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Offlinethe bizzle Happy Birthday!
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Registered: 04/14/09
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: Moo456]
    #12094821 - 02/25/10 11:46 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

MkUltra25 said:
bizzle, what differing amounts of cacti have you taken with differing amounts of Rue?





I've never had an accurate measurement, but

pretty much all different combinations. 
With the rue it was always by the capsule, 1-5.
5 was simply way more than necessary, I really don't recommend it in any situation, cacti or not.
I seemed to settle with 2 capsules most of the time but even just 1 seems to work all the same

and as for cacti, every different amount you can imagine, from very little to extreme amounts.
The most frightening experience was about 15 or so hours into a really large and potent dose of peruvianus, but I also think I used 5 caps rue that time
but I had a repeat of that frightening experience the next time, using less of each
I've also experienced cold tremors on pretty low doses of the combo, but it's really hard to say for sure that that wasn't from something else
although the cold tremors seems to be very common with this combo, and I've never gotten cold tremors from any ayahuasca-type experience



Quote:

Moo456 said:
Everyone will have a different sensitivity to it so I guess theres no sense in arguing over something we will never know the answer to. What I do know is that no one has ever died from it, and that I will take advantage of the combination because I tolerate it so well.





please, if you will, tell what kind of doses you have taken
particularly how high of a dose of cacti you have used in these combinations

or maybe you have used extracted mescaline, which would maybe not contain tyramine?


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: SummerDaisies]
    #12094876 - 02/25/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

SummerDaisies said:
yeah i am pretty sure its bad news man...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9484368



Quote:

SummerDaisies said:
yeah i am pretty sure its bad news man...

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9484368





lol kids do some R tard things. i totally had a e pill day after ayahuasca no prolbem but obvbiously it wasnt a roll face pill. you gota know what your working with. if one pill obviously rips you apart taking one whole pill with a maoi is gona be bad. in that case you would only want 1/8th of a pill - 1/4th of a pill something like that other wise your clearly ODing if this is gona make your pill 2-4 times a strong and one pill is more then enough obviously 2-4pills would be bad.

thats why its suggest molly be used that you know the potency of in small amounts. if you really wanna mix the two. any who cacti plus ayahuasca FTW more so then just plus caapi you gota know what your doing and be very familiar with all they plants your working with as well as be a competent brewer with all those factors in play you cant go wrong

you can totally use 1/3 or 1/2 the amount and get the same effect and duration

P.S. from me and all the ppl i have brewed for who loved it complication free




--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


Edited by thedudenj (02/25/10 12:02 PM)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: MkUltra25]
    #12095004 - 02/25/10 12:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

fun thing is mixing and matching to create unique enthobotanical fingerprint which may only suit oneself, to which all previous research is welcome and one should remain open to ideas including warnings, just as one should always understand that some plants like tropanes and such carry big no signs, listen to mother nature for she has created this need or desire, which she wouldn't have done if some means of fulfilling it was forever unavailable.  Lucky we humans are for our complexity of needs is easily satisfied by mother nature, and the ones not already fulfilled can add, subtract and multiply and voila, there's something for everone.  But everything is not for everybody by any means and one should -as matt dillion says in drugstore cowboy- be able to read the lables, read the signs....


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: eve69]
    #12095031 - 02/25/10 12:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

yeah datura is great when used right and medically


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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InvisibleMoo456
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Registered: 03/03/06
Posts: 4,591
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: the bizzle]
    #12095813 - 02/25/10 02:12 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:
please, if you will, tell what kind of doses you have taken
particularly how high of a dose of cacti you have used in these combinations

or maybe you have used extracted mescaline, which would maybe not contain tyramine?




Ive only taken in tea form. I always take at least 12" of cacti. Ive only taken up to 18". I did take 18" with syrian rue extract that was equal to 2-3g. I never experienced symptoms of hypertension from cacti alone, but later in the day breaking the diet yielded a headache even easier than usual. This was before I read about other peoples bad experiences. In the future I would only use 1.5g of syrian rue or less.

Unfortunately these dosages mean nothing because of how much the potency varies(of the cacti). I havnt taken what I would consider a heavy dose of cacti yet. I am not worried about higher doses with syrian rue though, because even when taking large doses of syrian rue with medium doses of cacti, there were no side effects. I imagine taking 1g of syrian rue with a large dose of cacti would be tolerable.


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Offlinejack_flack
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: Moo456]
    #12100163 - 02/26/10 05:03 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

search for "essential_psychedelic_guide/safety.shtml"


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: jack_flack]
    #12100647 - 02/26/10 08:58 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

dude with rue specially when using it with cacti dont got more then 1.5g thats more then enough for full MAO inhibiton any who use caapi caapi = maoi B  rue maoi A 


tryptamine broken down by maoi A

phen bronken down by maoi B


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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Offlinethe bizzle Happy Birthday!
the joke that no one spoke

Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: thedudenj]
    #12100700 - 02/26/10 09:13 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

is caapi safer with cacti?

i'm just trying to clarify...


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Edited by the bizzle (02/26/10 09:13 AM)


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: the bizzle]
    #12100708 - 02/26/10 09:15 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:
in other words... caapi is safer with cacti?

i'm just trying to clarify...




Caapi, when prepared properly, generally has a lot less body load and physical side effects then Rue.

The primary difference comes from the fact that Harmaline can be very harsh on the body, stomach & mind. Rue has tons of harmaline with some harmine whereas Caapi has almost no harmaline.

Caapi is mainly Harmine with some Tetrahydroharmine. Both are much gentler on the system then Harmaline as from Rue.


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:peace:    :peace:

  Earth's Essence


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Offlinethe bizzle Happy Birthday!
the joke that no one spoke

Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: CosmicLion]
    #12100785 - 02/26/10 09:33 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

well I know that, but I'm referring to the MAOI-A/B distinction, and how it interacts with the tyramine and whatever else may be a factor.  That, is something I am not too clear on


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: the bizzle]
    #12100985 - 02/26/10 10:02 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:
well I know that, but I'm referring to the MAOI-A/B distinction, and how it interacts with the tyramine and whatever else may be a factor.  That, is something I am not too clear on




Harmalas are short-term RIMA's "reversible inhibitors of MAO-A" meaning they don't cause the same strain on your MAO system as a pharmaceutical does.

Another perk to being reversible is that the food restrictions are not as tight. You can have some tyramine without the risk of dangerous interaction.

The tyramine scare w/ MAOI's is more applicable towards prescription versions, not harmalas.

Although many claim that an MAO-A inhibitor will not potentate mescaline, the proof is in the pudding.

:peace:


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:peace:    :peace:

  Earth's Essence


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Offlinethe bizzle Happy Birthday!
the joke that no one spoke

Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: CosmicLion]
    #12101153 - 02/26/10 10:37 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I am definitely well aware of reversible MAOI vs. pharmaceutical

and I definitely have plenty of first hand experience with MAOIs potentiating cacti, having done it at the very least, 20 times

but if you read my first post in this thread, you will also see that I've had first hand experience with how dangerous it can be, despite several times going just fine

It has been a few years, so it is hard for me to recall exactly all the factors that were involved, but I'm pretty sure i followed the MAOI diet pretty strictly each time, and it was only when I consumed massive amounts of cacti, regardless of how large or little of a dose of syrian rue, that both I and the person I did it with experienced symptoms of serotonin syndrome

So I am still undecided on this whole thing. :shrug:  I would like some hardcore proof that it is safe, but I find it hard to rely on anybody else's experiences being symptom-free, because many of my own experiences were as well. It seems like it was mostly (but not always) when I used a large enough dose of cacti, and mostly only 15+ hours into it, that things started to get severe. It also seemed possible (although there seems to be no science to back this up) that the symptoms became more common after having done it many many times, regardless of dose. But like I said, it's been quite a while, so I'm still not sure.

I also mentioned that I've heard of people in South America using San Pedro either with or the same day as ayahuasca, so that would suggest it might be safe, but I think they generally would use a lesser amount...so still :shrug:

I'd just like some concrete information on whether it is truly safe or not. I'd like to try it again myself, but I'd rather be brutally beaten than go through a hypertensive crisis while tripping that hard ever again


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OfflineCosmicLion
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: the bizzle]
    #12101307 - 02/26/10 11:02 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:

I'd just like some concrete information on whether it is truly safe or not.




Drinking Caapi w/ Pedro is an under-documented ritual that has only been perpetuated by those on the internet with enough know-how to try new combinations.

It's not like the FDA is running tests to see if Caapi is safe to mix with Pedro.

Maybe your expectation of a response is too stiff?

Finding CONCRETE information about Ayahuasca, beyond the few studies done by D. McKenna & colleagues, will be difficult. Even harder would be finding something "concrete" about an obscure uncommon combination of materials that has no established cultural history.

You've been given all the information out there, you have gathered opinions of those with direct experience, time to leave the world of preconception and established constructs while beginning to experiment and create your own conclusions.

Obviously it is safe enough as long as you use your head. Time to explore the uncharted territory!


--------------------
:peace:    :peace:

  Earth's Essence


Edited by CosmicLion (02/26/10 12:11 PM)


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Offlinethe bizzle Happy Birthday!
the joke that no one spoke

Registered: 04/14/09
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Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: CosmicLion]
    #12101866 - 02/26/10 12:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicLion said:
You've been given all the information out there, you have gathered opinions of those with direct experience, time to leave the world of preconception and established constructs while beginning to experiment and create your own conclusions.

Obviously it is safe enough as long as you use your head. Time to explore the uncharted territory!




Have you not read that I've done it over 20 times?


I've had a similar experience with morning glory. I've seen a lot of people say that Morning Glory + caapi = one of THE greatest trips possible

My first Morning Glory experience was with syrian rue, and that was the best trip of my life. The second time I tried that combo there were definite symptoms of a hypertensive crisis, and the same when I combined HBWR + rue. With the morning glory, I might venture to say there was a possibility that the negative interaction was caused by ingesting grinded seeds (something I have no need to do now that I've got a really good CWE method down), and it was caused by the unwanted alkaloids... but a hypertensive crisis is not something I'd like to dare to repeat, as much as these combos interest me.

But maybe if anybody here has done the cacti(or MG)+MAOI combo well over 20 times with not a single negative symptom, I might feel more comfortable about it


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Edited by the bizzle (02/26/10 12:40 PM)


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: the bizzle]
    #12104101 - 02/26/10 06:39 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

lol its not that its so much safer its that its stronger, also rue obviously is a less comfortable feel ppl are really taking way to much when they use 3g. in my works with brewing i found 1.5g of rue to be fully inducing of inhibition to clear the way fully for my brews


the real risk is you regular diet and how frequently your doing this.


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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Offlinethe bizzle Happy Birthday!
the joke that no one spoke

Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 6 days
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: thedudenj]
    #12106797 - 02/27/10 09:24 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

thedudenj said:
lol its not that its so much safer its that its stronger, also rue obviously is a less comfortable feel ppl are really taking way to much when they use 3g. in my works with brewing i found 1.5g of rue to be fully inducing of inhibition to clear the way fully for my brews




I already know this


Quote:


the real risk is you regular diet and how frequently your doing this.



please elaborate. Not on the regular diet part but on the frequency part. Are you saying that it is possible to build up negative effects over time?





and again, I would really like to try this combo again, but based on much personal experience with it, I am not so sure it is a good idea
Quote:


But maybe if anybody here has done the cacti(or MG)+MAOI combo well over 20 times with not a single negative symptom, I might feel more comfortable about it




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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: the bizzle]
    #12106888 - 02/27/10 09:40 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)



--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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Offlinethe bizzle Happy Birthday!
the joke that no one spoke

Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 6 days
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: thedudenj]
    #12107088 - 02/27/10 10:16 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

That isn't helping me at all, I have that list pretty much memorized


I am very familiar with that diet, I have done ayahuasca many times, and have combined cacti+MAOI at least 20 times

please re-read my last post, or all of my posts in this thread. I am looking for some new information or anything helpful that I am not thoroughly familiar with. If your point is about what that article says about tyramine, then thanks, but that is still not quite what I was asking


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Edited by the bizzle (02/27/10 10:19 AM)


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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: Question about San Pedro with an MAOI [Re: the bizzle]
    #12107164 - 02/27/10 10:31 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

HBWR  tend to give me hyper tension period MG tend not to


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours


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