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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
help the rich...step on the poor, some more
    #1210662 - 01/11/03 11:07 PM (14 years, 16 days ago)

George Bush called it an economic stimulus package. What a joker...

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Oh, you lucky duckies! Bush plan could shift tax burden to wage earners
Posted on Saturday, January 11 @ 08:47:14 EST
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By R.C. Longworth, Detroit Free Press

By calling on Congress to eliminate taxes on stock dividends, President George W. Bush this week fired the first shot in a long-range campaign to rewrite the nation's tax code and revolutionize the relationship between the government and its taxpayers.

In his speech Tuesday, Bush called his proposals a "jobs and growth plan," and said it would stimulate the nation's economy with tax cuts aimed mostly at "middle-income Americans."

However, most economists said the cuts actually would benefit the super-rich. Even conservatives doubted the cuts, which Bush wants to take effect this year, would offer much stimulus now.

But this misses the point, the economists said.

The real story, they insisted, is the guiding philosophy behind the cuts -- a shift in the tax burden from earnings by business and investors toward taxes on income and consumption.



"It's a tax reform, rather than an economic stimulus," said Kevin Hassett, an economist at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative research group based in Washington, D.C. "That's how to think about it. This is a sign that they are serious about fundamental tax reform."

"Hassett is exactly right," said Lawrence Mishel, president of the liberal Economic Policy Institute, another Washington think tank.

"This . . . has nothing to do with creating jobs or fixing the economy in 2003. This is about lowering taxes -- and permanently. This is a move to eliminate taxes on capital and only tax wages."

Economists on both the right and the left agreed that, if Congress eliminates the tax on dividends, Bush's next target will be cutting corporate taxes, speeding up depreciation schedules on investment and possibly eliminating the capital gains tax.

Instead, there would be an increased reliance on the income tax -- and a flatter tax at that, with reduced top rates that would shift the burden to lower-wage earners. In the long run, the economists said, the administration is looking toward a national sales or consumption tax.

Economists consider both ideas regressive. A flatter income tax violates the principle that higher earners should pay higher rates of tax. And a consumption tax hits poor and middle-class taxpayers hardest, because they spend a higher percentage of their incomes just to stay alive.

The Bush strategy, Hassett said, foresees such a consumption tax, as the administration moves to "get people's capital income off the tax rolls altogether."

The administration had already been moving in this direction, with the tax cuts passed in 2001 to be phased in over the next decade. R. Glenn Hubbard, head of the President's Council of Economic Advisers, called in the past for a flatter tax system, and Paul O'Neill, the recently ousted Treasury secretary, was reported to favor replacing the corporate income tax with a national sales tax.

Bush is urging Congress to speed up implementation of the 2001 tax cuts, due to take effect in 2004 and 2006, which will benefit most high-bracket earners, and make them permanent.

But the administration's earlier tax proposals involved lowering existing tax rates, not eliminating them. The proposal to eliminate the dividend tax, and do it now, was a bold and radical measure to wipe out a tax altogether, at an admitted 10-year cost of $364 billion.

Bush said his proposals would help the economy, create jobs and "bring real benefits to middle-income Americans." Most economists doubted the plans would do any of those things.

Conservative economists like Hassett said Bush's proposals would end the double taxation of dividends, reduce corporation corruption by forcing companies to pay out their money in dividends, and encourage investment that might trickle down eventually to lower wage earners. More liberal economists refused to concede even these benefits.

"It's as un-stimulative as you can imagine," said Robert McIntyre, director of Citizens for Tax Justice, a liberal analyst of tax data. "It takes effect a long time from now, and it goes to people who don't spend."

The administration says Bush's proposals will cut taxes now by $1,083 for an average family of four earning $39,000.

But Burman and others said their figures showed that 65 percent of the benefit from the dividend tax proposal would go to the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans and 42 percent would go to the top 1 percent, where stock ownership is concentrated. The nonpartisan Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center in Washington, D.C., said the actual tax break for the theoretical family of four would be closer to $50.

Bush said about half of all Americans own stock, and 35 million receive dividends, and so would benefit if the dividend tax were eliminated.

But economists pointed out that most of these people have minimal stock holdings, and even these small assets are usually in retirement or 401(k) accounts. These accounts are tax-free until they are cashed in, so their owners would get no immediate benefit.

In fact, they would lose, because all income from the accounts, including dividends, is treated as ordinary income and so is subject to the income tax.

? copyright 2003 Detroit Free Press

Reprinted from The Detroit Free Press:


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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1210889 - 01/12/03 01:33 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Currently about 400 families pay 95% of the collected income tax per year in America.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1210893 - 01/12/03 01:40 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Since the rich pay far more of the tax burden, they should get more of any tax relief. Here's a chart I posted earlier showing the breakdown of taxes paid.

Share of the Income Taxes Paid, by Income Earned.
Percent of Federal Individual Income Taxes Paid by High and Low Income Taxpayers, 1979 and 1989
Income Group.....1979.........1989
Highest 5%.........37.6%.......43.6%
Highest 10%.......49.5%.......54.5%
Highest 25%.......73.1%.......76.5%
Highest 50%.......93.2%.......93.9%
Lowest 50%........6.8%.........6.1%
Lowest 25%........0.5%.........0.7%
Source: Information Please Almanac, page 75. (1991)

Why should those who pay more not get more tax relief?



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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblei am e goldstein
Your Friend

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 283
Loc: 4 Blocks from Ground Zero
Post deleted by Administrator [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1210906 - 01/12/03 01:57 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)



--------------------
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1210928 - 01/12/03 02:10 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

no level of respect for the middlclass or poor



How is it disrespectful to the poor to let those who pay the VAST majority of taxes to receive the majority of the benefits of any tax reform? It's not.

Quote:

watch what happens to real estate values because of this



Yes... lets watch. If someone selling a house wants to make a certain profit, he had to factor in the tax. Now to make the same profit he doesn't.

Quote:

the social programs needed to do so are being dismantled



Good. There never should have been any social programs.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblei am e goldstein
Your Friend

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 283
Loc: 4 Blocks from Ground Zero
Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
    #1210943 - 01/12/03 02:16 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)



--------------------
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1210955 - 01/12/03 02:24 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

It's too bad you would think I would lie about my heritage Kola. I don't. I have no reason to.

The statistic is one I heard a few months ago. There must be something in Google to back it up because the source I got it from was highly reliable.

Mitakuye Oyasin

Epelo.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: ]
    #1210958 - 01/12/03 02:26 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

We are All Related


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblei am e goldstein
Your Friend

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 283
Loc: 4 Blocks from Ground Zero
Post deleted by Administrator [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1210967 - 01/12/03 02:32 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)



--------------------
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1210984 - 01/12/03 02:43 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

what will we do with the rest of society left in the dust through all of this?



Family, friends, charities. It is not the place of government.

Quote:

in the meantime the young man can not properly feed, clothe and shelter his children WE require him to continue being responsible for



Then he should have been responsible enough not to have had them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1210986 - 01/12/03 02:45 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

You really are quite heartless, you know that?


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Invisiblei am e goldstein
Your Friend

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 283
Loc: 4 Blocks from Ground Zero
Post deleted by Administrator [Re: ]
    #1210988 - 01/12/03 02:46 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)



--------------------
Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.
3DSHROOMS is either clueless or the worlds biggest SCUMBAG
I lie and exagerate constantly... God Bless America!


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: ]
    #1211001 - 01/12/03 02:51 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

You really are quite heartless, you know that?



No, I'm not. I help family and friends. I also make donations.
I've even spent the last couple months worth of weekends helping the ex fix up the house she scrapped together the money to buy. I help those I wish, not those who expect it or feel they deserve it because "life isn't fair".


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1211006 - 01/12/03 02:53 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Quote:

and to luv.... we are all related bro... that is the beauty and at the same time sin of it all.... we are all connected, but toatlly out of touch because of sound bites and statistics... we need to think about all of this...



Actually, I don't buy into the we are all related line, it was a response to someting Mr. M posted.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: i am e goldstein]
    #1211008 - 01/12/03 02:55 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Thanks, I have always respected you as well.

I'll dig around a bit to see if I can find some data on that factoid.


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1211013 - 01/12/03 02:58 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

Asking people to take personal responsibility for their lives is a shameful outrage.

I thought you knew that.

As far as gifting people is concerned I do that as well. I would do more except I have a load of "dependents" I didn't ask for.

I wonder if I can claim them on my 1040 long form?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,965
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: ]
    #1211032 - 01/12/03 03:25 AM (14 years, 16 days ago)

If you had to list their names there wouldn't be enough paper.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinefalcon
In the green

Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 6,868
Last seen: 1 day, 6 hours
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1211130 - 01/12/03 06:00 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

http://www.house.gov/jct/x-45-00.pdf  Looking at this table it would seem we no longer have a graduated tax in place.  The top 10 percent earners are paying almost exactly the same percentage of they're income into federal income tax as the rest of us. If they are paying a larger percentage of federal income tax it is by this table what they would be paying, if everyone were paying a flat tax and there were no deductions.  The top 1 percent pay slightly more than they're share, but it only comes top about 5% more of they're total income. This is for the year 2000 maybe things have changed drastically since Bush was elected.
  Mr. Mushrooms as for 400 families paying 95% of income taxes, that would have to be some large extended families.  Using this chart they would include at least 69% of all wage earners. :wink: 


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Anonymous

Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1211246 - 01/12/03 07:52 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

The Democrats always propose to lower the taxes on the poor, yet the poor pay shit for taxes. Lowering taxes paid by the rich and large corporations actually does something for the economy rather than just look good on your voting record.


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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 3,495
Loc: SItting on the Group W Be...
Last seen: 13 years, 13 days
Re: help the rich...step on the poor, some more [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1211631 - 01/12/03 11:39 AM (14 years, 15 days ago)

Quote:

Since the rich pay far more of the tax burden, they should get more of any tax relief.

Why should those who pay more not get more tax relief?





There is nothing wrong with this in theory, however if the goal is economic stimulous, should not the money be given to the people who will spend it? As one's income goes up, their average propensity to consume goes down, increasing thier average propensity to save. Ie: tax breaks for the rich do less for the economy than tax breaks for middle and lower class families.

G. W's buying money come election time. Thats all.


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"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes


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