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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Political Philosophy Game
    #1212790 - 01/12/03 06:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I (like many others I'm sure) am getting tired of the same old arguments, the same old ideological fault lines being played out in this forum day after day, week after week, month after month.  So I would like to propose the following diversion:

The Political Philosophy Game

Every player is allowed to submit ONE and ONLY ONE principle of organization or rule that defines the "right", the "good", the "just", or the "ideal" State.  Once a principle has been submitted, it cannot be submitted again (multiple votes for the same principle do not give more weight).

Every submitted principle will  be considered valid (unless vetoed) and be incorporated into the mock "Constitution".

Instead of submitting a principle, a player may choose to use his or her ballot to "veto" a principle that has already been submitted.  Once a principle has been vetoed, it cannot be submitted again, and the player who proferred the veto is ineligble to submit a principle of his or her own.

Some principles will logically contradict one another, even though the second of the two was not necessarily submitted as a "veto" of the first.  In such cases every effort will be made to accomodate compromise versions of the two principles, if such a thing is possible.  If it is impossible, the two principles will cancel one another out (the second principle acting there as a de facto "veto").

In general, the game will be more interesting if the submitted principles are neither too specific nor too broad.  If somebody submits, for example, that "The best State is no State" (i.e., pure Anarchy), most of the other principles (which logically presume the existence of a State of SOME sort) will contradict it and essentially render it pointless.  On the other hand, if somebody submits something like "15% of government revenue should be spent on Medicare" we are leaving the realm of principles and entering the realm of policy.

I would imagine that the nature of the game will result in very few principles actually surviving until the very end.  In fact, I think there's a very real possibility that NO principles will survive to the very end.  But if a few of them do, it will be interesting to discover that there might be a few things that we all agree on.  Most of the surviving principles will probably tend to be pretty unoffensive and milquetoast, but hey, that's the nature of committee work, right?  One interesting feature of this game is that it gives you a chance to consider what is the single most important political idea you embrace.  If you could take only one political principle to a desert island, what would it be?  :grin: (I hope you all got that)

In order to keep this somewhat manageable, all who wish to participate must register beforehand (by making a post stating their intention to participate).  After about a week or so I think we can close the registration process, after which no new participants will be allowed in.  This is to prevent last-minute "tweaking" by way of sock-puppets, etc.  Also to keep the time frame manageable.

A reminder to all: this is a GAME and neither I nor any other reasonable person will think for a second that what emerges from all of this will be anything even remotely resembling a humanly possible form of government.  As this is meant to be a game and a diversion, this thread will NOT be the place for debate or argument concerning the principles involved.  In case you haven't noticed, there are hundreds of other threads in which people do just that, and you are always free to start hundreds more if you are so inclined.  If you want to start spinoff threads based on the principles submitted, be my guest but don't bring the debate in here.

If any of you have suggestions for making this game better, please post them.  This was just a random idea I had and it's still in rough shape.  Any suggestions for fine-tuning the game will be heartily appreciated.

So anybody up for it? 


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OfflineLarrythescaryrex
teardrop on the fire
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Registered: 07/19/00
Posts: 10,985
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1212851 - 01/12/03 06:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm in.


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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OfflineDilauded
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Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1212861 - 01/12/03 06:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

me too


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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1212939 - 01/12/03 07:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Great Idea, I'm in, or I'll try to be. :wink:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisiblePeachMan
Buster

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 2,844
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1218469 - 01/14/03 03:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i'm down


--------------------
Santa Claus ain't legal-- and he's around.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1218491 - 01/14/03 03:39 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like fun. Count me in.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1316720 - 02/18/03 11:02 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Alright man, you got me all excited then left without a trace, you gave me intellectual blue balls, bastard.


Lets start this thing up here.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1316726 - 02/18/03 11:04 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds like this could be interesting...count me in.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1316733 - 02/18/03 11:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

can i play?


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Anonymous

Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1316737 - 02/18/03 11:10 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The customary dot of approval: .


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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: Rono]
    #1316742 - 02/18/03 11:17 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Well I bumped this thread in hopes of getting Echo's attention, seeing as it was his Idea. I will PM him, and if I don't get a response in a couple of days, then I say we pirateer his Idea and make it our own.


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/18/02
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Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1316785 - 02/18/03 11:41 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I'm in...but only if I can be the Top Hat.  :wink: 


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1316896 - 02/18/03 12:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

im in. anyway, are you some sort of political activist? cause I am, looking for a higher good :smile:


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1317445 - 02/18/03 04:24 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry guys, I haven't checked the forum in a while and I didn't realize that there was renewed interest. Only four people or so replied to my original post and so I assumed that this was going to be a non-starter. But if you want to go ahead and try it, I'm game.

Here are the registered players so far:

Larrythescaryrex
Dilauded
Skikid16
PeachMan
I Fart Blue
Rono
mushmaster
stonedfish
MushyMay
Crobih

That makes 11 players with myself included. For this game to be any fun, I think we really need at least twice that number. I mean, we can still try it as is, but if we can round up another 10 people or so that would be great. With a game like this, the more the merrier. I suggest that we set the date to begin as Monday, February 24th. Between now and then I will try to fine tune the rules somewhat. I'm worried that later players will have a significant advantage over earlier players and I'm trying to figure out some kind of handicap system to make up for that.



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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 30 days
Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1317515 - 02/18/03 05:03 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I'm in!


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineSkikid16
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Registered: 06/27/02
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1317709 - 02/18/03 06:50 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds great.  Give it some time and I'm sure some more folks will mosey on in. 

Oh, some updates.

Larry is no longer posting, or at least he said he was going to be taking a hiatus from the shroomery.  (we miss you man, if you're reading this.)

And Diluded is no longer diluded, he is someone else, and I'm sure when he sees this thread he will join up.  You know who you are. :wink:


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1318032 - 02/18/03 11:55 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

luvdemshrooms:  come on!  You've got to be in this. :wink: 


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1318043 - 02/19/03 12:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I'll jump in the fray. I'm a little confused on how exatly this game will pan out but why not.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1325707 - 02/22/03 12:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

What are the numbers looking like now?


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: MushyMay]
    #1326591 - 02/22/03 12:16 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

We're holding steady at about 12. What the hell, let's just go ahead with it as planned. If it's interesting maybe more people might want to participate in a second round. If not, no harm done.


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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1327889 - 02/23/03 01:42 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

ok


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Here Goes! [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1331648 - 02/24/03 12:00 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

For your information, here are the rules again (with slight modifications in bold):

Every player is allowed to submit ONE principle of organization or rule that defines the "right", the "good", the "just", or the "ideal" State. Once a principle has been submitted, it cannot be submitted again (multiple votes for the same principle do not give more weight).

Every submitted principle will be considered valid (unless vetoed) and be incorporated into the mock "Constitution".

Instead of submitting a principle, a player may choose to use his or her ballot to "veto" a principle that has already been submitted. Once a principle has been vetoed, it cannot be submitted again, and the player who proferred the veto is ineligble to submit a principle of his or her own.

The first person to initiate play will be allowed to submit TWO principles. Players 2 & 3 will be able to submit ONE VETO IN ADDITION TO THEIR SUBMITTED PRINCIPLES. They may keep this veto in reserve and use it at any point in the game. The LAST player will NOT be allowed to submit a principle, only to veto an existing principle or simply to remain silent.

Some principles will logically contradict one another, even though the second of the two was not necessarily submitted as a "veto" of the first. In such cases every effort will be made to accomodate compromise versions of the two principles, if such a thing is possible. If it is impossible, the two principles will cancel one another out (the second principle acting there as a de facto "veto").

In general, the game will be more interesting if the submitted principles are neither too specific nor too broad. If somebody submits, for example, that "The best State is no State" (i.e., pure Anarchy), most of the other principles (which logically presume the existence of a State of SOME sort) will contradict it and essentially render it pointless. On the other hand, if somebody submits something like "15% of government revenue should be spent on Medicare" we are leaving the realm of principles and entering the realm of policy.

The following registered players are the only ones allowed to play in this round:

Larrythescaryrex (if he's around)
Dilauded (or whatever he's called now)
Skikid16
PeachMan
I Fart Blue
Rono
mushmaster
stonedfish
MushyMay
Crobih
pattern
Innvertigo

Since I'm wearing both hats as player and as referee, in the interests of fairness I will leave it to someone else to go first.

In any event, I envision this first round as a kind of trial run. If it is successful, maybe more people will participate next time around and the results will be considerably more interesting.

The floor is now open for the first player to submit his or her TWO principles of "The Ideal State" . . .




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Anonymous

Re: Here Goes! [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1331904 - 02/24/03 01:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

1: The right to do as desired in the privacy of one's home shall not be infringed, provided said action does not infringe on another's basic rights as a human being (life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness).

2: The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Some definitions-
Right: obvious, a principle which exists for every person under every circumstance
Infringe: in ANY way to violate or reduce the power of a right. If a right is not to be infringed, any laws containing said right are automatically illegal


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Here Goes! [Re: Anonymous]
    #1332030 - 02/24/03 02:08 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

3. freedom of religion, speech, and the press, and grants the right to petition for redress and to assemble peaceably.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Here Goes! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1332092 - 02/24/03 02:34 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Personal Freedom: drugs, prostitution, pornography, gambling, and firearms shall be legal for adults. no laws against obsenity or indecent exposure.


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Here Goes! [Re: ]
    #1332226 - 02/24/03 03:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Was that not too broad? It seems to overlap some of the other principles.


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Here Goes! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1332246 - 02/24/03 03:30 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

4) Every child, at the age of 16 and under has the right to free education.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (02/24/03 03:31 PM)


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 3 months, 30 days
Re: Here Goes! [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1332286 - 02/24/03 03:44 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

5) All peaceful acts shall be legal. A peaceful act is defined as the action of a person which does not harm another person.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


Edited by pattern (02/24/03 03:46 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
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Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Here Goes! [Re: pattern]
    #1332986 - 02/24/03 11:40 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

kinda broad i would say


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1333900 - 02/25/03 07:49 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Innvertigo is the 2nd player and is therefore entitled to a veto later on in the game, should he choose to exercise it.

I believe MushyMay is correct that mushmaster's principle simply restates, more or less, the principles enumerated by stonedfish and Innvertigo. I would therefore recommend to mushmaster that he make good use of his turn and submit a different principle.

This being the case, Rono is officially the 3rd player and is therefore also entitled to a veto later in the game, should he choose to exercise it.

Pattern's principle is problematic because it does not adequately define "harm." Does economic fraud count as "harm" or not? Why or why not? I would like to invite Pattern to define his principle more fully before we decide whether it is too broad or not. Pattern may wish to stick to his principle as stated, but that presents a big temptation to somebody else to veto it.


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Anonymous

Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1334254 - 02/25/03 09:25 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

ok. i recind my ammendment. i will use mine to veto the amendment that "all peaceful acts be legal"... on the grounds that business fraud is peaceful, polluting is peaceful, etc.


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Progress Report [Re: ]
    #1334393 - 02/25/03 10:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I'm using my vote to veto stonedfish's 2nd principle:

2: The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Progress Report [Re: MushyMay]
    #1334523 - 02/25/03 10:53 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

uh oh...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
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Re: Here Goes! [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1334566 - 02/25/03 11:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Here are the principles still standing:

1: The right to do as desired in the privacy of one's home shall not be infringed, provided said action does not infringe on another's basic rights as a human being (life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness).

2. freedom of religion, speech, and the press, and grants the right to petition for redress and to assemble peaceably.

3. Every child, at the age of 16 and under has the right to free education.

To this I will add my own principle:

4. Political leaders shall be chosen by democratic majority election. The privilege (not right) to vote is contingent upon: A) reaching the age of majority, and B) passing a basic competency test of functional literacy and knowledge of the constitution of the land. The test will not be prohibitively difficult: just basic functional literacy and knowledge of the key principles.






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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1334602 - 02/25/03 11:19 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I just want to give everyone a reminder that once a principle has been vetoed, it cannot be brought back to life by virtue of a second submission by somebody else. The purpose of this game is not actually to create an ideal state (we don't have the means at our disposal to do that anyway) but rather to try to find out what basic principles are minimally acceptable to everyone, in order to find the common ground that we all share.

I'm also beginning to think that since so few people seem to be participating, maybe we should try giving everybody TWO principles to submit (three for stonedfish, since he went first) just to make things a little more interesting and complex. What do you think?


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
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Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1334612 - 02/25/03 11:23 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

or we could just include everyone in the political forum...not just those on the list...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Progress Report [Re: Rono]
    #1334648 - 02/25/03 11:33 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

or we could just include everyone in the political forum...not just those on the list...




That's a possibility, but it would change the dynamics of the game completely. Random folks could just come along vetoing everything in sight, the game would become more one of strategy than of finding common principles, and there would also be the problem of knowing when to stop--set an arbitrary deadline, maybe? For this round, my feeling is we should stick to the registered players. Next round we can open it up to the whole forum and see what happens.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1334676 - 02/25/03 11:40 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i'd say only include those that actually debate in this forum.....dare say: post count?...or sumthin'

we all know who comes around a lot.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (02/25/03 11:42 AM)


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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1334800 - 02/25/03 12:25 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

1. full transparency of all the state stuff.
2. drugs for everyone, except underage and pregnents.
3. internet in every home :wink:


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Progress Report [Re: Crobih]
    #1335019 - 02/25/03 01:32 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I appreciate your enthusiasm, crobih, but you need to limit yourself to one PRINCIPLE. I don't know what you mean by "drugs for everyone." Do you mean the state should actually PROVIDE people with drugs? Well, that would be a first. Your first idea sounds pretty good--full transparency for all state deliberations and actions. That may create some problems in terms of national security, so you may want to revise it a bit, but anyway it's your call. In any event, please try to limit yourself to ONE.


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1335026 - 02/25/03 01:34 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

i'd say only include those that actually debate in this forum.....dare say: post count?...or sumthin'

we all know who comes around a lot.




That's definitely a good idea for the next round. My feeling is we should just wrap up this round as soon as possible and treat it as a trial run. Next round will be open to all forum "regulars" (you know who you are).


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1335031 - 02/25/03 01:35 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Ok! Here is my second proposal:

b) All citizens are innocent until proven guilty. In accordance with this principle, all citizens who are brought to trial, shall only pay their expenses of defense if proven guilty. If proven innocent, that citizen shall receive full reimbursement from the government.


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Re: Progress Report [Re: pattern]
    #1336399 - 02/25/03 11:51 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

My second proposal is as follows.

all govermnment controlled social programs and laws will be voted on by the people (majority rule) while holding the right to veto any past programs or laws that the public deems unnessesary, corrupt or innefficient by a voted on proposal.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (02/26/03 07:59 AM)


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Re: Political Philosophy Game [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1336997 - 02/26/03 06:07 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Any Law Enforcement personel, Government agent, Politician, Member Of Congress or The House of Representitives or Government employee, whether on a federal, stale or local level, that commits a crime against the people of freedome of the people shall be tried for acts of treason, minimum sentanceing guidelins shall be not less that 3 times that of a civilian or a penalty of DEATH, upon conviction.

I'm tired of those fuckers getting away with everything, they are supposed to UPHOLD the law, not break it so the punishment should be more severe

Prisoner#1


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1337183 - 02/26/03 07:48 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


I still have 2 vetos left (1 by being the second poster and 1 as my default)




Hi Inny, I'm sorry if I didn't make the rules completely clear. According to the original rules, most players only get EITHER one principle OR one veto (now that we've changed the rules a bit, everyone gets two). Since you were the number two player, you are allowed ONE VETO ONLY in addition to your two principles.

I hope this clarifies things, and sorry again for the confusion.


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Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1337202 - 02/26/03 07:58 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

AIGHT..no prob


--------------------

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Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1338260 - 02/26/03 02:55 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'm also beginning to think that since so few people seem to be participating, maybe we should try giving everybody TWO principles to submit (three for stonedfish, since he went first) just to make things a little more interesting and complex.  What do you think? 




anyway. drugs for everyone is THE Principle. Do not try to understand it in any other transparency shit.

third: internet in every home can pass considering the fact you cant count  :cool:


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1338317 - 02/26/03 03:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Can we get a round up of where we're up to?


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Progress Report [Re: MushyMay]
    #1339859 - 02/27/03 07:20 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Can we get a round up of where we're up to?




Sure thing.

1: The right to do as desired in the privacy of one's home shall not be infringed, provided said action does not infringe on another's basic rights as a human being (life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness).

2. freedom of religion, speech, and the press, and grants the right to petition for redress and to assemble peaceably.

3. Every child, at the age of 16 and under has the right to free education.

4. Political leaders shall be chosen by democratic majority election. The privilege (not right) to vote is contingent upon: A) reaching the age of majority, and B) passing a basic competency test of functional literacy and knowledge of the constitution of the land. The test will not be prohibitively difficult: just basic functional literacy and knowledge of the key principles.

5. All citizens are innocent until proven guilty. In accordance with this principle, all citizens who are brought to trial, shall only pay their expenses of defense if proven guilty. If proven innocent, that citizen shall receive full reimbursement from the government.

6. All govermnment controlled social programs and laws will be voted on by the people (majority rule) while holding the right to veto any past programs or laws that the public deems unnessesary, corrupt or innefficient by a voted on proposal.

7. Any Law Enforcement personel, Government agent, Politician, Member Of Congress or The House of Representitives or Government employee, whether on a federal, stale or local level, that commits a crime against the people of freedome of the people shall be tried for acts of treason, minimum sentanceing guidelins shall be not less that 3 times that of a civilian or a penalty of DEATH, upon conviction.

8. Full legalization of drugs for everyone.

9. Full transparency of all government decisions and deliberations.















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Anonymous

Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1340385 - 02/27/03 10:09 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So what are the new posting rules now?


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Anonymous]
    #1340523 - 02/27/03 10:55 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So what are the new posting rules now?




Everyone gets an additional principle, so you still have one coming to you.
Posting for this round is still limited to the people who are registered. Once we finish this up, we'll try again with all forum regulars invited.


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Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1340582 - 02/27/03 11:09 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Okay......my next proposal is...

Each citizen is allowed to select which government department gets their income tax dollars each year.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Anonymous

Re: Progress Report [Re: pattern]
    #1340690 - 02/27/03 11:40 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

OK my third will be an amendment to this one:

All citizens are innocent until proven guilty. In accordance with this principle, all citizens who are brought to trial, shall only pay their expenses of defense if proven guilty. If proven innocent, that citizen shall receive full reimbursement from the government.

This principle will extend to civil lawsuits. If one is sued but the jury decides in his/her favor, the (suing party) will be required to fully reemburse the defendant for lost wages, travel expenses, legal expenses, and any other expense incurred during the lawsuit.


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Anonymous]
    #1340906 - 02/27/03 01:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This principle will extend to civil lawsuits. If one is sued but the jury decides in his/her favor, the (suing party) will be required to fully reemburse the defendant for lost wages, travel expenses, legal expenses, and any other expense incurred during the lawsuit. 




I like it!  :laugh:  I think the legal system will be more prudent with rules like these.  An end to frivilous lawsuits. 


--------------------
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Re: Progress Report [Re: pattern]
    #1340975 - 02/27/03 02:01 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

and lawyers would actually have to tell the truth...


--------------------

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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1341768 - 02/27/03 11:48 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i've got an itchy "Veto" finger...someone put down somthing i can kill :grin:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (02/27/03 11:48 PM)


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1341983 - 02/28/03 03:30 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Tell me about it...I was hoping it was going to be one of yours that I used my veto on... :wink:


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Rono]
    #1342072 - 02/28/03 04:25 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i was going to veto your Income tax plan (still thinking about it) because i feel that income tax is stealing the peoples' money but i'm going to hold of until i see if there are any wacky libbie proposals.


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1342081 - 02/28/03 04:33 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

So you don't think there should be ANY taxes?...How do you propose to pay for your right wing war machine?  :smirk:


--------------------
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Rono]
    #1342087 - 02/28/03 04:37 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

How do you propose to pay for your right wing war machine? 



we've got enough guns as it is...oh wait that right to defend ourselves got vetoed by Mushymay :smirk:

I like the Sales tax idea, flat tax etc., but i do like your idea of having the tax payer choose where that money goes.  If anything i would probably restructure it so as to not take away funding towards national defense so much that it is useless.  Who knows, possibly inacting a minimum needed clause. :confused:


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1343214 - 02/28/03 02:14 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say you can't defend yourself, you just have to do it without firearms :smile: 


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Re: Progress Report [Re: MushyMay]
    #1343218 - 02/28/03 02:15 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

same thing....


--------------------

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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Progress Report [Re: MushyMay]
    #1352922 - 03/05/03 02:23 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know what happened to this game, maybe everyone has given up on it??

Here is my second principle anyway:

-The government will not use propaganda to brainwash its own citizens (this fits in with the total transparency of state.)


--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Anonymous

Re: Progress Report [Re: MushyMay]
    #1353027 - 03/05/03 03:40 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I am in complete and total control


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Re: Progress Report [Re: ]
    #1353858 - 03/06/03 04:07 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i'd use my veto power if you try to be in control.. :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1354014 - 03/06/03 05:13 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

aw, come on... i'll do a good job, i promise. trust me.... ?


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Offlinepsilo25
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1354022 - 03/06/03 05:16 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Come on, I don't think mushmaster wouldn't make such a bad leader.  Maybe he'd give us all some of those mushrooms he's got there in his avatar! :wink: 


--------------------
Stand up for your freedoms, join the fight against the War on Drugs!

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Offlinepattern
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Re: Progress Report [Re: ]
    #1432660 - 04/05/03 11:04 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

> I am in complete and total control

Prove it


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Anonymous]
    #1432895 - 04/06/03 01:23 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

In the interest of flexibility for changing times and situations, all laws and amendments shall be reviewed on a regular basis (4 years?) for constitutionality, efficiency, and applicability . Those that are found to be in violation shall be submitted for debate for the purpose of amending or repealing.


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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1432899 - 04/06/03 01:25 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

In the interest of flexibility for changing times and situations, all laws and amendments shall be reviewed on a regular basis (4 years?) for constitutionality, efficiency, and applicability . Those that are found to be in violation shall be submitted for debate for the purpose of amending or repealing.



This would repeal my second amendment RKBA under democrat review at some point. Veto.


--------------------
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And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1432908 - 04/06/03 01:37 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Or it might repeal any laws that infringe on it. How can anything that does not allow for changing times survive.

There should be a second required for new submissions and vetoes to avoid frivolous additions and vetoes.



--------------------
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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1432944 - 04/06/03 03:06 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

The bill of rights does not need to change over time. My veto was not frivilous.

I propose to adopt the US bill of rights in their entirety along with another amendment to prohibit narcotic prohibition.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1432991 - 04/06/03 03:57 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

I thought we were creating a constitution and therefor not subject to change. Only subsequent laws and amendments after a ratified constitution. How about if subsequent laws and amendments expire after ten years if not repassed. I'm trying to eliminate clutter without creating too much overhead.

I didn't necessarily mean that your veto was frivolous (although it made me think of it), I just think seconds are a important part of the process.


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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1432993 - 04/06/03 04:01 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Amendments become a ratified part of the constitution. The review process shouldn't apply to the consitution itslf unless you want a whole new constitutional convention every X years.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1433012 - 04/06/03 04:37 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So we will end up with a bunch of old useless law over time the same as we have now. Ok, we'll need lots of lawyers to sort it out.


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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1433015 - 04/06/03 04:40 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So we will end up with a bunch of old useless law over time the same as we have now. Ok, we'll need lots of lawyers to sort it out.



That would be bad. I have a solution though.

I propose that the lawyers be kept in cages in Cuba.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1433022 - 04/06/03 04:50 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

None the less, a constitution that can't evolve is doomed. Ability to change according to the will of the people is important part of democracy. Otherwise you might as well have a dictatorship.


--------------------
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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1433024 - 04/06/03 04:55 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

None the less, a constitution that can't evolve is doomed. Ability to change according to the will of the people is important part of democracy. Otherwise you might as well have a dictatorship.



Bunk. We're not making a democracy, we're making a constitutional republic.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1433033 - 04/06/03 05:44 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1433422 - 04/06/03 12:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

if he doesn't veto it, i will.  :smirk:


--------------------

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Anonymous

Re: Progress Report [Re: pattern]
    #1433489 - 04/06/03 12:53 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

"I am in complete and total control" was my amendment. no one vetoed it and 30 days went by since the last post in the game, so i think it's safe to say that the outcome of the game is "mushmaster rules the nation as the absolute leader". game over guys.

and it's Der Mushfurer now.


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Re: Progress Report [Re: ]
    #1433520 - 04/06/03 01:20 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

it's time for a regime change in Mush-Land....


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1433898 - 04/06/03 05:37 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

So interest petered out but it seems to be back again. Here is the constitution so far:

1: The right to do as desired in the privacy of one's home shall not be infringed, provided said action does not infringe on another's basic rights as a human being (life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness).

2. freedom of religion, speech, and the press, and grants the right to petition for redress and to assemble peaceably.

3. Every child, at the age of 16 and under has the right to free education.

4. Political leaders shall be chosen by democratic majority election. The privilege (not right) to vote is contingent upon: A) reaching the age of majority, and B) passing a basic competency test of functional literacy and knowledge of the constitution of the land. The test will not be prohibitively difficult: just basic functional literacy and knowledge of the key principles.

5. All citizens are innocent until proven guilty. In accordance with this principle, all citizens who are brought to trial, shall only pay their expenses of defense if proven guilty. If proven innocent, that citizen shall receive full reimbursement from the government.

6. All govermnment controlled social programs and laws will be voted on by the people (majority rule) while holding the right to veto any past programs or laws that the public deems unnessesary, corrupt or innefficient by a voted on proposal.

7. Any Law Enforcement personel, Government agent, Politician, Member Of Congress or The House of Representitives or Government employee, whether on a federal, stale or local level, that commits a crime against the people of freedome of the people shall be tried for acts of treason, minimum sentanceing guidelins shall be not less that 3 times that of a civilian or a penalty of DEATH, upon conviction.

8. Full legalization of drugs for everyone.

9. Full transparency of all government decisions and deliberations.

10. Each citizen is allowed to select which government department gets their income tax dollars each year.

11. All citizens are innocent until proven guilty. In accordance with this principle, all citizens who are brought to trial, shall only pay their expenses of defense if proven guilty. If proven innocent, that citizen shall receive full reimbursement from the government.

12. -The government will not use propaganda to brainwash its own citizens (this fits in with the total transparency of state.)



At this point I guess the game is open to all Political forum regulars, since we couldn't really keep things moving along with just the registered players. All new players are allowed either one principle or one veto. Registered players had more than that but now that it is pretty late in the game it would be unfair to give new players more than that. Registered players may still exercise their remaining principles or vetoes. Rail gun, as a new player, expended his one vote on vetoing mntlfngrs. Since he wasn't aware of the rules for new players, he can either maintain that veto or submit his vote for adopting the US Bill of Rights. One or the other but not both.



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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1434474 - 04/06/03 09:17 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

if he doesn't veto it, i will.  :smirk: 




You'll veto what, that link? It was just for the benifit of Rail Gun. Not meant to be an addition. I think my one turn was already used and vetoed already. I certainly would suggest adding that link, at least not all the religious bunk in it.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1435350 - 04/07/03 04:58 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

i was talking about the idea of a liquid document that changes with time. That's the problem we are having today.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1435364 - 04/07/03 05:11 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

It is the reason it lasted. The problem we are having today is that the people quit paying attention to it and quit tending it, expected it to take care of itself. In the mean time corporation werer tending it.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1435372 - 04/07/03 05:21 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The problem we are having today is that the people quit paying attention to it and quit tending it




The problem isn't the people not paying attention, it's the politicians that don't pay attention to it and the masses are usually not powerful enough, or smart enough, to hold them accountable.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Progress Report [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1435376 - 04/07/03 05:25 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

8. Full legalization of drugs for everyone.
9. Full transparency of all government decisions and deliberations.

10. Each citizen is allowed to select which government department gets their income tax dollars each year.



Line item vetos.

Item 8: Little kids should be at least grade 3 or age 12 whichever is less, to buy crack cocaine.

Item 9: Military, nuclear, and state secrets must be secret.

Item 10: People are not responsible to dictate themselves what parts of government will be funded. They would play favorites.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


Edited by Ellis Dee (04/07/03 05:29 AM)


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1435380 - 04/07/03 05:29 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

The problem we are having today is that the people quit paying attention to it and quit tending it




The problem isn't the people not paying attention, it's the politicians that don't pay attention to it and the masses are usually not powerful enough, or smart enough, to hold them accountable.




You basicly prove my point. The people need to pay attention and hold them acountable. They need to pay attention and learn about politics. Who elects the politicians? The people.

All issues will be voted on by the people. IE no politicians
All voters will be required to attend deliberations on all issues before voting

PS I know my turn is over so these are not intended as additions.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


Edited by mntlfngrs (04/07/03 06:02 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Progress Report [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #1435418 - 04/07/03 06:04 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

You basicly prove my point.



how? I just don't think that basic human rights (like the bill of rights) shouls be messed with.

Quote:

The people need to pay attention and hold them acountable.



how is making the constitution liquid going to fullfill this?

Quote:

All issues will be voted on by the people.



you'r just basicaslly making a run for a Democracy. I am not in favor of a democracy rather a Representative republic where the politicians are actually held accountable, by laws that we have the ability (in this game) to enforce.

Quote:

All issues will be voted on by the people. IE no politicians
All voters will be required to attend deliberations on all issues before voting




required? So much for the free society. I do like the idea of educated voters but making it required is touchy.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Re: Progress Report [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1435434 - 04/07/03 06:23 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

That is why I previously said to make the rights as part of a solid unchangeable constitution and have amendment seperate in a flexable section.

The fluidity doesn't acomplish it, the mandatort education on issues does.

Eligable voters are not required to vote but if they do they most educate themselvs first. Your still free not to.


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