibly parental absence. But those environmental factors wouldnt contribute would they, Randall, it would be because they are servile and stupid.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1243327 - 01/23/03 04:04 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)


If you cant understand something more subtle like drug addiction or the 'isms' then what about something like Huntington's disease or early stroke.

I can understand something like drug addiction(there is ample treatment available
out there for people by the way).

My statement was in reference to capable people who have the ability to put
themselves whereever they want to be, if only they put forth the effort. When it
comes to a physical or mental handicap that the person cannot help, that is a
different story.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1243359 - 01/23/03 04:14 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)


Hmm. I just heard of a study on the radio where they demonstrated that kids from single parent families are twice as likely to commit suicide, more likley to suffer depression and to become dependant on drugs and probably due to financial hardship and possibly parental absence. But those environmental factors wouldnt contribute would they, Randall, it would be because they are servile and stupid

Inequality and bad circumstances are things that occur in life. That is how it
is and always will be. One must learn to live with the hand that they have been
dealt.

As I said before, it is up to each capable individual to decide what they want,
where they want to be in life, and what they will have to do to get it.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1243389 - 01/23/03 04:21 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Karma says Cancers knocking on your door :smirk:


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1243394 - 01/23/03 04:25 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)


Karma says Cancers knocking on your door

Because I stress the concepts of personal responsibility and actually earning
what you have?


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

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Posts: 6,487
Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1243495 - 01/23/03 04:50 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

One must learn to live with the hand that they have been
dealt.





It's the "tough luck" attitude reguarding people who get diseases beyond their control. I say let's help these people and not say "sucks to be you".


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1243756 - 01/23/03 06:14 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

You got any evidence it hasn't got even worse?
The question is, do you? You are the one jumping up and down, screaming bloody murder. Why don't you find the evidence. If it is as bad as you think, surely you can find some information concerning wages in the "sweatshops", that is a little more recent.

It took me about 10 seconds to find those cases. There were plenty more. 6 cents an hour isn't out of the ordinary. And you can bet for every case that makes the news there are far, far more that no-one ever hears about.

Well then you should have plenty more information to share with everybody. Perhaps you could try and find some with a lower wage. And you can bet that for every case that makes the news about a bad company, there are far, far more good companies that no one ever hears about.

You've convinced me. 17 year olds collapsing from toxic poisoning and getting paid 6 cents an hour for the privilege? They've got it made.

Boo hoo, bad condidtions. There are plenty of jobs spanning the globe that are dangerous, what is your point? Yes the conditions suck. Perhaps you would like to take a look at the working conditions of Vietnam as a whole? I'll say this, there is no OSHA.

And again, you still harp on this "6 cents an hour". It is completely irrelevant when converted to American dollars. I've proven that with data. I am sorry you are unable to comprehend that they are being paid a fair wage, which is very comparable with other wages in the country. You cannot just strictly convert their wage into American currency. You really seem unable to grasp this concept. Why?


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineGoBlue!
Tool Rules - DBK

Registered: 10/27/02
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Loc: Ann Arbor, MI
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1243815 - 01/23/03 06:35 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

"My statement was in reference to capable people who have the ability to put
themselves whereever they want to be, if only they put forth the effort. When it
comes to a physical or mental handicap that the person cannot help, that is a
different story."


Liberals agree with you.


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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 User Gallery

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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1244120 - 01/23/03 08:40 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

However, I still think that even with a disadvantaged background, a person is
capable of doing anything they want, if only they put forth the initiative and effort.



I'm taking a Sociology class this semester, where we're going to learn, among other things, about how people's environment and circumstances affect the decisions they make. I look forward to sharing the insights I'm sure to learn in that class.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (01/23/03 08:42 PM)


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1244126 - 01/23/03 08:43 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

I look forward to reading them.


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