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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Dilauded]
    #1219366 - 01/14/03 09:55 PM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Thanks.  :grin: 


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Skikid16]
    #1219523 - 01/15/03 01:08 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

wow....we agree


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Skikid16]
    #1219868 - 01/15/03 05:36 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

The billionaires are usually rich because they were great "coaches"

Fifty years ago maybe. These days if you run the company into the ground you still get a golden handshake worth millions.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1219947 - 01/15/03 06:11 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

It's not 'the state' as in some Orwelian or Comunist dictatorship nightmare. It's the democratic government



An unfettered democracy is nothing but tyranny of the majority. Should I happier that 51% of the people who vote decide to deprive me of my liberty as opposed to one individual depriving me of my liberty?

Quote:

You must believe in the concept of, of the people, by the people, for the people.



Instead of being accused of plagiarism, I give you this,
'I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which the will have.'
- Henry David Thoreau (Civil Disobedience)

Quote:

What's best for us as a whole.



Who defines 'what's best for us as a whole?'

Quote:

COME ON!!!! The billionaires have no legitimate claim to that kind of fortune. It was earned by the blood sweat and tears of their workers.



COME ON!!! Employees voluntarily accept employment with the terms offered by the employer, they are free to reject the agreement before starting and are free to leave at any time. COME ON!!! The owners/founders/managers of business are the ones who come up with ideas and develope them, invest capital, time and effort, then direct and plan what activities are necessary to make a business successful. Without them, the employees wouldn't even have the opportunity to get a job with the company. If the workers are the only source of labor, how is it that they cannot start their own business and reap the benefits of the risk, effort, creativity and planning put in just like those that you despise?

Quote:

Now, if you earn your income from 'capital', your not taxed.



In the U.S. you are.

Quote:

Even if we all had enough disposable income to 'invest', there would still be need for workers.



Agreed, that is what owners and managers of businees are as well, THEY WORK. If they just sat idle and didn't tend to things, they would eventually lose their business, the employees would lose their jobs, and the collectivists would have no one to leech off of. Sort of how communist countries go down the shitter.

Quote:

We can't all be capitalists...why aren't workers included in the formula?



We CAN all be capitalists, and most of us are. If a man buys work boots to use at his job, THAT IS capital. If a man buys a car to get him to and from work, THAT IS capital. If a man puts a portion of his earning in a bank account to accumulate for future purposes, THAT IS capital. Unless you exists on a subsistence level, your are to some degree a capitalist. The key to material improvement is to change your outlook from victimhood to one of recognizing the vast opportunities available if you are to conciously take charge of your own life and not rely on others to improve your material existence.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Evolving]
    #1220672 - 01/15/03 10:30 AM (19 years, 9 days ago)

Your last reply to me veers wildly from the topic at hand, which is the economic consequences of the latest Bush tax cut.

I believe that everyone is entitle to a tax cut, up to what they pay into the system. I hold no grudge against the wealthy for having earned more than me or the average taxpayer.

Huh? Who ever said anything about grudges? Don't let your imagination get away with you.

I'm not agreeing that this is true, I don't know that it is or isn't, but so what? It's their money, and as far as investing abroad - the world's economies are more and more interdependant... and what do you have against people in other countries benefitting from foreign investments, do they not count because they aren't Americans?

I have nothing against people in other countries benefitting from foreign investment. The issue that I thought we were trying to address, however, is whether this will revitalize the US economy .

What is really necessary is for business to adjust their inventory and production to be more in line with demand. Simply increasing consumption without addressing fundamentals will only offer short term relief and will put off the inevitable, possibly making adjustments more painful. This is where I sharply disagree with the Bush administration, when they were telling people to go out and spend money to get the economy going. Businesses have to change their behavior to reflect the changing marketplace, government should take no actions which will put off the needed changes in business behavior.

I just don't get it. You're profoundly against government, but this statement implies that government is somehow responsible for the failings of individual businesses, and so government should hold the hands of business and help them change their behavior.

One need only to look at the monetary policies of Japan over the last decade to see that easy credit does not necessarily 'jump start' the economy.

Quite true. Another problem with Japan is that consumers refuse to buy anything. They have extensive savings (over one trillion dollars, in fact) but they're in a vicious circle where don't spend, the economy keeps contracting, so they keep refusing to spend.

There is a fundamental difference between having money to spend because of easy credit versus spending money from savings or earnings. I am against the federal reserve system and fiat money, they are used to debase the currency which erodes savings and purchasing power through monetary inflation. Monetary inflation is in effect, a hidden tax that affects everybody, if the money supply is inflated by 50%, the poor person with only $10 in his pocket will see his buying power decreased by 33% and his $10 will only buy what $6.66 used to buy. When the government or the federal reserve inflate the money supply, they influence behavoir towards consumption and speculation instead of investment.

Do you honestly think the government deliberately inflates the money supply to screw people over? What would be the point of that? By the way, inflation is very low in the United States at present. In fact, there is currently a very real danger of deflation . Check out Paul Krugman's Op-ed on deflation in the New York Times. Japan is also currently in a deflationary spiral.

I am not wealthy, but I am not consumed with envy like collectivists.

You know, I was honestly hoping we could have kept this discussion simply at the level of economics and the pros and cons of the latest Bush stimulus package. But nooooooo, you had to come in with this lame bit of ad hominem amateur psychoanalysis. I see, so people who are left of center think the way they do because they are "CONSUMED WITH ENVY" of the wealthy. News flash: many of the people in the top tax brackets are themselves left of center. Professionals (lawyers, doctors, professors, teachers, architects, etc.) tend to lean left and their incomes are far above average. People in the entertainment industry also lean left, and a lot of them are stinking rich. Those of us who are against massive gulfs of income inequality think the way we do because we honestly believe that such massive inequality is bad for everybody, for society as a whole, and will eventually lead to the collapse of the very system which helped generate all of that wealth in the first place. A modicum of equality (and equal opportunity) is precisely what keeps things like class war from flaring up in the first place.

Collectivists look upon successful people as a resource to be plundered. Self confident individuals look upon them as people to be learned from. I have no more right to take a wealthy man's earnings by proxy through the government than I do by breaking into his house and stealing his earning from his wallet while he sleeps.

Good lord, man, the paranoia of this statement is truly hysterical. I have no personal designs on your money or anybody else's. I have never in my life been on the dole and never will. I earn my own money, I am self confident, and I pay my taxes just like everyone else. I am not "consumed with envy" for those who are wealthier than I am. I have enough money to meet my needs and furthermore, I do not equate wealth with happiness so there is no need for me to envy complete strangers who may have a few more zeroes in their bank accounts but who may also be miserable in their lives when compared to me.



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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1221771 - 01/15/03 04:58 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

wow....we agree 


Scary, eh? :grin:


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1222084 - 01/15/03 07:51 PM (19 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Your last reply to me veers wildly from the topic at hand



That's the way things go in these threads, but then you know that already.

Quote:

Huh? Who ever said anything about grudges?



I did... Duh!

Quote:

I just don't get it. You're profoundly against government, but this statement implies that government is somehow responsible for the failings of individual businesses, and so government should hold the hands of business and help them change their behavior.



You are right, you obviously don't get it. By manipulating credit in attempt to help out the business climate the government provides incentives to certain kinds of behavior at the expense of others. I never implied that 'government should hold the hands of business and help them change their behavior.' I am saying in essence that the government should butt out.

Quote:

Do you honestly think the government deliberately inflates the money supply to screw people over? What would be the point of that?



Their stated intention is not 'to screw people over,' but that is the end result. The point of inflating the money supply is to hide government confiscation of wealth by avoiding a direct tax. Debasement of currency is a centuries old trick. The term comes from the fact that unscrupulous people would decrease the percentage of base metals (gold, silver) in coins and replace it with cheaper metal while continuing to trade the currency to the unsuspecting public at the old value. With the invention and widespread use of paper money (and now digital money), all that's necessary is to print up more paper or add more zeroes to some ledgers. The first ones to spend the new paper (or digital) money receive full buying power that existed before they started pumping the extra currency into the system. As the extra currency works it's way through the economy, prices start to rise in response to the inflation in the money supply.

Quote:

inflation is very low in the United States at present.



I assume you are referring to a rise in prices which can be a result of monetary inflation which is what I am referring to. In certain sectors there is a rise in prices, the housing market is a notable exception. The bubble from the stock market appears to have been moving to real estate.

Quote:

Good lord, man, the paranoia of this statement is truly hysterical.



I appear to have hit a nerve. There is no paranoia nor hysteria in my statements. If you or any others believe people should be given handouts, put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is. Show the strength of your convictions by spending YOUR money. It is very easy to be compassionate with someone else's earning. I find it immoral to use the government as a tool to confiscate another person's property, particularly taking a greater percentage of his wealth than others just because the victim happens to be good at making money.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Evolving]
    #1224463 - 01/16/03 06:49 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

I am saying in essence that the government should butt out.

Yes, yes, I know, dismantle the entire Federal Reserve system. Good luck.

Their stated intention is not 'to screw people over,' but that is the end result. The point of inflating the money supply is to hide government confiscation of wealth by avoiding a direct tax. Debasement of currency is a centuries old trick. The term comes from the fact that unscrupulous people would decrease the percentage of base metals (gold, silver) in coins and replace it with cheaper metal while continuing to trade the currency to the unsuspecting public at the old value. With the invention and widespread use of paper money (and now digital money), all that's necessary is to print up more paper or add more zeroes to some ledgers. The first ones to spend the new paper (or digital) money receive full buying power that existed before they started pumping the extra currency into the system. As the extra currency works it's way through the economy, prices start to rise in response to the inflation in the money supply.

The inflation rates we have now are not terribly worrisome, especially to people who are aware of them and know how to prepare accordingly. Let me guess, you think inflation is so egregious that you want the government to stop printing money right? A few things I would just like to ask you to clarify:

If government doesn't issue currency, who will?
Who and what will back the value of that currency?
Why should I or anyone else accept that currency as legal tender?

I appear to have hit a nerve. There is no paranoia nor hysteria in my statements. If you or any others believe people should be given handouts, put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is. Show the strength of your convictions by spending YOUR money.

You haven't hit any nerves. I DO spend my own money helping those who are less fortunate and by giving to charities. My resources are not infinite, however.

You seem to believe that the majority of money taken by the government as taxes is just handed away to shiftless lazyasses in the form of welfare. This is absolutely incorrect. The majority of government funds goes into things like defense, law enforcement, infrastructure, sewage treatment and garbage collection, etc., things that benefit or protect the common good. Only a very small portion of government funding goes to direct welfare payments, and thanks to welfare reform most welfare is temporary and geared towards helping the recipient find gainful employment


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1224634 - 01/16/03 08:02 PM (19 years, 7 days ago)

You haven't hit any nerves

This is one of evolvings obsessions. He states something plainly wrong and when you point the error out he thinks he's "hit a nerve"  :smirk:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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