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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1241065 - 01/22/03 09:17 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The better the working conditions, the better the employees perform, the better the service, the more money made

Nah, look at globalisation. Brutalising and treating your employees like slaves makes the most profit. Paying people a living wage and ensuring safety conditions all costs money. Money which could go to the boss instead.




Only in the short run. You run a business unethically, and envetually, in the longrun, the shit will hit the fan.

Furthermore, "sweatshops" are part of almost every industrialized nation's past. Any growing, newling industrialized nation has to deal with some form of child labor. While I do not agree with child labor, I whole-heartedly agree with child work, if infact, it is in the best intrest for the family and the individual at hand. Furthermore, it is up to the individual, and their family, to determine what is best for them. Not you, nor anybody else. You cannot fairly say that the child better belongs in an educational institution when forgone oppourtunity costs include starvation or malnutrition. And education doesn't do a dead eight year old any good.

Businesses will take advantage of situations however. There are unethical people in this world, yes. However one of the better ways to regulate this is through the protection of property, and individual rights. In countries where these things are nonexistant, blame cannot be placed soley on the businesses which opperate there, but on the governing system as well. The protection of such rights, or lack there of, is a major contributing factor. Looking at things only in the past ten, fifteen, or even twenty-five years is hardly a fair evaluation of the situation. Change, and revolution take time. Only after many years of exploitation will citizens rise up and take control.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1241238 - 01/22/03 10:24 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

It is my opinion that most of the so-called disadvantaged people in America are there because of their own actions or inactions.

I know from my studies there is a complex interaction between environment and personal characteristics which determines behaviour and whether a person is able to be successful in terms of gaining a good education or a good job. Societal factors like racism, classism and sexism can lead to expectations that are communicated to people by indirect (eg body language) and direct means, which become incorporated into those person's self image and influence future behaviour. That indirect messages indicating expectations influence human behaviour has been demonstrated in studies where eg. teachers are told which children in their class will accelerate in their academic achievment over a year (the childrens names are actually chosen at random) and those children do. People have varying levels of optimism versus pessimism - attributions about causes of events are learned from eg. pessimistic or optimistic parents or peers ie good events being due to stable or changeable internal or external characteristics and bad events being due to stable or changeable internal or external characteristics. These beliefs are real in their consequences. People learn to be helpless in certain situations. If on 8 occassions they have tried to get a job and they can't they may think the situation is hopeless, the cause is personal and they wont get a job, they feel hopeless and they don't try. Peoples opportunities to education include eg. the resources that their parents are able to afford and keep at home, and the level of intellectual discussion to which they are exposed which will help determine their grades, self concept in terms of academic ability and later opportunities. Disadvantaged people often have lower self esteem on average and self efficacy.

Cognition can be divided up into controlled processing (willed actions) and automatic (cued by the environment). Much more of our behaviour is automatic than people might expect. (This has to be the case in order to carry out the number of complex behaviours that we do each day. If we had to use the same level of effortful thought to eg drive a car as we did when we were learning, we wouldnt get much done) This is demonstrated in the case of drug addiction where environmental cues associated with drug use trigger the response in an automatic fashion increasingly as the person becomes more dependant. It is also why people find it relatively easy to quit when they move house. Controlled process , on the other hand, which are necessary to overcome habit (automatic), are a function of the frontal lobes. Drinking alcohol damages this part of the brain and so the more alcoholics drink the more they damage the part of the brain that would allow them to give up! This part of the brain has also been shown to be relatively switched off by stress, and in many of the mental disorders including depression, post traumatic stress disorder and schizophrenia - probably the reason they have difficulty controlling illness related thoughts which have become automatic through practice, and why they have difficulty with initiating acton let alone productive action. Interestingly, people who are disadvantaged are more likely to be drug dependant, experience more stress, and more mental illness.

I agree that most of us have the ability to influence our life so that we can have a good education job, but that situational factors can be disabling. Envronmental factors including societal, cultural, social and economic factors can't be separated from individual ones because we dont live in a vacuum. And individual factors can be a bigger obsticle to positive action than they appear on the surface.


Edited by Eno_ (01/22/03 10:38 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Phred]
    #1241724 - 01/23/03 05:43 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Incorrect. For some people in some countries, "sweatshops" literally are the the best alternative of a very limited selection.

Nope. If sweatshops ended tomorrow i can assure you they would be missed only by the boss's running them. Everyone else would be free to create real wealth and opportunity once the short-term sweatshop blight was removed. Can you think of anything that people could be working on in third world countries that would be of more benefit to them than making trainers for americans? How about building roads? schools? houses? With a democratic government instead of a western backed corrupt thug things would improve rapidly.

Then why don't their parents send them to school?

Because the government is more interested in providing Nike with slaves? In return for enormous back-handers?

We're back to the unsupported ten cents a day claim again are we?

Ok pink - western sweatshops are little peice of heaven where everyone is always happy and if a 10 year old complains he didn't get paid for a month an immediate investigation is launched on his behalf. Happy now?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1242016 - 01/23/03 07:36 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)


It's interesting you mention "educational opportunities," because IMO the public
education system, at least in some parts of the country, is in need of some
serious reform.

I definately agree with you that reform in public education is needed.

Inner city schools aren't shitty because of lack of funds. They are shitty because
there is no practically no parental participation, and most of the kids don't give a
fuck about anything. We need to make it so that the kids who want to learn
have a chance to.

However, I still think that even with a disadvantaged background, a person is
capable of doing anything they want, if only they put forth the initiative and effort.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242028 - 01/23/03 07:39 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)


Nope. If sweatshops ended tomorrow i can assure you they would be missed only by the boss's running them. Everyone else would be free to create real wealth and opportunity once the short-term sweatshop blight was removed.


Alex, come on, you're a bright person. If the oppourtunity was there to be creating wealth in the first place, then the workers would be doing so. However, the fact remains that they are not there. It is not like there are jobs paying $4.00 an hour, for unskilled labor, and yet the laborers choose to go work for $0.45 an hour.

Can you think of anything that people could be working on in third world countries that would be of more benefit to them than making trainers for americans? How about building roads? schools? houses? With a democratic government instead of a western backed corrupt thug things would improve rapidly.

And who is responsible for establishing a government?

Because the government is more interested in providing Nike with slaves? In return for enormous back-handers?

Care to share any proof, or is this just a rediculous theory?

Ok pink - western sweatshops are little peice of heaven where everyone is always happy and if a 10 year old complains he didn't get paid for a month an immediate investigation is launched on his behalf. Happy now?

You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage, yet, you go on posting it. Nobody has ever said the conditions inside sweatshops are the envy of every country around the world. However, the fact remnains that we have been over this multiple times.

The per capita GDP for Indonesia, converted to US dollars, and adjusted for the Purchasing Power Parity, is $2800.00 (Source The World Fact Book, 2000).

18 hours per day: $.45 * 18 = $8.1 dollars per day
Multiplied by 7 days per week: $8.1 * 7 = $56.7
Multiplied by 52 weeks per year: $56.7 * 52 = $2948.40

So, an unskilled laborer, not including taxes, working 18 hours per day, 52 weeks per year, makes aprx $148.40 more than the per capita GDP. You know what a school teacher makes in Indonesia? They make $1537.00 (Source: Prices and Earnings Around the Globe -2000 Edt.)

So an unskilled laborer makes nearly double the salary of that of an educated school teacher.  :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: 


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1242075 - 01/23/03 07:54 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)


I know from my studies there is a complex interaction between environment and
personal characteristics which determines behaviour and whether a person is
able to be successful in terms of gaining a good education or a good job.

There is no doubt that a person's environment, and the ideas and attitudes that
constitute it, can affect them.

But, I find that liberals often use these arguments to cover up for the failures of
poor people. They are so obsessed with appearing to be tolerant and concerned
about the underdog, that they make up a million excuses to explain any failings of
"disadvantaged people".

There comes a time when a person has to realize what they want in life, and that
they are going to have to work to get it. If they are a slave to ideas that
tell them "what they should be", then they are stupid and servile, and therefore
deserve nothing.

RandalFlagg


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242209 - 01/23/03 08:47 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

If the oppourtunity was there to be creating wealth in the first place

Do you think america would be economically successful if for the last 200 years Britain had controlled the government and utilised the american people as slaves?

And who is responsible for establishing a government?

Western backing helps an awful lot. Allende was interested in improving the lives of the chilean people, pinochet was interested in improving american business profits. One got shot, the other got to torture and maim to his hearts content for 20 years with the full backing of the US. You wanna take a wild guess at which one?

Care to share any proof, or is this just a rediculous theory?

You think guys like Suharto do anything for anyone without being looked after? Maybe they do. Maybe John Giotti did too.

You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage

You're right. I overestimated. It's 6 cents an hour.

Summary: Seventeen year old women are forced to work 9 to 10 hours a day, seven days a week, earning as little as six cents an hour in the Keyhinge factory in Vietnam making the popular giveaway promotional toys, many of which are Disney characters, for McDonald's Happy Meals. After working a 70 hour week, some of the teenage women take home a salary of only $4.20! In February, 200 workers fell ill, 25 collapsed and three were hospitalized as a result of chemical exposure.

Background: Included in the Happy Meals sold at McDonalds are small toys based on characters from Disney films. According to McDonald's senior vice president Brad Ball, the Happy Meals characters from the "101 Dalmations" movie were the most successful in McDonald's history. Ball adds, "As we embark on our new global alliance, we anticipate ten great years of unbeatable family fun as customers enjoy 'the magic of Disney' only at McDonald's" (PR Newswire Associates, March 19, 1997).

Located in Da Nang City, Vietnam, the Keyhinge Toys Co. Factory employs approximately 1,000 people, 90 percent of whom are young women 17 to 20 years old. Overtime is mandatory: shifts of 9 to 10 hours a day, seven days a week. Wage rates average between six cents and eight cents an hour--well below subsistence levels. Overcome by fatigue and poor ventilation in late February, 200 women fell ill, 25 collapsed and three were hospitalized as a result of exposure to acetone. Acute or prolonged exposure to acetone, a chemical solvent, can cause dizziness, unconsciousness, damage to the liver and kidneys and chronic eye, nose, throat and skin irritation.

All appeals from local human and labor rights groups continue to be rejected by Keyhinge management which refuses to improve the ventilation system in the factory or remedy other unsafe working conditions. Along with demanding forced overtime, Keyhinge management has not made legally mandated payments for health insurance coverage for its employees, who now receive no compensation for injury or sickness.

Many of the young women at the Keyhinge factory making McDonald's/Disney toys earn just 60 cents after a 10 hour shift. The most basic meal in Vietnam--rice, vegetables, and tofu--costs 70 cents. Three meals would cost $2.10. Wages do not even cover 20 per cent of the daily food and travel costs for a single worker, let alone her family.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/54/103.html



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242216 - 01/23/03 08:49 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)


You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage, yet, you go on posting it.

Another worker, at the Barons International factory, earned a base wage of only 10 cents an hour and a fully-loaded wage including overtime, of only 14 cents an hour. At Istmo Textil, one worker's pay stub reflected a base wage of 10 cents an hour and total earnings of $13.78 for a 67 hour work week bringing her wage to less than 21 cents an hour.

http://www.tao.ca/~resist/womeninglobalcapitalism.html


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242222 - 01/23/03 08:52 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)


You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage, yet, you go on posting it

The average junior operator's wage at Lim's is just 12 cents an hour. Helpers, typically young teenage girls who supply the assembly lines with fabric and then clean the finished garments by cutting off loose threads, are paid only 8 cents an hour.

http://publici.ucimc.org/nov2001/112001_4.htm


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242229 - 01/23/03 08:54 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)


You have never been able to substantiate your claim of a ten cents per hour wage, yet, you go on posting it.

(HAITI INFO) PORT-AU-PRINCE, Apr. 17 - At least one assembly factory has figured out a new way to underpay its already exploited workers who are supposed to receive 36 gourdes (about US$2.18) per day.

Felix Abraham of Seamfast Manufacturing, which sews for K-mart and J.C. Penny, has been paying some workers one-third minimum wage, about 10 gourdes for eight hours (64 U.S. cents/day or 8 cents/hour).

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/309.html



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242502 - 01/23/03 10:41 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Do you think america would be economically successful if for the last 200 years Britain had controlled the government and utilised the american people as slaves?

Actually, durring the period when Brittan had control over the colonies, America did very well economically. But no, over 200 years I doubt America would have been as sucsessful. Then again, you can't play the 'if game' so it doesn't really matter one way or the other.

Western backing helps an awful lot.
Agreed. However, whose shoulders does it rest ultimately upon?

As far as your claims, I will conceed that there are some sweatshops out there that do pay poor wages. However, your articles which you presented were a bit out of date, but that is fine.

But, you cannot strictly convert the wages which one receives, into American currency. In doing so, you massivly skew the numbers, which I am sure is fine by you because it only goes to support your cause further.

Take a look at your first example. I'm even going to be kind, by using the 6 cents, which is noted as "as little as", which you constrew into just 6 cents per hour.

$.06 * 10 = $.60 per day.
$.60 * 7 = $4.20 a week.
$4.20 * 52 = $218.40 per year.

In 1997, according to the World Bank, the per capita GNI (formerly GNP) for Vietnam was $320. http://www.worldbank.org.vn/wbivn/cas/an25.htm

So the somebody making a paltry $218.00 a year, makes roughly 68% of the per capita GNI.

Now since somebody was making "as little as", lets figure out wages and percentages of GNP up to 10 cents per hour.

52(7(.07*10)) = 254.8 = 79% of GNP
52(7(.08*10)) = 291.2 = 91% of GNP
52(7(.09*10)) = 327.6 = 102% of GNP
52(7(.10*10)) = 364.0 = 113% of GNP

Looks like the unskilled labor is getting payed pretty well to me.

Compare thos numbers to America. I believe the per capita GNI was $33,500 for 2001.Somebody making minimum wage makes aproximately $12,000. That is 35.8% of the per capita GNI. Why aren't you sticking up for the impoverished workers here?

The fact is you cannot jump up and down and scream about the wages without having a bench mark to compare them to. As Eisnstein said, "everything is relative".


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1242645 - 01/23/03 12:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

However, your articles which you presented were a bit out of date, but that is fine.

You got any evidence it hasn't got even worse?

I'm even going to be kind, by using the 6 cents, which is noted as "as little as", which you constrew into just 6 cents per hour.

It took me about 10 seconds to find those cases. There were plenty more. 6 cents an hour isn't out of the ordinary. And you can bet for every case that makes the news there are far, far more that no-one ever hears about.

Looks like the unskilled labor is getting payed pretty well to me.

You've convinced me. 17 year olds collapsing from toxic poisoning and getting paid 6 cents an hour for the privilege? They've got it made.

Phew. And i thought there was a problem.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242755 - 01/23/03 12:49 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

and getting paid 6 cents an hour for the privilege?


If the average wage for the entire workforce is 8 cents an hour, than yes 6 cents an hour for unskilled labor is a privilige.
Quote:

17 year olds collapsing from toxic poisoning


It is horrible, but some jobs have risks.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1242861 - 01/23/03 01:25 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I've got a word that can sum this up. BALANCE.

And yea those jobs have risks, don't all jobs have certain risks? Doctors risk getting stuck with a needle that could have a terrible disease. Police risk getting killed. Construction workers. Coal miners. I could go on forever. SO WHAT. Do you want to save every life that you can? I think shit like aids and cancer and so on are fucking terrible. They kill so many lives that its sad that we can't save them. But on another note, their death is making room for one more person. Smoking cigs is somewhat similar. It'll kill you sooner or later. Same with drugs. I used to think drugs were awsome, I couldn't stop thinkin bout em. I used to blaze up everyday before school with the notion "This won't affect my school work" but it did. Along with other drugs too. Made me lazy less athletic than I used to be. All in all, I could live without drugs and wish I never started. I was stupid. But that's besides the matter. Main point of what I'm trying to say with this death shit is that there needs to be death. Yes its terrible that the 17 yr old dies of toxic poisoning and the ones who get 10 cents. Its sad, and its too bad. Its life and in different places that's the way the ball bounces.

Dilauded


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1243077 - 01/23/03 02:30 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

There comes a time when a person has to realize what they want in life, and that they are going to have to work to get it. If they are a slave to ideas that tell them "what they should be", then they are stupid and servile, and therefore deserve nothing.

If you cant understand something more subtle like drug addiction or the 'isms' then what about something like Huntington's disease or early stroke. With your level of empathy for human suffering you might be the next Hitler.


Edited by Eno_ (01/23/03 02:31 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1243087 - 01/23/03 02:35 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Hmm. I just heard of a study on the radio where they demonstrated that kids from single parent families are twice as likely to commit suicide, more likley to suffer depression and to become dependant on drugs and probably due to financial hardship and possibly parental absence. But those environmental factors wouldnt contribute would they, Randall, it would be because they are servile and stupid.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1243327 - 01/23/03 04:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)


If you cant understand something more subtle like drug addiction or the 'isms' then what about something like Huntington's disease or early stroke.

I can understand something like drug addiction(there is ample treatment available
out there for people by the way).

My statement was in reference to capable people who have the ability to put
themselves whereever they want to be, if only they put forth the effort. When it
comes to a physical or mental handicap that the person cannot help, that is a
different story.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1243359 - 01/23/03 04:14 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)


Hmm. I just heard of a study on the radio where they demonstrated that kids from single parent families are twice as likely to commit suicide, more likley to suffer depression and to become dependant on drugs and probably due to financial hardship and possibly parental absence. But those environmental factors wouldnt contribute would they, Randall, it would be because they are servile and stupid

Inequality and bad circumstances are things that occur in life. That is how it
is and always will be. One must learn to live with the hand that they have been
dealt.

As I said before, it is up to each capable individual to decide what they want,
where they want to be in life, and what they will have to do to get it.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1243389 - 01/23/03 04:21 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Karma says Cancers knocking on your door :smirk:


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1243394 - 01/23/03 04:25 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)


Karma says Cancers knocking on your door

Because I stress the concepts of personal responsibility and actually earning
what you have?


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