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FujiFlame
Stranger



Registered: 02/21/08
Posts: 100
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives??
#12137359 - 03/03/10 07:52 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I wish I had pics, but I didn't have my camera with me at the time and now I don't have access to the shrooms >.< I'm trying to get my friend to take some pics and send them to me, I will update this thread if he follows through.
First, to make it clear, I'm not some dumb first time hunter who hasn't a clue what he's looking for. I've been hunting for years and know too well that mushrooms come in all shapes, sizes, and colors, even within a single species. I've seen some interesting things, to say the least.
Note these pics **THESE ARE NOT THE MUSHROOMS I FOUND THESE ARE OLD PICTURES THAT I'M USING TO MAKE A POINT**




According to all I've ever been told, these are all bizarre variations of Panaeolus cyanescens. Sounds crazy, I know, but I even sent in specimens of the ones in the first three pics and it was confirmed.
So what I'm saying is, sometimes active mushrooms look nothing like what we think we're looking for or have ever seen. Regardless, as an experienced hunter, I usually know when a mushroom is active and when its not, as far from the expected appearance as it may be.
Long story short, I found mushrooms with 8/10 characteristics that scream active, one that throws me off, and one being a lack of blue bruising.
Here's the story:
We went to this field in south Florida where we've found cubes and copes before. It was a little dry, no surprise, but eventually we found some mushrooms. My first find was a few on shit that looked a little like smallish, burnt cubes at first, their tops were that very solid bronze color and the texture of a toasted cube. They didn't have veils though (at least not remaining – they did have a very thin ring where a veil would be, like what would remain if the veil came off a cube). I still believed them active, whatever they were, based on certain characteristics.
I came across a patch of about 30 mushrooms that looked almost exactly the same, but they were different and growing randomly in the grass. These were all smaller, bell shaped pans anything from light brown to black. Some of them looked almost identical, but none of them were the size and shape of the ones I'd found on the shit, so I could only assume them to be different species. I assumed them inactive, again based on key characteristics.
My buddy managed to find about 8 mushrooms like the first ones I found and he was just as confused. Some of his finds had pretty large, opened/flat caps that continued to push these away from the inactive pans they shared certain characteristics with (mostly the color and the makeup of the stem).
What got us more than anything was the fact that THEY DIDN'T BRUISE BLUE. I found a pin (which basically looked like a tiny cube whose veil had just broken) and I WANT to say it started bruising and that's what gave me the idea that they were active, but would you believe I managed to lose all three of my mushrooms somewhere along the hunt? We still had my buddy's, but again none of them bruised. I have never had mushrooms where 8/10 characteristics scream active not bruise blue. I've heard of mushrooms not bruising expect in pins of the specimens, though, I think in reference to Gyms....not to mention I've picked cubes that didn't bruise, but rarely and almost always wetter, weaker ones, which seems a notable contrast to the ones we've found, unless they're equally weak which I'd think strange for mushrooms found in reasonable conditions.
The one characteristic apart from the lack of bruising that throws me off is the stem. Near the cap it reminds me a lot of an active mushroom's stem, but at the base its very stringy and dark brown. Still seems like there was enough lighter color in there that they'd show blue.
My buddy suggests that that their partial driedness could be a factor. My hunch was that maybe the fibrous quality of the stem was keeping the alkaloids in tact. We were just tossing ideas around though because we really had no fucking clue.
I tried to gauge the color of the spores which had gathered on the stem of some of the mushrooms, but the color of the mushrooms themselves may have thrown me off. They were either dark purple, dark brown, or black.
Do we have any suspicions based on each of these spore color possibilities and all of the above details? I've found mushrooms that look almost exactly like cubes (growing on shit) but with light brown as opposed to gold tops that don't bruise; that's about the closest thing I can think of to these, but these have got too golden of a top to be those, methinks. There's a couple of other differences too, including an odd size range (bigger/heftier than pans, but smaller than any decent sized cube).
Any input is welcome. This is anything but a critical situation and simply thought it might give way to discussion. As I said I'll update with pics if I can get them.
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DannyGlick

Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: FujiFlame]
#12137430 - 03/03/10 08:00 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've found active Gymnopilus and Psilocybe species that don't bruise blue. Some do, some don't. 
As long as your certain of the species, what's the problem?
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Atlantic Wind


Registered: 03/26/09
Posts: 1,066
Loc: Milwaukee, WI
Last seen: 3 months, 19 days
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: DannyGlick]
#12137514 - 03/03/10 08:10 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Please post pics. I don't think I've ever had a cube or cyan that didn't bruise
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DannyGlick

Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: Atlantic Wind]
#12137601 - 03/03/10 08:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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As far as cubes and cyans go I don't know, but some active Gymnopilus species and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata, in my experience as well as other peoples, have a tendency to not bruise blue.
I don't have pics of them on hand right now, but I'm being for real on this.
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psychedelicSLUG
ovoideocystidiata protector



Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3,291
Loc: NJ
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: DannyGlick]
#12137639 - 03/03/10 08:26 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DannyGlick said: As far as cubes and cyans go I don't know, but some active Gymnopilus species and Psilocybe ovoideocystidiata, in my experience as well as other peoples, have a tendency to not bruise blue.
I don't have pics of them on hand right now, but I'm being for real on this.

No bruising...
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FujiFlame
Stranger



Registered: 02/21/08
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: psychedelicSLUG]
#12137888 - 03/03/10 09:02 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
DannyGlick said: As long as your certain of the species, what's the problem?
Nothing. Problem is, I'm not certain of the species. One of the key points I made was I've been known to be a little unsure about the species but at least know if I've got something active or not (the pics I posted being the demonstration of this) but they at least bruised blue for me. These haven't, and characteristics don't quite match any species I'm familiar with. I don't think they're cubes, I don't think they're Pan cyans; I don't know what they are, but they look similar to active species except for the lack of blue bruising.
I'm sure some of you understand these kinds of finds. I've found active pans 99% indistinguishable from pan ants, the giveaway being blue bruising. I've also found active pans that didn't bruise. Would you believe I had a batch of Pan cyans dry WHITE? I'd never seen a thing. They usually turn anywhere from grey to black because of the amount of alkaloids in them, but these things dried white without a bruise, and were wonderfully potent. Weird things, mushrooms...
And just to sink it in because it hasn't been made clear, we're not ready to much on these on the hunch that they're active. I'm not even desperate and wont even see the things for another month. I'm more curious what it is exactly that I found than anything.
I'm used to the notion that (almost?) all Panaeolus species growing on shit, active or not, are not deadly and at the worst make you pee out your butt. I just don't think these are some random Pan species, but something closer to cubes, and if they're not cubes....???
Quote:
psychedelicSLUG said:

No bruising...
Not what I found, but support of a lack of bruising. The color of the cap is similar, except said color was definitely the result of some time spent in the sun, and had a definite golden bronze shimmer to it. Also, the stem was basically a lighter version of the color of the cap, not white like those mushrooms. The pin I found was especially similar to a cube pin, except again browner all around.
I'm really sorry I don't have pics, it may be a day or two before I get them, if even that soon. I just figured I'd go ahead and get yall's gears a-turnin.
Edited by FujiFlame (03/03/10 09:08 PM)
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psychedelicSLUG
ovoideocystidiata protector



Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3,291
Loc: NJ
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: FujiFlame]
#12137900 - 03/03/10 09:04 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yea this mushroom is totally different, I was just using for an example.
As for what Danny said, sometimes mushrooms don't bruise.
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Variety is the spice of life!
   
   
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist


Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: FujiFlame] 2
#12138260 - 03/03/10 09:47 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Maybe you have Stropharia semiglobata or Panaeolus papilionaceus. Next time bring a camera hunting.
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psylosymonreturns
aka Gym Sporrison


Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 13,948
Loc: Mos Eisley,
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#12139715 - 03/04/10 01:30 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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ya for sure. as for actives not bruising blue,semilanceatas dont usually bruise blue and some stuntziis as well.
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mycot
Crazy as fuck


Registered: 05/31/06
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Loc: Australia
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: psylosymonreturns]
#12139777 - 03/04/10 01:44 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've found cyans to always bruise blue if bruised and given a number of minutes for the color to show up.
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BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores




Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,790
Loc: Puget Sound
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: psychedelicSLUG]
#12140147 - 03/04/10 04:48 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
psychedelicSLUG said:

No bruising...
Those haven't been damaged yet. Though, I agree that many mushrooms don't bruise blue. G. luteofolius sometimes refuses to bruise blue/green for me.
-------------------- Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species. Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.
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psychedelicSLUG
ovoideocystidiata protector



Registered: 11/20/08
Posts: 3,291
Loc: NJ
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#12140411 - 03/04/10 07:29 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I tried for a while to get em to blue...
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Variety is the spice of life!
   
   
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FujiFlame
Stranger



Registered: 02/21/08
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: psylosymonreturns]
#12140499 - 03/04/10 08:09 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: Next time bring a camera hunting.
You're tellin me D: I'm like never out there without the thing, but even when I found myself without it I didn't think much of it...I've got a ton of great pics and just thought whatever about it, little did I know I'd have a puzzling find.
Quote:
psylosymonreturns said: ya for sure. as for actives not bruising blue,semilanceatas dont usually bruise blue and some stuntziis as well.
Psilocybe stuntzii is actually the closest thing I've seen, minus the...I don't know the technical term, but the sort of vague vertical stripes along the rim of the cap (the mushrooms I found with planar caps were smooth end to end, the ones a little more convex had some wrinklage). I just woke up and can't think of the right word >.< Though upon looking at many pics I notice that they, like many species, come in a variety of appearances.
The stuntzii pictured in the first post of this thread are pretty much identical to what I found:
* http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11031828
Twiztidsage's breakdown toward the bottom of the page even further secures the similarity, especially the parts about the dingy stem and convex/plane caps:
Quote:
Twiztidsage said: Stuntzii are usually chestnut brown, not caramel color like cyans (at least when mature), and they have an annulus (ring) on the stem that usually has a blue tint. Cyans have a whitish, firm stem (with no annulus), and stuntzii have a dingy yellowish brown color stem. Stuntzii sometimes have wavy caps, but tend to be more convex or plane.
Question is, would I find those in Florida? Is it a temperature thing? And as far as them growing on shit, they weren't necessarily growing right out of a blob of shit, but instead out of ground that seemed to have shit sunken into it. My friend seemed under the same impression.
So, is stuntzii a feasible ID? In Florida? 
Again thanks for any input guys. I know its a pain without pics. Good discussion regardless.
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psylosymonreturns
aka Gym Sporrison


Registered: 10/16/09
Posts: 13,948
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: FujiFlame]
#12140717 - 03/04/10 09:11 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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who knows, stuntzii seems to be very well dispersed and have a wide variety of looks. but without a pic its all guess-timations.
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FujiFlame
Stranger



Registered: 02/21/08
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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: psylosymonreturns]
#12140864 - 03/04/10 09:48 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
psylosymonreturns said: who knows, stuntzii seems to be very well dispersed and have a wide variety of looks. but without a pic its all guess-timations.
I just talked to my buddy, he said he'll have pics by the end of the day if not within a few hours. Even still, the fact that they're dried and burnt to some degree is just going to make IDing all the more difficult. I mean that's most of my problem. I'm sure if they'd been fresh and not burnt this would all be a lot easier, lol. Mushrooms can look all kinds of funky when they're dried and burnt, if not unrecognizable. Pics may bring us no clarity D:
Maybe I'll have him send in a specimen or two to Workman...he's still around, I take it?
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: FujiFlame]
#12140948 - 03/04/10 10:05 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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2859558484
Growery is Better



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Re: Experienced hunter confuddled! Non-bluing actives?? [Re: Workman]
#12142004 - 03/04/10 01:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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ive seen copes that barely/dont bruise. its usually after they have been out in the sun for a while and dry out a little bit so they are harder to damage
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