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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1211690 - 01/12/03 12:13 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with this in theory, however if the goal is economic stimulous, should not the money be given to the people who will spend it? As one's income goes up, their average propensity to consume goes down, increasing thier average propensity to save. Ie: tax breaks for the rich do less for the economy than tax breaks for middle and lower class families.




My parents are considered rich and they spend lots of money on anything from entertainment to home improvement. Where do you get the idea that the rich don't spend as much. If anything, they buy more shit.


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1211692 - 01/12/03 12:13 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with this in theory, however if the goal is economic stimulous, should not the money be given to the people who will spend it? As one's income goes up, their average propensity to consume goes down, increasing thier average propensity to save. Ie: tax breaks for the rich do less for the economy than tax breaks for middle and lower class families.




My parents are considered rich and they spend lots of money on anything from entertainment to home improvement. Where do you get the idea that the rich don't spend as much? If anything, they buy more shit.


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OfflineDilauded
Sensability andrespectability

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 682
Loc: Krunkville, FL
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1211907 - 01/12/03 02:08 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Well first of all, you should consider who is talking of the matter if he's a Democrats then of course he/she will say the negative and Republican they'll favor it.

Quote:

"It's a tax reform, rather than an economic stimulus," said Kevin Hassett




Ok, TAXES are an economic obstacle making it harder to succeed. When you remove those obstacles, you make it easier to make more money or at least keep the money that'd be goin to taxes, and with more money there can be more jobs. WITH more jobs there's more people paying taxes so basically there's more taxes, better economy, and less unemployment.

Quote:

Bush said his proposals would help the economy, create jobs and "bring real benefits to middle-income Americans." Most economists doubted the plans would do any of those things.



Less taxes leaves more of earning which means if the boss can afford it he'll make another job. And with this, more ppl can have raises w/out their boss turning it down.

But the economy doesn't get better by government stepping in, shit if that were the case SOMEONE PLEASE NAME A SUCCESSFUL ECONOMIC SOCIALIST STATE... But as far to my knowledge no. And from what Mr. Clinton said during a press conference a while ago, a reporter asked, "Can you name a successful economic socialist state?" Clinton said, "No"

But as for the taxes cut, I'm all for it, the less government in my life is better for the whole of the American economy.
But that's me, I'd like to live a life w/out as much financial problem.

Dilauded


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1212288 - 01/12/03 05:04 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Who pays taxes?



Source: Internal Revenue Service, Statistics of Income Division, Unpublished Statistics, September 2002.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: ]
    #1212454 - 01/12/03 06:07 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Currently about 400 families pay 95% of the collected income tax per year in America.




Come again? Not only do you not provide evidence to back that claim, but the figures that BOTH luvdemshrooms and Innvertigo provide (who are certainly sympathetic to tax cuts for the wealthy) contradict you. The top 50% percent pays 96% of the taxes. 50% of the US population does not equal 400 families . . . try more like 50 MILLION families or something like that.


Edited by EchoVortex (01/12/03 06:18 PM)


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1212545 - 01/12/03 06:37 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Cutting taxes doesn't help much if those cuts aren't matched by spending cuts.

The assumption that article makes is that not only will taxes be cut on income from stock dividends, but that the amount of revenue lost from those cuts will then be recovered from poor and middle class taxpayers. I don't recall seeing any figures on how much taxes on the poor and middle class will be increased.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Anonymous]
    #1212584 - 01/12/03 06:49 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

I never said that the rich do not spend as much. Quit putting words in my mouth (keyboard?). I was refering to the Average Propensity to Consume. This is a relationship between planned consumption and disposable income. As a percentage, households with less income spend more of their disposable income, and save less. IE: a family of four with an income of $36000 is going to spend nearly all of that $36000, and save very little. However, a family with an income of $144000 will proportionately consume less and save more. I did not say that they did not spend more money. However this affects how additions to income are dealt with. A tax break of $1000 to a family with an income of $36000 will nearly all go to consumption, and very little to savings. What happens to that same tax break to the family with an income of $144000?


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1212610 - 01/12/03 06:55 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Come again? Not only do you not provide evidence to back that claim, but the figures that BOTH luvdemshrooms and Innvertigo provide (who are certainly sympathetic to tax cuts for the wealthy) contradict you. The top 50% percent pays 96% of the taxes. 50% of the US population does not equal 400 families . . . try more like 50 MILLION families or something like that. 




Hey, I could have been mistaken.  It was something I read somewhere from a reliable source.  I have been mistaken you know.  It's part of my charm. :wink:

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: ]
    #1212643 - 01/12/03 07:07 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Very charming reply.  Plus you're a cool and civil guy who works hard to keep the Shroomery what it is.  Plus you backed me up against Swami.  All is forgiven. Yeah, I'm a sucker.  :smirk: 


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1212654 - 01/12/03 07:10 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Very charming reply.  Plus you're a cool and civil guy who works hard to keep the Shroomery what it is.  Plus you backed me up against Swami.  All is forgiven. Yeah, I'm a sucker.  :smirk:   




I haven't said this before but just so you know it.

I'm a fan.  I read what you write in here and SPS.  Your absence was noted. :smile:

Thanks for the compliments.  I try real hard to make this a better place.


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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: ]
    #1212667 - 01/12/03 07:15 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

I try real hard to make this a better place. 


And you succeed, thanks. :grin:


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: I_Fart_Blue]
    #1212827 - 01/12/03 08:26 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

however if the goal is economic stimulous, should not the money be given to the people who will spend it? As one's income goes up, their average propensity to consume goes down, increasing thier average propensity to save. Ie: tax breaks for the rich do less for the economy than tax breaks for middle and lower class families.



You are operating under a fallacy in economic thought. Money put into saving can quite often be better for the overall economy than just spending it outright. If someone invests money into some sort of interest bearing instrument, that money is actually being lent or used for something (it's not just sitting in a mattress or a bank vault). The user of this money spends it with the expectations of higher earning which will offset the cost of borrowing (the interest paid). In the case of business borrowing, this money can be used to hire employees or buy machinery which the borrower believes will improve his total profit by increasing his profit margin, increasing his production or both. The employees or the producer of the machinery will in turn spend the money in a manner which will also pay wages, buy goods or invest in capital.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1212879 - 01/12/03 08:46 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Source: Internal Revenue Service, Statistics of Income Division, Unpublished Statistics, September 2002.

Unpublished? Where did you get this diagram from inny?

I seem to remember a big storm in england a while ago when it came out that Rupert Murdoch had paid less tax than an average wage-earner through clever use of the tax loopholes available to the rich.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinezeronio
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Loc: Slovenia
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1212912 - 01/12/03 09:06 PM (19 years, 20 days ago)

Rich don't care about the interests of the poor. While poor are going to risk their lives in Iraq to protect the interests of the rich.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Xlea321]
    #1213111 - 01/13/03 01:15 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

you're the LAST one that should be critical over sources, at least i post them.....and i'm referring to OUR tax system not your's which is most likely WAY too much.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: zeronio]
    #1213113 - 01/13/03 01:16 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

I think we should define WHAT is rich. Is it 30, 40, 50 60, 70 , 80, 90, 100 thousand? What is rich?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1213116 - 01/13/03 01:18 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

****who are certainly sympathetic to tax cuts for the wealthy****

where did you find this? I'm sympathetic towards those that pay taxes.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1213128 - 01/13/03 01:35 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

you're the LAST one that should be critical over sources, at least i post them

Well you didn't post that one did you? What site on the net did you get it from?

btw, why is it "unpublished"?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Xlea321]
    #1213163 - 01/13/03 02:04 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

****btw, why is it "unpublished"? ****

I have no idea, why not write them and find out.

www.taxpolicycenter.org

www.dailybeacon.utk.edu

www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/i...in01rt.xls

Yet another of a million sources on this topic

I realize it really doesn't matter what i post as a source because you are too ignorant to post your own...but if you do a small search on this topic you will find this to be true, besides this is an american topic and doesn't really concern you.

I'd like to see anything that you have that can prove me wrong. If you come up with something i will consider it, but i doubt you can or will.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/13/03 02:05 AM)


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: Evolving]
    #1213165 - 01/13/03 02:07 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:


You are operating under a fallacy in economic thought. Money put into saving can quite often be better for the overall economy than just spending it outright. If someone invests money into some sort of interest bearing instrument, that money is actually being lent or used for something (it's not just sitting in a mattress or a bank vault). The user of this money spends it with the expectations of higher earning which will offset the cost of borrowing (the interest paid). In the case of business borrowing, this money can be used to hire employees or buy machinery which the borrower believes will improve his total profit by increasing his profit margin, increasing his production or both. The employees or the producer of the machinery will in turn spend the money in a manner which will also pay wages, buy goods or invest in capital.





It is hardly a fallacy, just another viewpoint. Yes, money which is saved can be beneficial to the economy. Under a fractional reserve banking system such as ours, a fraction of money which is deposited (lets say 85%) is available for lending. This can either go to private inidividuals, or companies as investment funds. However, businesses will not be rushing to banks looking for loans, no matter how low the discount rate, if the expectation of profit (ie:sales) is not there. However this could also be acheived by lowering the required reserve ratio, which would make available more money lending.

Well, private investment could certainly be source of money as you did not specify. The bond market is shot to hell thanks to the low discount rates. Not many people are interested in bonds that offer such low intrest, and businesses cannot afford to offer bonds at decent rate. Investor confidence is down...the masses are not breaking down the doors of brokerage houses, looking to sink their money into the next Enron.


In short, money is currently available for lending, and at cheap rates. These rates are lower than corperations would be paying to investors. Money at financial institutions is not being lent out for investment at this time, quite the opposite in fact. The problem is not that money is not available at low rates, that is not the case at all. Investment needs to occur, however it will not without the anticipation of profit.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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