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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Poid]
    #12133356 - 03/03/10 09:57 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Poid, try reading mythology without interpreting it literally.

If you are actually interested in the subject, a good place to start would be with reading 'The Power of Myth' by Joseph Campbell.



Also, It is quite silly to take religious texts literally (also known as "Fundamentalism"), which is what you seem to be doing.  Not all religious people are fundamentalists.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: lukeboots]
    #12133387 - 03/03/10 10:04 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

But you designed this thread only in relation to religion. It seems you think science is somehow exempt to the problems of trying to pin down a changing world.

That type of thing is found all over religions of the world--this thread is about that type of thing, and religions.

I'm not sure what you mean by "problems of trying to pin down a changing world". 



So in other words, religion was illogical because I NOW see that it was guided by faulty logic. And when it happens to my worldview, I can just claim that I'm revising, not that I made illogical conclusions like those silly religions

The difference between me and religions is that religions don't care to revise their ideas--that's what dogma is.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: lukeboots]
    #12133422 - 03/03/10 10:11 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Poid, try reading mythology without interpreting it literally.

If you are actually interested in the subject, a good place to start would be with reading 'The Power of Myth' by Joseph Campbell.


Thanks for the reference, but just because, when analyzing the logical soundness of mythological claims, I take the said claims literally (which is what one does when analyzing the logical soundness of claims), doesn't mean that I don't have my own personal non-literal symbolic interpretations of what the author of those claims was actually trying to say.



Also, It is quite silly to take religious texts literally (also known as "Fundamentalism"), which is what you seem to be doing.  Not all religious people are fundamentalists.

Most Christians actually believe that there is a "God" and that Jesus performed miracles, and don't believe that these things are symbolic of something else.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Poid]
    #12133455 - 03/03/10 10:19 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Religions have been changing since the dawn of time, wtf are you on about?
Yes, they cling throughout the process, but so does science :shrug:
No one revises until they're forced to.


I'm not sure what you mean by "problems of trying to pin down a changing world". 


Science is pinning down the world to what we can observe.
If we can't observe it, it misses the gaze of science.

What we will be able to observe in the future is anyone's guess.
Science tries to pin down the world in terms of what we can currently observe.
And those who try to observe "out of the box" type phenomena, are ostracized.
Further evidence of the same resistance to change as always.

Revisions happen, regardless of whether it be religion or science.
Eventually you reach a split -- where what once looked religious no longer resembles it.
And I'm pretty confident that if humans survive long enough, science too will drift to a point that we no longer recognize it as science.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblelukeboots
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Poid]
    #12133458 - 03/03/10 10:20 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

I certainly don't agree with most Christians, and that's ok.


As for your evaluation of the logical soundness of mythological "claims", well, that is something you'll have to work out for yourself.  Symbolic language is very tricky, and can be interpreted many ways.  I would urge you to keep your mind open to various viewpoints when reading mythology.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Kickle]
    #12133486 - 03/03/10 10:28 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Religions have been changing since the dawn of time, wtf are you on about?
Yes, they cling throughout the process, but so does science 
No one revises until they're forced to.


Religions change, but do they change because the logical soundness of their beliefs are challenged, and do they replace their illogical beliefs with logical ones? Hardly...

Once a scientific theory is found to be unsound, it is replaced by a sound one as soon as it is found; can you give an example where religion has done this?



And those who try to observe "out of the box" type phenomena, are ostracized.
Further evidence of the same resistance to change as always.


Religions ostracize people who have out-of-the-box ideas, too.



lukeboots, don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading mythology very much, but I see it for what it is--fiction.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 05:27 AM)

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Poid]
    #12133540 - 03/03/10 10:41 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Religions change, but do they change because the logical soundness of their beliefs are challenged

Sure. It often involves a lot of political wiggling and attempts to retain beliefs, but change comes, always.

"In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points....Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis." -- Pope John Paul II


As in other countries, Catholic schools in the United States teach evolution as part of their science curriculum. They teach the fact that evolution occurs and the modern evolutionary synthesis, which is the scientific theory that explains why evolution occurs. This is the same evolution curriculum that secular schools teach. Bishop DiLorenzo of Richmond, chair of the Committee on Science and Human Values in a December 2004 letter sent to all U.S. bishops: "...Catholic schools should continue teaching evolution as a scientific theory backed by convincing evidence. At the same time, Catholic parents whose children are in public schools should ensure that their children are also receiving appropriate catechesis at home and in the parish on God as Creator. Students should be able to leave their biology classes, and their courses in religious instruction, with an integrated understanding of the means God chose to make us who we are."[39]

do they replace their illogical beliefs with logical ones

Seems that way to me. :shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Kickle]
    #12133567 - 03/03/10 10:47 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Sure. It often involves...attempts to retain beliefs...

With science, it hardly, if ever does.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Kickle]
    #12133580 - 03/03/10 10:50 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Once a scientific theory is found to be unsound, it is replaced by a sound one as soon as it is found;

A publication that is controversial can expect to go through years and years and years of bickering before it can even consider being integrated. I'm currently working with research from the 80's that contradicts research from the 60's. The research from the 60's is still being used, because no one can fit the 80's stuff in. It's not that it isn't supported, it's that it doesn't "fit" with what we've been doing, so we just conveniently ignore it.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Kickle]
    #12133629 - 03/03/10 11:00 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

It's not that it isn't supported, it's that it doesn't "fit" with what we've been doing, so we just conveniently ignore it.

And what we've been doing is supported by years and years of studies and the evidence gathered from those studies, this is why sometimes it takes a while to integrate new information into existing theories.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: Poid]
    #12133643 - 03/03/10 11:03 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Sure. It often involves...attempts to retain beliefs...

With science, it hardly, if ever does.




bologna!
Research can be suppressed for hundreds of years. It just exists as a quiet whisper in the background, never gaining a real foothold because no one knows what to do with it given the current belief structure. Just as a religion will suppress and keep to a whisper anything that cannot readily be incorporated into it's belief structure.

Contradictory research seems to find a way into the mainstream by 1 of 2 means.
1) finding an explanation that bridges any contradictions that may have existed (see Catholicism and evolution)
2) overwhelming amounts of contradictory information begins to flow in, forcing action
  -- this is held at bay by ensuring that no funding goes to contradictory research (political wiggling, anyone?)

Edited by Kickle (03/03/10 11:14 AM)

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OfflineChemical Sandman
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Re: Ancient religions/mythology are/is generally regarded as nonsense... [Re: lukeboots]
    #12133983 - 03/03/10 11:56 AM (14 years, 29 days ago)

Quote:

lukeboots said:
Poid, try reading mythology without interpreting it literally.

If you are actually interested in the subject, a good place to start would be with reading 'The Power of Myth' by Joseph Campbell.



Also, It is quite silly to take religious texts literally (also known as "Fundamentalism"), which is what you seem to be doing.  Not all religious people are fundamentalists.




+1:thumbup:


--------------------
"It's that in me there is no sorcery, there is no anger, there are no lies. Because I don't have garbage, I don't have dust. The sickness comes out if the sick vomit. They vomit the sickness. They vomit because the mushrooms want them to. If the sick don't vomit, I vomit. I vomit for them and in that way the malady is expelled. The mushrooms have power because they are the flesh of God. And those that believe are healed. Those that do not believe are not healed."(Maria Sabina)

"Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres." (Albert Einstein)

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