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InvisibleZen Peddler
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All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens??
    #1212713 - 01/12/03 07:40 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

I thought Id make people aware of a study that is currently being conducted using protein and DNA analysis combined with spore intercompatability studies of woodloving psilocybes from around the world - chiefly Ps.Bohemica, Ps.Azurescens, Ps.Cyanescens, Ps.Subaeruginosa, Ps.Eucalypta, and a number of other woodloving species.
The original aim of the study was to reject Guzman's delineation of Ps.Subaeruginosa into four entities by using both assen. lectotype specimens of all four for microscopic characteristics and live mushrooms fruits grown from culture.
Not only has become apparent that we are dealing with one main entity for all Australian specimens, but that all are comparable to Ps.Cyanescens. This point is also made by Peter Buchanan in 1993?. This conclusion has been drawn not only because of macroscopic similarities, but from protein and Dna examinations.
The study now also includes Bohemica and Azurescens with the direct aim of demonstrating that these are all type specimens of Ps.Cyanescens.
So in other words, if the contention is proved, many previous delineated Psilocybes will have been delineated incorrectly.


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Edited by Zen Peddler (01/12/03 07:44 PM)


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InvisibleRoadkill
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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1212742 - 01/12/03 07:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Very interesting


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PM the names with on there names, that means they have mushrooms for sale.



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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1212843 - 01/12/03 08:31 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

That?s the same stuff Kriegelsteiner has been claiming for the last 9 years.
I have the impression though that the aothor only looks at the microscopic characteristics and completely denies the big macroscopic differences.

Here?s the document, it?s in german though:
http://www.fungifun.org/Studien_zum_Psilocybe-cyanescens-Komplex_in_Europa/

S u m m a r y : Following recent collections of members of the Psilocybe cyanescens complex made in West Germany, Czechoslovakia, Austria and Sicily, and as a result of studies of P. cyanescens (collected in the Netherlands) and of P. serbica (type collection) the original and the subsequent descriptions of_Hypholoma cyanescens Maire 1928, Psilocybe cyanescens Wakefield 1946, P. serbicaMoser & Horak 1968, and Sebek 1975, 1983 are compared.
There could be found no significant distinguishing characters neither morphologically nor ecologically which would justify the maintenance of several separate species. Hence, the author considers
them conspecific.


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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Anno]
    #1212886 - 01/12/03 08:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

If they'll make interfertility tests that they'll solve the mystery.
I would generally prefer less different species, because current fungal taxonomy is a real nightmare.


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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: zeronio]
    #1212988 - 01/12/03 10:52 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

its all white rot to me  :grin: 


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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1214398 - 01/13/03 12:43 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Can't wait to see the results of the Tests.

ARE THEY GONNA USE TYPE COLLECTION SPECIMENS? Wasn't that the problem with the Australian woodlover controversy.



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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1214978 - 01/13/03 04:16 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

If I remember Stamets correctly isn't the English "Wakefeild" phenotype lacking in pleurocystidia and the PNW collections rich in these celluar structures?It is my understanding that many of the taxonomic differences about this species complex revolves around this.Am I correct in this?
It seems that species may be a mutable concept for some of the species complex varieties such as certain Pleurotus and P.cyan.
One wonders if P.hispanica will be reclassed as a variety of semillanceata due to their many similarities?
As with Cannabis much error has creeped into classifying Genus psilocybe.F/I Cannabis is a multivariable phenotype single species;Cannabis sativa,with 3 recognized distinct varieties,var.sativa var.indica and var.ruderalis.
So I believe with P. cyanescens that there exists many varietals within the species so P.azurescens becomes Psilocybe cyanescens var.azurescens or var.bohemica,perhaps even var.subaruginosa.Interfertility and viability of offspring may not delineate between species varieties as it does between distinct species.At any rate WR will not be changing any names I have trouble keeping it all straight as it is :grin:WR 


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Edited by whiterasta (01/14/03 02:58 AM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: whiterasta]
    #1219173 - 01/14/03 08:43 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Australiana, Eucalypta and Tasmaniana were delineated primarily on pluerocystidia differences - Australiana with lageniform to lechyniform, Tasmaniana with forked c.cystidia and eucalypta with mucronate and a few variations. Subaeruginosa was delineated from these three in Guzman's reply to Chang and Mills where he described chocolate-pigmented pleurocystidia at odds with the others which have hyaline p.cystidia. Guzman came out to Australia and was provided access to around 12 type specimens of Subaeruginosa as described and assec. by Cleland in 1927. He examined ONE specimen and determined that it had brown pluerocystidia. thus he delineated it as well.
No one eles has ever located a specimen of Subaeruginosa with pigmented pluerocystidia. Buchanan examined six of Clelands other specimens and found only hyaline pluerocystidia. This indicated that Australiana and Subaeruginosa where the same mushroom with the same spore size and cystidia (lageniform/ventricose/lechyniform/hyaline) as Cleland had already described.
Chang and Mills examined a type specimen of Tasmaniana used by Guzman and no forked c.cystidia were found. As its spores were the same it was returned to its proper identification as Ps.Subaeruginosa (same spore size and cystidia.)
So Chang and Mills did spore compatibility and isozyme analysis on there true version of Subaeruginosa and the last of Guzman's mushroom - Eucalypta. (this mushroom was macroscopically different unlike the above three, has smaller spores and unique cystidia.)
Both mushrooms were rigourously identified using Guzman's descriptions and were found to be intercompatible. Again the same species.
Buchanan in New Zealand found that Subaeruginosa there ranged from Guzman's Eucalypta to Guzman's Australiana and were not fixed as one or the other. He accepts Chang and Mills and also rejects Guzman's delineation.
He also explains that Ps.Makarorae was only slightly different from Ps.Caerulipes - delineated due to cystidia and location alone. Aucklandii was extrememly similar to Ps.Zapotecorum (sp?) and was delineated purely on location and (wait for this!) an old photo of Zapotecorum indicating a more petite mushroom!
My friend who is a PhD student who I have eventually conned into helping me has managed to get two of his friends interested in the study and its proceeding accordingly. Buchanan suggests that as Ps.Cyanescens in Europe and America is more significantly different microscopically (europe lacking pluerocystidia - america with pluerocystidia) than Ps.Australiana and Ps.Cyanescens, that they could be very similar - which Guzman conceeds.
So the study included ps.cyanescens from US as well as Ps.Bohemica and Ps.Azurescens. From what they are telling me, most of the delineation in Psilocybes is inappropriate and constructed purely on locational macroscopic and often flawed microscopic details - which alone should not delineate botanical species.


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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Anno]
    #1219183 - 01/14/03 08:46 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

'I have the impression though that the aothor only looks at the microscopic characteristics and completely denies the big macroscopic differences.'
For Botanical reference most of the macroscopic differences between Psilocybes - especially in the Cyanescens family are not significant.
Many of Guzman's psilocybes are delineated purely on minute microscopic differences and not macroscopic.
Lastly, Gartz did a study on intercompatibility of Ps.Azurescens, Ps.Cyanescens and Ps.Bohemica - can anyone source this?? Stamets quotes it in his book.


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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1219468 - 01/14/03 11:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

You mean this?

"Psilocybe azurescens generally resembles Psilocybe bohemica Sebek, Psilocybe
cyanofibrillosa Guzman & Stamets, Psilocybe cyanescens Wakefield, Psilocybe
eucalypta Guzman & Walting, Psilocybe mairei Singer, Psilocybe serbica Moser
& Horak and Psilocybe collybioides Singer & Smith. Complete reproductive
barriers have been found be one of the authors (Jochen Gartz) between
Psilocybe azurescens and P. bohemica as well as between P. azurescens and
Pacific Northwest European collections of P.cyanescens."

http://www.tacethno.com/info/psilocybe/astoria.txt


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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Anno]
    #1224907 - 01/16/03 11:17 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

The actual study itself. No matter Ive managed to find it.


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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1224926 - 01/16/03 11:29 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Online? Or in paper?


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: All woodlovers are Ps.Cyanescens?? [Re: Anno]
    #1224951 - 01/16/03 11:47 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

in paper - lucky because we've found quite a resource of works in Canada of all places.
Id better stop nagging these guys though and just sit back and wait for the results.


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