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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
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Is it not possible to fish without seeking anything and yet still find fish?
I'm not sure the seeking adds anything to the scenario in terms of actually catching fish. It does however bring other aspects, such as a personal connection to the outcome of the search.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: Kickle]
#12103987 - 02/26/10 06:22 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Without seeking you might end up fishing in the parking lot.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,953
Last seen: 3 days, 14 hours
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Hmm
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: Kickle]
#12104027 - 02/26/10 06:27 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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We all seek something at some time. The idea is not to become obsessive. If you hadn't sought to know yourself you wouldn't have all these interesting ideas to share.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,953
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seems like there's more to it than that, though. Like there is something moving that we should be able to just watch.
I've never been able to watch life pass me by. Perhaps I should give it a shot.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: Kickle]
#12104290 - 02/26/10 07:15 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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More? Why? Do you think your closest primate relative thinks there should be more? We were designed to act. That's why we have a physical body with muscles and the urge to power. Do you think that if our neo cortex was not so afraid of what it knows about itself that we would be so concerned with what lies behind the curtain? No monk would be leaving it all behind in a cave if we could handle the fact that none of this is personal.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
Wanderer
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,953
Last seen: 3 days, 14 hours
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I suppose because I have experienced more More than physiology and peeking behind the current curtain suggests should be possible.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: Kickle]
#12104591 - 02/26/10 08:02 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I often wonder what other animals experience compared to what I do.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
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you just dont want to possibly be held accountable for anything, you heathen... one day you will pay, one day Jesus grant you whats coming to ya... and thats
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: andrewss]
#12105112 - 02/26/10 09:34 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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He comes for drunks on Friday nights.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
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-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: andrewss]
#12105412 - 02/26/10 10:50 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: andrewss]
#12105422 - 02/26/10 10:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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I am so tired and disgusted with you guys mocking JC.
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
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Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Quote:
More? Why? Do you think your closest primate relative thinks there should be more? We were designed to act. That's why we have a physical body with muscles and the urge to power. Do you think that if our neo cortex was not so afraid of what it knows about itself that we would be so concerned with what lies behind the curtain? No monk would be leaving it all behind in a cave if we could handle the fact that none of this is personal.
Stop looking towards our more primitive beings as if they have some sort of truth to offer you. it annoys me
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
deff said: but yeah, clinging to the idea/desire of reaching nirvana is itself a way of suffering (though the buddha described the desire for liberation as the one temporarily beneficial desire or something) - but any idea we have of 'it' is not it obviously - so i think the approach of just improving in the present moment and letting things take their course is the best (and then, after enough practice, nirvana will just happen)
So, even though "it" isn't really it, people still try to attain it; in the process of doing so, they're disconnecting themselves from what there is, insisting to think that whatever they have now, their life and them being their own persons, can't be better than Nirvana and that their life is lacking fulfillment because they are alive, which implies suffering. How obvious is selective attention in this example? Suffering and sadness are the result of looking for happiness and fulfillment in this and that, forgetting that these feelings radiate from the self. They are not given by this and that, the "perfect" vacation, the most "amazing" meditation, or the "perfection" brought by Nirvana. It's like chasing the magic dragon.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: deff]
#12106092 - 02/27/10 03:36 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said: It sound to me that Nirvana is nothing more than a foolish dream for those who hope that there's something better than what they can offer themselves.
i think this statement is far more true of samsara actually
but yeah, clinging to the idea/desire of reaching nirvana is itself a way of suffering (though the buddha described the desire for liberation as the one temporarily beneficial desire or something) - but any idea we have of 'it' is not it obviously - so i think the approach of just improving in the present moment and letting things take their course is the best (and then, after enough practice, nirvana will just happen)
(apart from the practice part) Letting things take thier course is the best way i reckon, then insight is spontanious & natural, not forced & false
The desire for truth, freedom, peace, happiness, nirvana, is certainly a good desire, its the bait that pulls the mind out of this samsara to seek higher truth, although eventually even that bait must be left aside to truly open up into what is.
Just like how so many people are chasing enlightenment, they can't help it, the desire is so strong they want it more than anything else, more than any worldly object, but then in order to become enlightened you have to eventually leave that desire aswell, but without the desire arising in the first place the being would remian in samsara indefinitely. The desire for truth is truth itself, as the desire is not pointed towards an objective goal, its really the desire to recognize what is always here, but looking closer - to unite with what is always here you have to leave ALL desire, as what is, is here already so you cant really honestly desire it, the desire although it feels honest its just the mind turning away from objects to its own essential nature.
The paradox of the pathless path...
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: Chronic7]
#12106132 - 02/27/10 03:57 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
soldatheero said:
Quote:
More? Why? Do you think your closest primate relative thinks there should be more? We were designed to act. That's why we have a physical body with muscles and the urge to power. Do you think that if our neo cortex was not so afraid of what it knows about itself that we would be so concerned with what lies behind the curtain? No monk would be leaving it all behind in a cave if we could handle the fact that none of this is personal.
Stop looking towards our more primitive beings as if they have some sort of truth to offer you. it annoys me
You annoy me so quit complaining.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,425
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 5 hours, 57 minutes
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
deff said: but yeah, clinging to the idea/desire of reaching nirvana is itself a way of suffering (though the buddha described the desire for liberation as the one temporarily beneficial desire or something) - but any idea we have of 'it' is not it obviously - so i think the approach of just improving in the present moment and letting things take their course is the best (and then, after enough practice, nirvana will just happen)
So, even though "it" isn't really it, people still try to attain it; in the process of doing so, they're disconnecting themselves from what there is, insisting to think that whatever they have now, their life and them being their own persons, can't be better than Nirvana and that their life is lacking fulfillment because they are alive, which implies suffering. How obvious is selective attention in this example? Suffering and sadness are the result of looking for happiness and fulfillment in this and that, forgetting that these feelings radiate from the self. They are not given by this and that, the "perfect" vacation, the most "amazing" meditation, or the "perfection" brought by Nirvana. It's like chasing the magic dragon.
i agree - chasing anything (desires) leads to suffering
seeking to improve one's conditions however can be great, so long as they don't cling to "oh i wish things were like ____" etc... but more subtly as "hmmm this will improve my current and future experiences". there are some who will say even this is too much ummm 'planning' - but i think its essential in order to motivate one to meditate, gain concentration, insight, improve their morality/compassion, etc - after all mastering one's mind is a skill like anything else.
saying everything is perfect (which may be true) and using this to justify whatever happens might work a bit, but i think it can also lead to apathy - and thus future suffering etc. if you look at meditation masters alive on the planet, they've spent many many years in meditation as well as dedicated their life's attention to these things. the Buddha would not have reached buddhahood had he not said "life is suffering, i'm going to find a way out of suffering" - followed by years of asceticism and meditation - these things take applied effort (while still remaining unattached)
at the same time though - it doesn't make sense to start building self-identity and mental limitations like "i'm a beginner and i will need X number of years of practice to get <there>"
also i don't think one would ever reach nirvana by hyping it up and fixating on it - and i don't think many buddhists do this (the ones i've talked to anyways)
plus conceptualizing a non-conceptual statelessness is probably a waste of time
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 25 days
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Re: Reincarnation. [Re: deff]
#12106696 - 02/27/10 09:00 AM (14 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
seeking to improve one's conditions however can be great, so long as they don't cling to "oh i wish things were like ____" etc... but more subtly as "hmmm this will improve my current and future experiences". there are some who will say even this is too much ummm 'planning' - but i think its essential in order to motivate one to meditate, gain concentration, insight, improve their morality/compassion, etc - after all mastering one's mind is a skill like anything else.
Ok, so, then if this is true, why does only seeking Nirvana (without clinging to it) lead to happiness, self-improvement, and freedom, while seeking other things (also without clinging) will lead to suffering, according to you? What's the difference? What evidence is there to show that everything else = suffering, except an abstract idea that might or might not exist?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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