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OfflineAzmodeus
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Succesive generations
    #1214704 - 01/13/03 12:38 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Im just wondering what happens if i have a syringe and i grow out some mushrooms,  then take prints from them and do it all over again.  Can this be done forever? howmay generations? what are the effects on the shrooms?
:confused: :confused: :confused:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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OfflineMickyFinn
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1214715 - 01/13/03 12:42 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

are you shootin for a hybrid? from what i understand it wont happen. but to answer your question, yes you can still grow from the same spores.

Edited by MickyFinn (01/13/03 12:43 PM)

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: MickyFinn]
    #1214806 - 01/13/03 01:17 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Indefinately?! Doesn't the mycelium loose vigour after doing this a few times???


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Anonymous

Re: Succesive generations [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1214879 - 01/13/03 01:43 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

No, how do you think it happens in nature?

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: ]
    #1217019 - 01/14/03 06:43 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I guess i though there were many factors outside that would influence the spores and how well they mature. Not to mention othe spores and molds to compete with...


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Lest we forget. "

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OfflineFanaTEK
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Registered: 09/19/01
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1217183 - 01/14/03 07:52 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

You can do this indefinitely. You will eventually (probably inadvertently) end up with some genetic selection if you continually print specimines that feature a certain characteristic (tall, fat stem, etc.). The only time you have to worry about genetic degradation is in cloning, and then after several generations.

FanaTEK


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OfflineDoDo
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: FanaTEK]
    #1217192 - 01/14/03 07:56 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

The only thing you r excluding is evolution, not something to be worried about  :smirk: 

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InvisibleSixCee
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: DoDo]
    #1217242 - 01/14/03 08:22 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I doubt it. In nature the same mycelial network lives for years and years. An indoor grow? About 2 months.


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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1217313 - 01/14/03 08:44 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: vatoloco]
    #1217564 - 01/14/03 09:51 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Ahhh, i see!! I must have confused cloning generations with spore generations. Why cant you clone indefinately? And also what the deal with wild prints and domesticating them? Is this just to develop thier "unique characteristics"? If i find a shroom in the wild is it a new strain?


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleSixCee
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1217622 - 01/14/03 10:06 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

You can clone indeffenitely.


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-->The above statements may or not be true.
->Quote of the Moment :
"Yea. All bitches are whores who love sex." -Cubie
----> PMs checked daily.

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OfflineMickyFinn
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: SixCee]
    #1217625 - 01/14/03 10:07 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

successive generations will be weaker

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: MickyFinn]
    #1217672 - 01/14/03 10:23 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Clone indefinately, but weaker........ weaker in what ways?  potency? size? growth? :confused: 


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OfflineMickyFinn
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1217683 - 01/14/03 10:25 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

sorry successive cloned will be weaker all around. size, potency, probably even the ability to fight off contams.

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: MickyFinn]
    #1217698 - 01/14/03 10:32 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Someone told me that isolates perform alot better than spores. Is an isolate just the first generation of a cloned specimen?


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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InvisibleSixCee
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1218020 - 01/14/03 12:14 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

I know for sure that it colonizes much better. Maybe they meant that.


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-->The above statements may or not be true.
->Quote of the Moment :
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Anonymous

Re: Succesive generations [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1218082 - 01/14/03 12:39 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

An isolate is either a pure substrain isolated from a multispore innoculation on agar, or a Cloned mushroom.

Isolates tend to perform better because it is a single mycelium that makes up the entire colony. If this clone is known to produce good on a certain substrate in a certain environment, having an entire tray or cake of this substrain will produce more uniformly and consistant within these known parameters. All stages of the growth cycle can be timed. You know how long it will take to colonize a petri, a jar of substrate, a tray of substrate. How long it will take to pin from casing, how long to mature to spore drop.

With Isolates you are working with KNOWN producers.


Mycelium grows cell by cell. Each new cell that is produced has to undergo nuclear mitosis TWICE, in a very coordinated way. OVER TIME, this leads to mutations. The more you transfer a single culture to new plates, the more time it has to mutate into something different then what you started with. Continued Transfers of Clones over and over and over and over will eventually ruin your isolate.

If starting from spores each time. Degeneration of the strain is highly unlikely. Every time you go back to multispore you roll the dice again.

Easiest thing to do is just shoot up jars with spores and clone the most succesful fruits. Use these clones to make up more jars. When you start to notice degeneration of your clones, multispore again.

Personal prefrence is to multispore agar. Fruit several pure substrains that are isolated from the multispore. Clone the best. Use these until they don't perform up to your standards. Then go back to multispore and isolate more clones.

Alot of people just multispore jars everytime. It really is just a personal prefrence.

If you go back to spores each time, you really shouldn't run into problems of degeneration within your life time. OVER TIME your Strain might develope a prefrence for the environment you grow in. It might not perform as well outside that environment, but it should still perform. Every Strain has SHITLOADS of substrains.

Disease resistance will never be up to par over time if growing artificially indoors. The object of indoor culture is to EXCLUDE pathogens and competitors, so you are selecting against DISEASE RESISTANCE, not for it.

I have seen NO information related to selection of specific traits for Cubensis.


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: ]
    #1218089 - 01/14/03 12:42 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

another awesome post from teonan.

that last sentence was especially interesting - i wonder why not?


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InvisibleSixCee
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: shirley knott]
    #1218101 - 01/14/03 12:47 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Awesome post!


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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-->The above statements may or not be true.
->Quote of the Moment :
"Yea. All bitches are whores who love sex." -Cubie
----> PMs checked daily.

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: SixCee]
    #1219875 - 01/15/03 03:43 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, thank you Teonan!  Very informative. :smile:

I dont have agar, but if i were to take a piece of a mushroom cap (inner tissue) and put it in honey water and let it grow out, is this effectively creating an isolate?


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Anonymous

Re: Succesive generations [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1227064 - 01/17/03 02:33 PM (21 years, 5 months ago)

By any means neccessary. As long as you get tissue from a mushroom, and not it's spores. There are NO contaminants. You have a clone.

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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: ]
    #1232858 - 01/20/03 04:10 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

'thank you again teonan! I have to try fruiting a clone once my casing is done!

I have one last question.....possibly more...but this'll prolly be the last. When i make spore prints does it matter the size or healthiness of the parent? I mean the only reason for using large caps in printing is the increased amount of spores right? If i get spores from a small twisted shroom the spores wont be slower to colonise and produce smaller mushrooms right?


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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OfflineBladeLSD
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: ]
    #1232926 - 01/20/03 04:31 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

Your post was very informative and you get 5 shrooms from me, but I was wondering. Ssy Multispore innoculation was used, and a few of the cakes produced shrooms which my cat thought had good qualities, could my cat us mycellium from that cake to produce a clone (via honey water tek). Would the honey water tek work for fresh mushroom tissue?


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Succesive generations [Re: BladeLSD]
    #1232962 - 01/20/03 04:44 AM (21 years, 5 months ago)

It would work for fresh mushroom tissue. You just need to be VERY sterile when transfering. A piece of mycelia would not work cuz it would have more than one substrain, so it would not be a clone. Sorry the mycelia would work, just not for creating an isolate.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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