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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1239352 - 01/22/03 11:18 AM (19 years, 7 days ago)


On balance, capitalism benefits the few. The rest of us are slaves.


How are you a slave if you can decide how, where, and to what extent you want
to participate in the economy? How does having economic freedom make you
a slave?


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OfflineDilauded
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1239369 - 01/22/03 11:23 AM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Oh, well that's some shit then.


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1239378 - 01/22/03 11:28 AM (19 years, 7 days ago)

If you had the drive, you could get a college degree, get hired by a good company, work your way up the corporate ladder, and change the benefits for the low employees that you seem to have concern for.


And if you were lucky enough to be born into a rich family and born with enough intelligence to complete it and if you were not sufferering physical handicap or burdoned by mental illness etc. If I did do as you suggest and work for a large company, and had enough influence to change the working conditions of people in it, that would be one company where people had good working conditions. The whole system needs changing for widespread benefits. Often the people at the top of companies get there because they reflect the corporate policies that are in place. Growth is usually one of them, and good working conditions (stuff like working the hours on your contract, working at a comfortable pace, being allowed to take adequate breaks, maternity/paternity and other types of leave, etc) don't make the company money.

Anyway I do have a college degree, but I dont want to work for a large company.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1239413 - 01/22/03 11:43 AM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

And if you were lucky enough to be born into a rich family and born with enough intelligence...



There are plenty of people of average intelligence, born into poor or middle class circumstances who have made a better life for themselves. It's always easier to make excuses than to take responsibility for yourself, plan, take risks and work hard. Quit whining and make your own way, I did.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: ]
    #1239445 - 01/22/03 11:51 AM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:


And if you were lucky enough to be born into a rich family


My family is not rich, but I'm attending a major University now. In fact, my parents do not spend a dime on my education (tutition, books, etc), on the contrary, they get money back, because I earned scholarships.
Quote:

that would be one company where people had good working conditions.


Change has to start somewhere.
Quote:

and good working conditions (stuff like working the hours on your contract, working at a comfortable pace, being allowed to take adequate breaks, maternity/paternity and other types of leave, etc) don't make the company money.



How do you figure this doesn't make the company money. The better the working conditions, the better the employees perform, the better the service, the more money made. I'll give you an example. After 9/11, most of the airline industy was in the pits, but one company actually reported gains for nearly all, if not all (sorry I forgot exactly) the subsequent quarters after 9/11. The company was Southwest Air, a compay that has a history as an employee friendly environment. Now did they suceed because they are friendly to their employees, its hard to say, but all I'm saying is it hasn't appeared to hurt them.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,487
Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Dilauded]
    #1239496 - 01/22/03 12:05 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

To be honest from I finacial standpoint they are doing smart thing, BUT it is only for themselves. I don't really get where you associate more money with more employees. If an owner suddenly started coming into more money they wouldn't run out hiring people they would stick it in the bank or expand the business and THEN maybe need to hire more people. Employees are the most costly asset of a business and if a robot or computer could do the job that is what would get the position.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1239545 - 01/22/03 12:18 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

The better the working conditions, the better the employees perform, the better the service, the more money made

Nah, look at globalisation. Brutalising and treating your employees like slaves makes the most profit. Paying people a living wage and ensuring safety conditions all costs money. Money which could go to the boss instead.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1239975 - 01/22/03 02:36 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Al, that is somewhat off topic. I agree with you that slave labor is wrong, but I was speaking of companies in "advanced" countries, with employee regulations....

Besides, as horrible as this will sound, in some instances, working in a sweat shop is the best economic option provided to people in poor countries. Does that make it right? No. But hey, its something we have to live with. And if you disagree with globalization and the exploitation of workers so much, do your part and boycott the companies that partake in those activities.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1239996 - 01/22/03 02:44 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

How are you a slave if you can decide how, where, and to what extent you want
to participate in the economy?



Most poor people are born into poverty and most wealthy people are born wealthy. True, there are some rags-to-riches cases(mostly achieved by selling drugs), and there are, of course, riches-to-rags stories(mostly due to drug and/or alcohol addiction), but this is rarely the case. People don't choose what situation they're born into. Only the exceptionally talented and/or exceptionally lucky can break out of poverty.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1240320 - 01/22/03 04:39 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

do your part and boycott the companies that partake in those activities.

Yep, that's one way. Political activism and awareness raising are others. It would be nice if the governments of the western nations regulated it some though.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1240510 - 01/22/03 05:49 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

... and most wealthy people are born wealthy



Please define wealthy and provide statistics and their sources to back up your assertion.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (01/22/03 05:50 PM)


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OfflineGoBlue!
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Registered: 10/27/02
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1240521 - 01/22/03 05:54 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

If you had the drive, you could get a college degree, get hired by a good company, work your way up the corporate ladder, and change the benefits for the low employees that you seem to have concern for.

Actually, that's not exactly true.  Look up the Dodge v. Ford court case.  Ford decided that his company was making more than enough profits, so he doubled the wages of his workers and decreased the price of his Model-T car, even though the demand was already more than his company could supply.  He said he did this because his customers and employees were more important than excessive profits.  One of Ford's major shareholders, the Dodge brothers sued Ford because they claimed Ford's philanthropic policy cut into their dividends.  The court ruled in favor of the Dodge Brothers, and Ford was forced by the courts to reverse his policy so that Ford could increase dividends paid to shareholders.  That ruling has never been overturned.  :tongue:   


--------------------
:smile:  Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend  :smile:


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: GoBlue!]
    #1240565 - 01/22/03 06:12 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Well aren't you Mr SmartyPants. :grin:   


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Evolving]
    #1240582 - 01/22/03 06:18 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

So far, I have found this website. Since I have to get up early tomorrow, I will stop looking for now and continue later.

Equal Economic Opportunity and the Constitution

The founding fathers stated in the Declaration of Independence that every man should be free to pursue ?life, liberty, and happiness? (in early drafts "property" took the place of happiness). This meant that they were trying to ensure equal opportunities for people to earn money in the Declaration of Independence. Unfortunately, they must have forgotten to include this in the Constitution, which includes numerous provisions concerning the political rights and equalities of citizens but nothing concerning economic equality. There is nothing in our Constitution that offers economic aid to the underprivileged; thus, the Constitution is set up in a way that enables the wealthy to stay wealthy for generations at the expense of the lower economic classes. People born poor are likely to remain poor while those born rich are likely to remain rich, but no one seems to care why. Our country is set up with no checks and balances in the economy, so it is no wonder that those with capital will be able to make more money while those without will continue to struggle. So rather than set up a system of economic equality the Constitution sets up a system that perpetuates the cycle of poverty for those born poor. The Constitution seems to do just enough for the middle classes to have a broad base of support but offers little to the poor.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Edited by silversoul7 (01/22/03 08:15 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1240613 - 01/22/03 06:28 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)


People don't choose what situation they're born into.

But they can choose what to do with their lives.


Only the exceptionally talented and/or exceptionally lucky can break out of
poverty.

I don't buy that. If a person takes advantage of the educational opportunities
available to them, they can do whatever they want to do. It is my opinion that
most of the so-called disadvantaged people in America are there because of their
own actions or inactions.

And, the people who are in "poverty" in America live like kings in comparison to
most of the rest of the world.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1240763 - 01/22/03 07:19 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

It's interesting you mention "educational opportunities," because IMO the public education system, at least in some parts of the country, is in need of some serious reform. For one thing, I think there should be a class or classes that prepares people for some of the basic skills you need to know to get ahead in this world, such as doing a job interview, balancing a checkbook, writing a resume, etc. We can't simply expect people to learn these things on their own. If they're born into poverty, chances are their parents won't be able to offer much good advice on this either. I know some schools teach classes like this, but not nearly enough of them do.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Skikid16]
    #1240900 - 01/22/03 08:03 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

I was speaking of companies in "advanced" countries, with employee regulations....

Remember those regulations you mention didn't just magically appear in a gift from the boss's in their "advanced" society. It took brave working people decades of heroic strugle in the face of brutal intimidation and oppression from the companies to get every single one of those "rights". Rights which in the last 20 years have rapidly been dismantled.

working in a sweat shop is the best economic option

Nah, sweatshops are never the best economic option for anyone. There are simply enough desperate people in the world you can get away with exploiting if you have enough money. If the corporations thought they could get away with it in america (and who knows, they just might) they'd start hiring children and paying slave wages. Do you think there arn't enough desperate people in america who'd send their kids to work in a slave labour factory for a few dollars a week instead of sending them to school?

Don't confuse exploiting desperation with the "best economic option". The best economic option for those kids is a decent education. Not working in a factory losing fingers and handling dangerous chemicals with no safety measures for 10 cents a day.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1240938 - 01/22/03 08:17 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

silversoul7 writes:

Only the exceptionally talented and/or exceptionally lucky can break out of poverty.

Nonsense. That may be true in a totalitarian state or in some Saharan nations, but it is most certainly untrue in Western societies.

I come from a poor background -- at the time I left home my parents had never had enough money to even own a car -- as a matter of fact, my father bought his first car long after I did. We never even had a television until the last five years I lived at home. I must be one of the few North Americans born in the last half of the Twentieth Century to do without the "boob tube" for most of my formative years.

I am neither exceptionally talented nor exceptionally lucky, but I am no longer poor. Neither are most of the guys I grew up with. Neither are my parents, any longer. How did we do it? Simple.

We started working at minimum wage jobs (we used to call them "Joe Jobs"), spent the first few years sharing accomodations to cut our rent expenses, furnished our homes with milk crate end tables and brick-and-board shelving units, gained job skills and saved our money, then moved on to better jobs, then better jobs still, etc.

I have been everything from a pin-setter in a bowling alley to one step below a vice president in Canada's third largest computer-related company. I have sold clothes, cars, stereos, and computers. I have tended bar, sorted mail on the night shift, assembled electronic components and owned both a clothing boutique and a windsurfing rental business.

If I can do it, almost anyone can. It is true that there are SOME who haven't the ability to rise much beyond the position of janitor or night watchman, but those unfortunates are a lot scarcer than you seem to believe. To say "this is rarely the case," in reference to people making a comfortable life for themselves is incorrect.

pinky



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OfflinePhred
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: silversoul7]
    #1240993 - 01/22/03 08:45 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

silversoul7 quotes from some website:

The founding fathers stated in the Declaration of Independence that every man should be free to pursue ?life, liberty, and happiness? (in early drafts "property" took the place of happiness).

The key word here is "pursue". The Founding Fathers realized that the proper function of civilized government MUST be to recognize and protect every individual's right to take the actions he deems necessary to improve his lot in life. But note that the right to PURSUE is most assuredly NOT equivalent to the right to be GIVEN.

There is nothing in our Constitution that offers economic aid to the underprivileged;

Correct. Why, then, are people so adamant that such aid is a right?

...thus, the Constitution is set up in a way that enables the wealthy to stay wealthy for generations...

Hogwash. There are countless instances of dissolute heirs pissing away family fortunes in a few years. And we've all read stories of lottery winners who became millionaires and blew it all in an amazingly short stretch of time.

... at the expense of the lower economic classes.

More hogwash. How does some Ferrarri-driving, mansion-living, champagne-guzzling, coke-snorting trust-funder prevent me from making my way in the world?

Our country is set up with no checks and balances in the economy...

Was set up. That is certainly no longer the case. There are literally hundreds of thousands of restrictions on what businesses can and cannot do (many of them contradictory), and what are programs such as medicare and welfare if not redistribution of wealth?

so it is no wonder that those with capital will be able to make more money...

Not if they do stupid things with it.

... while those without will continue to struggle.

It requires effort to go from zero to comfortable, true. So what? The fact that some are starting from more than zero doesn't alter the circumstances of the struggle for those who have little to begin with.

So rather than set up a system of economic equality...

No system devised by man can EVER do that. If we were to take all the money from every person in the world, toss it into a giant pot and split it into 6.5 billion equal piles, then hand a pile to each of the Earth's inhabitants, in less than ten years there would be rich and poor once again.

...the Constitution sets up a system that perpetuates the cycle of poverty for those born poor.

The biggest untruth in the whole appalling screed. The Constitution set up the only system in which the poor have a chance to improve their situation... one that guarantees they be left FREE to do whatever they choose (always excepting fuck with others rights to do the same, of course) to improve their financial situation.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: you dont get a job from a poor person [Re: Xlea321]
    #1241006 - 01/22/03 08:54 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

Alex123 writes:

Nah, sweatshops are never the best economic option for anyone.

Incorrect. For some people in some countries, "sweatshops" literally are the the best alternative of a very limited selection.

The best economic option for those kids is a decent education.

Then why don't their parents send them to school?

Not working in a factory losing fingers and handling dangerous chemicals with no safety measures for 10 cents a day.

We're back to the unsupported ten cents a day claim again are we? Last time you had mentioned this you had been forced to adjust it to ten cents an hour.

pinky


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