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Offlinezombi
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Plato and hallucinogens
    #12130254 - 03/02/10 07:51 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

i was reading "flesh of the gods" today, specifically the section written by Gordon Wasson, "the divine mushroom of immortality," and he proposed an intriguing idea which is a new one for me; that Plato got his theory of Forms from hallucinogenic experiences. he also said archetypes instead of Forms. i have called them archetypes before in reference to Jung's archetypes, but i have never seen anyone else call them that. i have also never heard anyone suggest Plato used hallucinogens (though i suppose its not that far fetched).

this all kind of caught me off guard. any thoughts on the matter?

oh and while he did not specify what type of mushroom he was talking about, he did say it wasn't the fly agaric, so i assume he is refering to psilocybe. are there any other psychoactive mushrooms that have slipped my mind?


--------------------
My words, too, are only an echo; but there is no reason why I should not repeat what I have heard.                    :zombie5:
-Socrates                                                                Let the rabbits wear glasses!
:gd_icon::trippycow::gd_icon:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: zombi]
    #12130440 - 03/02/10 08:19 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Amanitas muscaria.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
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OfflineBothHands
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Poid]
    #12130460 - 03/02/10 08:22 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

zombi said:
he did say it wasn't the fly agaric



Quote:

Poid said:
Amanitas muscaria.




:lol:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: BothHands]
    #12130482 - 03/02/10 08:25 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Whoops...:drgonz:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineBothHands
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: zombi]
    #12130564 - 03/02/10 08:35 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

There are several other mushrooms that produce psilocybin, psilocin, and/or baeocystin.  So there are potentially other culprits that aren't in the psilocybe family that would act in a similar way.  More than likely it was a mushroom with one or more of those chemicals.

There may be other chemicals in other mushrooms that I don't know about though.

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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Poid]
    #12130590 - 03/02/10 08:39 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

"that Plato got his theory of Forms from hallucinogenic experiences. "

Please, read Plato next time you want to read some "psychadelia literature"  You will gain a lot more from it.


First of all, Plato had no theory of forms.  Plato's dialogues are just that, dialogues.  The "theory of forms" was just Plato's attempt to resolve the problem of "sameness"  It was not his originally, presumably Socrates made it up. However, every time it is mentioned in the dialogues it is with the utmost skepticism.  Please, read Plato, I'm not even doing it justice.  Start with Apology, then Phaedo, Sophist, Crito, Gorgias, Protagoras, and Parmenides, in any order.  You will come out a different person, far more change for the better than ANY hallucinogenic experience I've ever had.


Aside from that, the main drug mentioned in the dialogues is going into caves.  There have been confirmations that some caves near Greece have gas vents, and presumably one could get very high sitting in one for an extended period of time.

Edited by xFrockx (03/02/10 08:41 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: zombi]
    #12131686 - 03/02/10 11:27 PM (14 years, 20 days ago)

Plato took part in the Eleusinian mysteries, and ingested the sacred kykeon, which some have posited to have contained ergot.


--------------------

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: zombi]
    #12136614 - 03/03/10 06:08 PM (14 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Plato took part in the Eleusinian mysteries, and ingested the sacred kykeon, which some have posited to have contained ergot.




Yes, Silversoul is correct. In The Road to Eleusis, detail is gone into about the particular form of ergot: Claviceps Paspali, rather than the Claviceps Purpurea, which was responsible for ergotism (St. Anthony's Fire). The latter form is also one from which LSD was made. Ergot forms tiny little purple mushrooms when the black spores fall from the grain ears onto the ground (purpurea means purple).



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: zombi]
    #12141256 - 03/04/10 11:14 AM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

i was reading "flesh of the gods" today, specifically the section written by Gordon Wasson, "the divine mushroom of immortality,"



Umm I don't really think so. I'v heard the Amanita Mascaria being compared to a pheonix in the way that it dies and is reborn. I think there is something about the way the mushroom vanishes and then comes back that is analogous to immortality. IMO Plato was just a genuis who knew how to think for himself and didn't need psychedelics.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

Edited by soldatheero (03/04/10 11:15 AM)

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Offlinezombi
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: soldatheero]
    #12143064 - 03/04/10 03:59 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

ok i've got some work to do. where to start.
Quote:

xFrockx said:
"that Plato got his theory of Forms from hallucinogenic experiences. "

Please, read Plato next time you want to read some "psychadelia literature"  You will gain a lot more from it.


First of all, Plato had no theory of forms.  Plato's dialogues are just that, dialogues.  The "theory of forms" was just Plato's attempt to resolve the problem of "sameness"  It was not his originally, presumably Socrates made it up. However, every time it is mentioned in the dialogues it is with the utmost skepticism.  Please, read Plato, I'm not even doing it justice.  Start with Apology, then Phaedo, Sophist, Crito, Gorgias, Protagoras, and Parmenides, in any order.  You will come out a different person, far more change for the better than ANY hallucinogenic experience I've ever had.




I have and do read Plato. I'm here posting about him, therefore its relatively safe to assume I am somewhat familiar with his works; not to mention my signature is a quote from one of his works. You'll excuse me for calling it the theory of Forms rather than the doctrine of recollection. Strictly speaking, Plato's works are not "psychadelia literature." Psychedelia denotes psychedelic drugs, and I am not aware of Plato mentioning anything like that. A collection of anthropological essays about the ritual use of hallucinogens on the other hand is.

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Plato took part in the Eleusinian mysteries, and ingested the sacred kykeon, which some have posited to have contained ergot.



Aha. This is what I was referring to. Ergot certainly seems plausible.

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

i was reading "flesh of the gods" today, specifically the section written by Gordon Wasson, "the divine mushroom of immortality,"



Umm I don't really think so. I'v heard the Amanita Mascaria being compared to a pheonix in the way that it dies and is reborn. I think there is something about the way the mushroom vanishes and then comes back that is analogous to immortality. IMO Plato was just a genuis who knew how to think for himself and didn't need psychedelics.




I'm not exactly sure what it is your trying to say here (you don't think I was reading that?), but I believe you are objecting to my assumption that the "divine mushroom of immortality" Wasson spoke of might be a psilocybe mushroom, and asserting that it is indeed the Amanita muscaria.

If I understood that correctly, then perhaps I should clarify my original point. To your credit, Wasson did write a book titled "Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality" in which he posits that soma was indeed the fly agaric. What I was referring to however was the hallucinogen Wasson believed the initiates at Eleusis ingested. He felt the potion of Eleusis did not contain the juice of the fly agaric. The experience sounded to him much more similar to that of peyote. He wrote "Plants chemically allied to the Mexican hallucinogen may well flourish in the Aegean basin, their virtues still hidden from us."


--------------------
My words, too, are only an echo; but there is no reason why I should not repeat what I have heard.                    :zombie5:
-Socrates                                                                Let the rabbits wear glasses!
:gd_icon::trippycow::gd_icon:

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: zombi]
    #12143173 - 03/04/10 04:14 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

but I believe you are objecting to my assumption that the "divine mushroom of immortality



Sorry im pretty confused. What does soma mean? How exactly does this guy tie plato to psychedelics?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Offlinezombi
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: soldatheero]
    #12144593 - 03/04/10 07:48 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma
i am not in a position to be teaching anyone what soma is, but my understanding is that it was a god/drink/plant from the vedas(ancient Indian texts). i guess its hallucinogenic, as Gordon Wasson thought soma was amanita muscaria.

as for plato; "Eleusis is the place, where the cult of the goddess Demeter existed many centuries and where the most famous religious festival, called the Eleusinian mysteries were performed in the honour of this deity." backround on Eleusis

so the eleusinian mysteries, according to Wasson, were sacred rites held in september to early october, which Wasson notes is mushroom season in europe. most anyone except an unabsolved murderer could participate once in their lives, even slaves. we know the initiates drank a potion. what was in it is unknown, but Wasson felt it was hallucinogenic. "It is clear to me(Wasson) where Plato found his ideas(speaking of the ideal world of archetypes). Plato had drunk of the potion at the temple of eleusis and had spent the night seeing the great vision."

like i think i said earlier wasson thought it sounded similar to a peyote experience and not like an experience with amanitas.


--------------------
My words, too, are only an echo; but there is no reason why I should not repeat what I have heard.                    :zombie5:
-Socrates                                                                Let the rabbits wear glasses!
:gd_icon::trippycow::gd_icon:

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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: zombi]
    #12144969 - 03/04/10 08:58 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Wasn't the Oracle at Delphi all hopped up on something too?

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Offlinezombi
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12145309 - 03/04/10 09:59 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

generally speaking, many if not most oracles, not just those at delphi, are believed to have used mind altering substances of one type or anther. but thats not really relevant at all so i'm not sure why i'm still typing.


--------------------
My words, too, are only an echo; but there is no reason why I should not repeat what I have heard.                    :zombie5:
-Socrates                                                                Let the rabbits wear glasses!
:gd_icon::trippycow::gd_icon:

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: zombi]
    #12145535 - 03/04/10 10:30 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Hm quite interesting.. I'm in love with anything vedic! Is there much possibility this elixer of eternal life is just a metaphore?


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12145691 - 03/04/10 10:53 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Wasn't the Oracle at Delphi all hopped up on something too?



I think archeologists have determined there was some sort of gas leak at the Oracle's temple at Delphi.  I think it may have been ether.


--------------------

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #12145715 - 03/04/10 10:57 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

In my greek mythology class the prof said they would get high on fumes from I forget what.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Offlinezombi
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #12145939 - 03/04/10 11:38 PM (14 years, 18 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I think archeologists have determined there was some sort of gas leak at the Oracle's temple at Delphi.  I think it may have been ether.




first off, i think i have heard this before but i have no clue as to its validity.

second, i feel that there is a better chance that the oracles employed the use of mind altering substances (or at the very least mind altering practices) purposefully, rather than saying the temple just happened to have a gas leak. drug use and other such practices, especially non recreational use like this, has not always carried the stigma that they do in our society. i feel that some people might be inclined to perpetuate the idea that they were high "on accident" because they may think if it was verified that the ancient greeks - the founders of democracy - found psychedelic drug use acceptable it would give contemporaries the same impression. this could certainly be seen as undesirable by a large portion of our society, particularly in the scientific community (who assert that a trip is a chemical reaction, not a potentially positive psychic experience).


--------------------
My words, too, are only an echo; but there is no reason why I should not repeat what I have heard.                    :zombie5:
-Socrates                                                                Let the rabbits wear glasses!
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12150498 - 03/05/10 07:30 PM (14 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Wasn't the Oracle at Delphi all hopped up on something too?





various things like henbane datura and volcanic vent fumes


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: thedudenj]
    #12150531 - 03/05/10 07:38 PM (14 years, 17 days ago)

Did Apollo's disappearance in the winter have anything to do with a certain hallucinogen not being present? Really you could just BS me on this, cause I've never heard this connection before.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #12150579 - 03/05/10 07:50 PM (14 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Wasn't the Oracle at Delphi all hopped up on something too?



I think archeologists have determined there was some sort of gas leak at the Oracle's temple at Delphi.  I think it may have been ether.




Actually, geological surveys have failed to detect any kind of 'vapors' emanating from fissures at Delphi. As to ether, ethyl ether is produced by the distillation of ethyl alcohol with sulphuric acid, which pulls the water out of the ethanol, resulting in ether. Of petroleum ether, I am not certain, but neither can be naturally occurring geochemical products as far as I know.


Added 07/22/2016:  http://www.seeker.com/how-did-the-oracle-at-delphi-really-prophesize-1766097281.html

http://pythiaofdelphi.weebly.com/the-oracles-ethylene.html


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (07/22/16 11:50 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Kickle]
    #12151174 - 03/05/10 10:09 PM (14 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Did Apollo's disappearance in the winter have anything to do with a certain hallucinogen not being present? Really you could just BS me on this, cause I've never heard this connection before.



I'm not aware of any myth regarding Apollo disappearing during the winter.  Are you thinking of Persephone?


--------------------

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #12151248 - 03/05/10 10:21 PM (14 years, 17 days ago)

Nope.

During the winter, no one could go to the Oracle at Delphi for council from Apollo, because Apollo went to the North. Instead, Dionysus would be in town.

"Apollo shared the sanctuary at Delphi with Dionysus. Every fall Apollo departed for his winter quarters in the land of the Hyperboreans (a distant fabulous land in the North), returning in the spring. During his absence the Pythia did not deliver oracles, and Dionysus ruled over Delphi."

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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Kickle]
    #12152956 - 03/06/10 09:59 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

Actually, geological surveys have failed to detect any kind of 'vapors' emanating from fissures at Delphi. As to ether, ethyl ether is produced by the distillation of ethyl alcohol with sulphuric acid, which pulls the water out of the ethanol, resulting in ether. Of petroleum ether, I am not certain, but neither can be naturally occurring geochemical products as far as I know.



Yeah your right. Silversoul you think they just accidently continuously got high without realizing it or some shit? These greeks were not stupid.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: soldatheero]
    #12152984 - 03/06/10 10:09 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

soldatheero said:
Quote:

Actually, geological surveys have failed to detect any kind of 'vapors' emanating from fissures at Delphi. As to ether, ethyl ether is produced by the distillation of ethyl alcohol with sulphuric acid, which pulls the water out of the ethanol, resulting in ether. Of petroleum ether, I am not certain, but neither can be naturally occurring geochemical products as far as I know.



Yeah your right. Silversoul you think they just accidently continuously got high without realizing it or some shit? These greeks were not stupid.



If there were vapors, that is not to say that it was accidental.


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #12153031 - 03/06/10 10:23 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

I think archeologists have determined there was some sort of gas leak at the Oracle's temple at Delphi.  I think it may have been ether.



O.K but so you know there was no accident the oracle likely got high, went into a trance and foretold the future.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: Silversoul]
    #12156122 - 03/06/10 08:53 PM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Ah...women have been getting 'the vapors' for centuries. Hysteria is Greek for 'wandering womb,' which of course is anatomically impossible, but there is that emotional lability in many women that the Greeks must have taken as states of possession by gods and goddesses. Haitian possession of women by female L'wa still goes on, Erzuli Freda and the like. 'The vapors,' meaning faintness, in the 19th century was chalked up to those sexy but suffocating corsets women used to wear. I can imagine the type of women that were selected to be the mouthpiece of Apollo at Delphi - the flakey, psychic, fortune-teller archetype, and with all due pomp and circumstance surrounding the ritual. Maybe Schizophrenic or Schizotypal, or Schizoaffective types, perhaps with Histrionic Personality dynamics as well.  :shrug:

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Re: Plato and hallucinogens [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23458883 - 07/20/16 08:50 AM (7 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Ah...women have been getting 'the vapors' for centuries. Hysteria is Greek for 'wandering womb,' which of course is anatomically impossible, but there is that emotional lability in many women that the Greeks must have taken as states of possession by gods and goddesses. Haitian possession of women by female L'wa still goes on, Erzuli Freda and the like. 'The vapors,' meaning faintness, in the 19th century was chalked up to those sexy but suffocating corsets women used to wear. I can imagine the type of women that were selected to be the mouthpiece of Apollo at Delphi - the flakey, psychic, fortune-teller archetype, and with all due pomp and circumstance surrounding the ritual. Maybe Schizophrenic or Schizotypal, or Schizoaffective types, perhaps with Histrionic Personality dynamics as well.  :shrug:





Love it, very good explanation.  Except I feel in ancient times the "schizotypical features" of intoxication were understood in other ways.  Like people who can see energies or read and tell are sorta schizo in modern times but back then they might have been  a part of a sort of priesthood.  This would probably still be widely true if the purity of intent was never a problem, except now you have so much corruption in religion that the fucking secret societies have to hold people accountable.  it's sorta sad really.


--------------------




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:sun:Dreams are the fuel of the soul:sun:

:peace:

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