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Offlinedeff
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Re: Olympians [Re: Kickle]
    #12053909 - 02/18/10 01:03 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

well if one seeks liberation from samsara, then time is of the essence (as death is a great obstacle to spiritual progress)

the buddha's final words were: "Behold, O monks, this is my last advice to you. All component things in the world are changeable. They are not lasting. Work hard to gain your own salvation."

falling into a less fortunate rebirth when you currently have access to the dharma and likely conditions suitable for practice is quite unfortunate

and nothing exists outside of the mind heh


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Olympians [Re: deff]
    #12053978 - 02/18/10 01:12 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

If nothing exists outside of the mind, how can one reincarnate in a less fortunate way? Why would your own mind do that to you?

Why is it that when the Buddha became enlightened, no one else did?
Why is my mind separate from his mind, if mind is all there is?

edit: Not to mention that a goal of not being reincarnated is focusing very much on moments other than now. :wtf:


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


Edited by Kickle (02/18/10 01:15 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Olympians [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12053994 - 02/18/10 01:15 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I had a friend who won a meddle in the Olympics. When I knew him his career was over. He was a miserable alcoholic and had one of the weakest characters I've come across. They are just like everyone else.




Really? What sport did you get your medal in? :rimshot:




I got mine in "Heavy" medal. :hairmetal:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Olympians [Re: deff]
    #12054001 - 02/18/10 01:17 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

falling into a less fortunate rebirth when you currently have access to the dharma and likely conditions suitable for practice is quite unfortunate

Unfortunate for you maybe. Do you read this off of flash cards?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Olympians [Re: Kickle]
    #12054443 - 02/18/10 02:33 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

yeah i have a whole slew of them for these discussions :lol:

Quote:

Kickle said:
If nothing exists outside of the mind, how can one reincarnate in a less fortunate way? Why would your own mind do that to you?

Why is it that when the Buddha became enlightened, no one else did?
Why is my mind separate from his mind, if mind is all there is?

edit: Not to mention that a goal of not being reincarnated is focusing very much on moments other than now. :wtf:



think of strings of lifetimes as series of dreams... each "dreaming string" is a unique mental continuum so long as it has karma (momentum/desire/unripened future potentialities)

just as you can have a series of dreams at night where you're entirely different characters in each and in each dream not remember the previous ones - the same is true with a series of rebirths

unlike dreams however, there is no 'dreamer' outside of the dream - as in when one 'wakes up' (enlightenment) they do not become something else and instead lose all sense of individual existence. the idea of a dreamer itself is dreamt in the dream.

as for your mind and the Buddha's mind... the true essense of your mind is the Buddha's mind! by definition there cannot be more than one Buddha mind (as it transcends duality entirely) and every being has the Buddha nature (the ability to realize the buddha mind)

it can be tough to accept some aspects of buddhism these days, such as the Mind-Only philosophy, as our culture has become so heavily externalized (we externalize all things from the mind). but by studying emptiness (the inability of any phenomenon to have inherit qualities) one can start to deconstruct the common wrong assumptions about 'objective reality'

as for not focusing on the now - the emphasis of focusing on the now seems to be a very very simplified view of buddhism that is overly mentioned these days. concentration is very very important, but there's so much more to buddhism than focusing on the now (and really there is neither past, present, or future). if this was the only doctrine of buddhism, it could advocate mindless hedonism. instead, buddhism seeks to minimize present and future causes of suffering, and employs skillful means to ensure actions do not have negative results. the entire goal of buddhism is liberation from rebirth (reach nirvana). but yes, keeping this a desire will lead to suffering as well :lol: (it's more like peeling an onion than looking for anything specific)

anyways... :sun:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Olympians [Re: deff]
    #12054458 - 02/18/10 02:35 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

There is no rebirth. However as long as conditions are right there will be birth. That's all one can say without looking silly and superstitious imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Olympians [Re: Icelander]
    #12054502 - 02/18/10 02:40 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

then where does mind originate from?

from an externalist view, what you said seems logical based on experience. from a mind-only view (buddhism), dependent origination states that each thing has a string of preceding causes - and thus the first moment of mind of a new birth is the result of the last moment of mind of the previous life (and not the gross mind - i.e. memories and core personality, as this dies with the body).

if one seeks some proof of rebirth (which is expected and understandable) try looking into tulku lineages (where enlightened beings continue to reincarnate to teach the dharma) particularly how they're located and predicted. i admit it can seem unlikely/superstitious... but i no longer have any qualms accepting it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Olympians [Re: deff]
    #12054561 - 02/18/10 02:47 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Olympians [Re: deff]
    #12054699 - 02/18/10 03:07 PM (14 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

deff said:
unlike dreams however, there is no 'dreamer' outside of the dream - as in when one 'wakes up' (enlightenment) they do not become something else and instead lose all sense of individual existence. the idea of a dreamer itself is dreamt in the dream.




Agreed, there is no difference between an unenlightened individual and an enlightened one except in thought. Why someone would want to think that enlightenment is a state different than what they already are is beyond me. Throw in the idea of transcending rebirth and you're basically saying life is to be avoided... so much for not judging what is.

Or am I misinterpreting this?

Quote:


as for your mind and the Buddha's mind... the true essense of your mind is the Buddha's mind! by definition there cannot be more than one Buddha mind (as it transcends duality entirely) and every being has the Buddha nature (the ability to realize the buddha mind)




Which means its always right there. It never disappears. No matter how many lives you believe you live, the Buddha's mind is in every single one of them. If it is so difficult to attain, it doesn't seem like so much 'essence' as something always one step away. Something that you simply need to work harder to achieve. How hard do you have to work to become what you are? No matter what, you'll still be you. You'll still have your essence. 



Quote:

and really there is neither past, present, or future




So there is nothing? The Buddha mind is an illusion? It can never be achieved in time, only in timelessness? Or is it that the Buddha mind is timeless, therefore accessible at any point in time? Of which, right now is the only time that you can truly experience...

Quote:

buddhism seeks to minimize present and future causes of suffering




By claiming that winning a gold medal is suffering? Sounds counter to the point, if all is thought.


Quote:

the entire goal of buddhism is liberation from rebirth (reach nirvana)




That's a crummy goal IMO. I suppose it is foolish to enjoy life, then...


Edited by Kickle (02/18/10 10:54 PM)


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