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 Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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 Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more  [Re: Xlea321]
#1213171 - 01/13/03 12:14 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Top 1% makes $313,000
Top 5% makes $128,000
Top 10% makes $92,000
Top 25% makes $55,000
Top 50% makes $27,682
wow if you make over 27,682 you're rich
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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 Phluck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1213200 - 01/13/03 12:41 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Why should those who pay more not get more tax relief?"
Because they don't need it. It's not "relief", it's just a gift. They're already rich, extremely rich. It's the poor people who are in need of relief. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the logic in giving rich people more money. I don't understand how this helps.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Phluck]
#1213213 - 01/13/03 01:04 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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****Because they don't need it. It's not "relief", it's just a gift. ****
so you determine who needs how much? How come you find this ok but at the same time find it an intrusion of your rights when someone tells you that you don't need drugs or the need to abort a child but it's ok to determine that a person doesn't need a certain amount of money.
Some people find 30,000 a year more than they need, that's not much.
****They're already rich, extremely rich. ****
What's rich to you?
****t's the poor people who are in need of relief.****
so we should give them taxes back that they haven't paid? That doesn't sound right....what is poor in your eyes? 10,000 a year? 20, 30?
****but I just don't see the logic in giving rich people more money*****
it's their money, i don't see the logic of stealing from the rich and give to those that don't contribute (relativley).
****I don't understand how this helps****
it helps on the consumer level....
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
Edited by Innvertigo (01/13/03 01:27 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Phluck]
#1213411 - 01/13/03 03:53 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Phluck writes:
It's not "relief", it's just a gift.
Incorrect. The money is THEIRS to begin with. All the new measure means is that they now get to KEEP what is already theirs, or at least to keep MORE of it than previously -- I don't know if the measure means that ALL income from dividend-producing shares is now to be completely tax-exempt or only part of it.
pinky
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Innvertigo]
#1213732 - 01/13/03 06:12 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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So it's basically people earning over $27 grand who pay most of the tax? That's pretty much what I thought. I thought you meant guys like Bill Gates paid most of the tax.
So why does three times as much welfare go to corporations than goes to the poor? Seeing as the guys who earn over 27,000 will more than likely need welfare at some point in their lives - why are they denied their own tax dollars?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Xlea321]
#1213837 - 01/13/03 06:55 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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***I thought you meant guys like Bill Gates paid most of the tax. ****
they do...they pay the most, hence recieve the most back. I thought this was common knowledge, apparantly not (and why do you care about the American tax code anyways?)
****Seeing as the guys who earn over 27,000 will more than likely need welfare at some point in their lives ****
I earn more than this and will never be on welfare and have never thought of it as a solution to my financial problems.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Innvertigo]
#1213854 - 01/13/03 07:01 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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they do...they pay the most.
Not if they exploit tax loopholes they don't.
hence recieve the most back.
That's one way of looking at it i suppose 
I earn more than this and will never be on welfare
No-one knows what tomorrow may bring inny. Not even you.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Xlea321]
#1213874 - 01/13/03 07:07 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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***Not if they exploit tax loopholes they don't****
You hate those that have more money than you, don't you?
****That's one way of looking at it i suppose ****
It's the right thing to do. If i pay $5 in taxes and you pay nothing who should get their money back?
****No-one knows what tomorrow may bring inny***
I know my pride would never let me accept welfare, i have too much to offer with the knowledge i have (school etc.) I would work at Mcdonalds before i'd go on welfare.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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carbonhoots
old hand
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Phred]
#1214029 - 01/13/03 08:04 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The money is THEIRS to begin with. All the new measure means is that they now get to KEEP what is already theirs, or at least to keep MORE of it than previously -- I don't know if the measure means that ALL income from dividend-producing shares is now to be completely tax-exempt or only part of it.
This is a real classic. Meant to make it sound like the rich are being picked on.
Even if that were true, would it not be for the greater good if adequate wealth were avaliable publicly for schools, toll-free roads, and hostipals+insurance?
But it's not true. I say that all personal fortunes depend on many more people than just the person who holds the fortune. There is a collectivist element in all our social affairs. It takes lots of minimum wage workers who deserve better than there getting in order to generate these fortunes. (Walmart NEEDS it's cheap labour to be a fat-cat corp.) Don't they have more of a claim to it than what their masters are forced by law to give them?
"To him who shows mercy, towards him mercy will be shown."
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-I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me
CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
#1214100 - 01/13/03 08:37 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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****Even if that were true, would it not be for the greater good if adequate wealth were avaliable publicly for schools, toll-free roads, and hostipals+insurance?****
They call that stealing....
****I say that all personal fortunes depend on many more people than just the person who holds the fortune. ***
just because you say it doesn't make it correct or moral.
****There is a collectivist element in all our social affairs. It takes lots of minimum wage workers who deserve better than there getting in order to generate these fortunes.****
I can't believe you FEEL this way. These businesses you refer to offer the community jobs that require VERY low skill, hence the low pay. If these people are so upset go to their competitor.
****Walmart NEEDS it's cheap labour to be a fat-cat corp.) *****
noone's forcing these people to work there
****Don't they have more of a claim to it than what their masters are forced by law to give them? ****
No, because they don't own the company. I thought this was obvious.
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Innvertigo]
#1214120 - 01/13/03 08:50 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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noone's forcing these people to work there
There are always enough desperate people in the world to be be taken advantage of if you are a big enough bastard to want to do it. Clearly walmart are.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Phluck]
#1214148 - 01/13/03 09:02 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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[quoteBecause they don't need it.]
It doesn't matter if they "need"it or not. It's their money being forcibly taken to fund unconstitutional programs. It belongs to them.
Quote:
but I just don't see the logic in giving rich people more money.
How can you "give" them what is already theirs? Perhaps you should have phrased it.. Why should the government steal any less of their money.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Dilauded
Sensability andrespectability
Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Phluck]
#1214169 - 01/13/03 09:11 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
"Why should those who pay more not get more tax relief?"
Because they don't need it. It's not "relief", it's just a gift. They're already rich, extremely rich. It's the poor people who are in need of relief. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the logic in giving rich people more money. I don't understand how this helps.
Well judging by this, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK HARD WORK IS LIKE. Those people who are rich WORK THEIR FUCKING ASSES OFF THORUGH High School, College, whatever the fuck afterwords. BASICALLY PPL WHO'VE WORKED THEIR ASS OFF A QTR OF THEIR LIFE TO GET WHERE THEY ARE, and you don't understand how they should keep most of the money that they've worked so hard for? Maybe when taxes get really high and your RICH BOSS isn't making so much of a profit that he'll cut you or you'll get laid off. A tax relief helps the poor as well, I used to make $320 a paycheck but after taxes and social security only came out w/ $290. With that thirty or twenty dollars, I could've paid for a couple of lunches, an extra tank of gas, junk food, good quality guitar strings, a game, or just blow it all on more drugs or drink it to waste or whatever else.
My philosophy is that every penny counts and any tax relief is for the better of the whole. People who are flat broke and finally achieve their financial heaven and you say they don't deserve it. Well my advise to you is if you're so jealous, so it sounds, go work your ass off and you'll become one of the rich. A tax cut on the poor and not the rich is far by THE DUMBEST FUCKING THING I'VE EVER HEARD. THE POOR DOESN'T GIVE JOBS OUT, and if people want jobs then the rich will need a cut as well so they can support another salary. Does that not make sense?
I'm not trying to be a complete dick, but sometimes it comes out like that.
Dilauded
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carbonhoots
old hand
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Innvertigo]
#1214178 - 01/13/03 09:16 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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That was full of more classics.
Quote:
I can't believe you FEEL this way. These businesses you refer to offer the community jobs that require VERY low skill, hence the low pay. If these people are so upset go to their competitor.
no one's forcing these people to work there
OK well obviously their competitor is paying the same thing. And yes, there is something forcing people to stay there. They have no other choice. If it were so simple for these people, as you imply, how is it that there are huge segments of human society hopelessly trapped in poverty/slavery.
Look, the masters are to blame for the problems of today. Not the servants. And on that subject, humans seem to naturally fall into the lines of masters and servants. The masters, (capital holders in our economic experience), should be more selfless and benevolent towards their servants. Not greedy and being all rich and stuff while their servants live trying lives.
The economic masters ARE NOT FAIR!
This market creed is kinda like satanism. It preaches self indulgence even if that means austerity for the rest. It's turned greed from a deadly sin into a cardinal virtue!
It's also funny how socialists and capitalist never can agree. Are there any converts out there? From either side? Or is it something there is no being converted away from?
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-I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me
CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES
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Dilauded
Sensability andrespectability
Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
#1214400 - 01/13/03 10:44 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's also funny how socialists and capitalist never can agree. Are there any converts out there? From either side? Or is it something there is no being converted away from?
a lot of people during the depression turned socialist
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Innvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
#1214467 - 01/13/03 11:07 AM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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****And yes, there is something forcing people to stay there. They have no other choice*****
The last i checked people can quit any job they want to. They do have a choice for example: Go into the military, go to school (don't give me any BS about not being able to afford it because i was flat broke when i went into college and they were more than happy to give me a loan), work construction (which pays fucking great). They have plenty of choices and if it just comes down to they don't want to work in other fields then they have to deal with the low-skill, low-pay job at walmart.
****how is it that there are huge segments of human society hopelessly trapped in poverty/slavery.*****
Slavery? Do be a fool, that argument goes nowhere.
While i can't speak for everyone of them i can say that a large portion of those that are in that situation are there by choice. Don't tell me that they are all there because wall-mart or a similar industry is not paying them top dollar, because to be quite frank a lot of them aren't worth the high pay because they are low-skilled. This is not to say that all of them are lazy, and unwilling to work but i would dare say a small minority actually cannot do better no matter how much they try.
****Look, the masters are to blame for the problems of today. Not the servants. ****
that's a very naive staement that doesn't need responding to. Grow up.
****humans seem to naturally fall into the lines of masters and servants.****
Only if you look at life like a pesamist. There are a lot of unhappy people on this site. I don't work for anyone, i work with them. If i don't like how i'm being treated i offer my services to the highest bidder.
****Not greedy and being all rich and stuff while their servants live trying lives. ****
Not being rich and stuff? So being rich is wrong? I hope you never own a business....on second thought that would straiten up your outlook on those that make more money than yourself.
****The economic masters ARE NOT FAIR!****
Life is not fair, deal with it. If you have to work twice as hard as the guy next to you then guess what you have to do? You have to work twice as hard.
****This market creed is kinda like satanism. It preaches self indulgence even if that means austerity for the rest. It's turned greed from a deadly sin into a cardinal virtue!*****
The #1 reason people start a business is to make money, not make a social difference.
****It's also funny how socialists and capitalist never can agree.****
It's because capitalists believe in individual rights and socialists don't
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America....FUCK YEAH!!!
Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson
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carbonhoots
old hand
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Innvertigo]
#1214672 - 01/13/03 12:26 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Life is not fair, deal with it. If you have to work twice as hard as the guy next to you then guess what you have to do? You have to work twice as hard.
Well, I'm doing my best to deal with it. But that don't mean I'm not going to not speak about it. As If that's what growing up is...
Yes I expect a fair world, and I'm not the only one. I expect people to be fair to each other. I don't endorse silent compliance towards unfairness.
I do endorse dealing with it.
I understand one can't get a student loan in USA if one has a marijuana conviction. I guess that person should work twice as hard as you and not speak out against it then. Ya right! How should that person deal with it? Speaking is the first step surley...
Quote:
****humans seem to naturally fall into the lines of masters and servants.****
Only if you look at life like a pesamist. There are a lot of unhappy people on this site. I don't work for anyone, i work with them. If i don't like how i'm being treated i offer my services to the highest bidder.
That's not pessimistic. That's the nature of many human realtions. The golden rule is supposed to be invoked by the master, but where it is denied, there is the birthplace of coersive power.
Do you base your aproval of the system on the fact that it's working for you at this moment? More power to you in finding the highest bidder...
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-I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me
CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
#1214682 - 01/13/03 12:29 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's also funny how socialists and capitalist never can agree. Are there any converts out there? From either side? Or is it something there is no being converted away from?
If the swing to the right in the last election is an indicator, there are many converts. Well maybe not from socialism but from liberalism. And it's about time.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Anonymous
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
#1214761 - 01/13/03 12:58 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes there are a lot of "classics" out there. And I think logic mandates agreement.
Here's a "classic" of yours:
"To him who shows mercy, towards him mercy will be shown."
I think that is a wonderful quote and I really appreciate your compassion.
Here's another quote from the "hateful" book:
"But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" James 2:6
"Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. You silver and gold are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You hve lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you." James 5:1-6
"The economic masters ARE NOT FAIR!"
True, life isn't fair. 
"This market creed is kinda like satanism. It preaches self indulgence even if that means austerity for the rest. It's turned greed from a deadly sin into a cardinal virtue!"
Yes, absolutely. It is a shame. But it doesn't change the fact that what I earn is mine and should belong to me, not the State or it's beneficiaries.
"It's also funny how socialists and capitalist never can agree. Are there any converts out there? From either side? Or is it something there is no being converted away from?"
Yes, I will speak as a convert. I was converted from thinking the State is my Daddy and should pass out goodies to me that were stolen from other people. I was once very liberal in my economic principles.
What converted me? When MY Country decided to take $1,500.00 out of my $3,000.00 check in one week. This was money stolen from me that I could have used to give to others. That REALLY pissed me off! 
I disagree with your conclusions but I have to admire your heart. 
Cheers
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carbonhoots
old hand
Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: ]
#1214818 - 01/13/03 01:22 PM (20 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
it doesn't change the fact that what I earn is mine and should belong to me, not the State or it's beneficiaries
Of course.
But, how exactly does one legitimately own a hydro-electric dam?
Something's fucked up with the concept of ownership there me thinks...
And as for your 1500.00 tax, it sure wasn't because of the USA's non-existant welfare stae, it was beacause of the 400 billion+ military and the shift of the tax burden from wheathly to middle-class etc. You must have got some kind of return on that too right?
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-I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me
CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES
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