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Anonymous

The Ultimate Crime
    #1203064 - 01/09/03 06:34 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I know this topic has probably been done to death in this forum but I wanted to bring up capital punishment.

Does the State have the right to take a life if a person is not in the process of killing someone else?

Here is a song by Todd Rundgren about it. It also states what he thinks the real "ultimate crime" is and I agree. It's called, appropriately enough, The Ultimate Crime:

I'm unfit for jury duty
I know policemen lie like me
But to tell... tell the truth
I'm just not up to the responsibility

'Cause in my day to day life
The ultimate crime is to live in discontent
Looking at bad design and wasting my time
Growing too corpulent

The extent of the ultimate crime
Was driving incompetent
And the ultimate crime could pass for an accident
The ultimate crime, the ultimate crime

I am standing in the gallery
When they lead the client in
And they shave off all his hair
Until there's nothing left, but shining skull and skin

And I wake up sweating bullets
And the ultimate crime is to think it's just a dream
It happens all the time, out of sight, out of mind
No one can hear you scream

We invented the ultimate crime
For the ultimate punishment
And the ultimate crime was our greatest accomplishment
The ultimate crime, the ultimate crime

The ultimate crime was being irreverent
And the ultimate crime was
Dropping the sacrament
The ultimate crime, the ultimate crime

The ultimate crime was being too lenient
And the ultimate crime was being too ignorant
The ultimate crime, the ultimate crime
Is not to care


What do all of you think?






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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1203085 - 01/09/03 06:40 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Does the State have the right to take a life if a person is not in the process of killing someone else?


I don't think it does. The judicial system takes on a God-like role when it sentences someone to death.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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OfflineLarrythescaryrexS
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1203091 - 01/09/03 06:42 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

oh damnit.

now I am thinking to hard...  :frown:


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

Sunset_Mission said:
"larry the scary rex
verily scary when thoroughly vexed
invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
mercifully massacring memories masterfully
relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
April 24th 2011


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


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Posts: 33,808
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1203228 - 01/09/03 07:27 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Does the State have the right to take a life if a person is not in the process of killing someone else?



If by "in the process" you mean caught in the act, yes the state has the right to take a life even if someone is not "in the process."

It will come as no surprise to most that I am pro capital punishment. I do think ALL capital punishment crimes should have more than just circumstantial evidence, There must be overwhelming proof, such as DNA evidence, video, confessions and so on.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (01/09/03 07:28 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1203333 - 01/09/03 08:10 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I would have thought this better suited to the SP&S Forum, since it involves deciding the validity of a fundamental principle of Ethics rather than how such principles once decided should be implemented in a society that has a government, but what the heck... I guess it could go in either.

To answer the question as it is worded, yes.

pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (01/09/03 08:13 AM)


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1203839 - 01/09/03 11:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Does a killer who deeply regrets what he has done still deserve to die?


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: Revelation]
    #1204059 - 01/09/03 01:02 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Does a killer who deeply regrets what he has done still deserve to die?



Yes...

Im split on this because its been proven that their have been innocent people exicuted for crimes that they didnt commit and its a fact that their are people serving life sentances right now yet they have done nothing to deserve it...

Ever See Shawshank Redemption? EXCELLENT MOIVE..

N E way.. Im all for capital punishment but the system is flawed and that makes me against it..


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GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,808
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: Revelation]
    #1204061 - 01/09/03 01:04 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes. Lets define killer though.

Someone who takes a life without societal permission.
ie: not a cop or a soldier doing their duty,or a citizen acting in defense of him/her self or others I'm sure there are other examples but you get the idea..


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinehtownkid28
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1204455 - 01/09/03 03:49 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

i think the state definitely should have the right to kill someone that has been convicted of murder. the usual arguement against the death penalty that i hear alot is, "what if someone who didnt really commit the crime gets executed?" my response to that is; what if someone who gets convicted of murder, but didnt really do it, gets sentenced to life in prison? should we get rid of life sentences too? i dont really have too much compassion for someone that commits murder in a state that has the death penalty. if they knew that there was a possibility of getting executed for their crime and went ahead and did it anyway, i dont feel sorry for them.


--------------------
"in your pockets with red hot rockets!"

"I love it when a plan comes together!"



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OfflineFatNug
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1204461 - 01/09/03 03:50 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Absolutly not...What good does killing someone do? Is it supposed to be scary? I say let em rot in prison, would you rather spen the last 50 good years of your life being raped behind bars, seeing sunlight for an hour per day...or be put to sleep? I know what my choice is...If I ever got me a life sentance Id prolly do somethin to get myself the chair.


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: htownkid28]
    #1204513 - 01/09/03 04:03 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

"what if someone who gets convicted of murder, but didnt really do it, gets sentenced to life in prison? should we get rid of life sentences too?"

If you find out after the fact that they were innocent, you can let them go, and give them compensation. That's a little bit difficult to do with the death penalty.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Anonymous

Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: Phluck]
    #1204559 - 01/09/03 04:14 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly. The State does not have the right to take away what it cannot give.

This is a recent change in my ideology. I was Pro-Death for all of my life until two years ago when I attended a philosophy class to examine the phrase "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".

What argument would you give a person on their way to the electric chair when they were innocent and about to be murdered by the State?

Think about that.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1204576 - 01/09/03 04:17 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm strongly against capital punishment.

Where is the old political forum mod Agent Cooper, he was so damn smart and he wrote this brilliant post against capital punishment.


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OfflineJiminiCricket
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1205371 - 01/09/03 08:54 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

There are some crimes that are so heinous or ghastly that they call out for the death penalty. If a man's premeditated murderer for instance. Or a home invasion robber, or a ransom kidnapper they deserve to die for their crime. IMO anything less is getting off mighty light. I believe that the man that spills innocent blood should have his blood spilled. But I also believe in love and forgiveness. I come to grips with this by it being the execution of justice, which is a reckoning, and not the act of a vengeful person, but is the punishment for a crime.

I also think that American juries convict too easily and often make assumptions of guilt based on circumstantial evidence or the testimony of witnesses with ulterior motives. The "justice system" is also blatently unfair to minority populations.

All these things must be weighed. It is horrible to execute someone innocent and I have little doubt that it has been done to several people since the reinstation of the death penalty. I think the burdon of proof in capital cases should require hard evidence and not simply circumstantial evidence or hearsay as so many people get convicted on.


--------------------
Molon Labe!


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OfflineJiminiCricket
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: FatNug]
    #1205404 - 01/09/03 09:04 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Absolutly not...What good does killing someone do? Is it supposed to be scary? I say let em rot in prison, would you rather spen the last 50 good years of your life being raped behind bars, seeing sunlight for an hour per day...or be put to sleep? I know what my choice is...If I ever got me a life sentance Id prolly do somethin to get myself the chair.



Given the choice you suggest I would choose death. But realitically I know that in prison if you just keep to yourself and try not to have problems with anyone but stick up when you got to you won't be vicimized like that. You just do your time playing cards with the guys.

But I don't think the issue is trying to make anyone suffer. I think that torture is inherently wrong and wouldn't ever inflict it upon anyone. Torture is also cruel and unusual punishment. Capital punishment is fair and not unduly harsh. It is recompence for a particularly heinous crime such as shedding innocent blood.


--------------------
Molon Labe!


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OfflineJiminiCricket
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: Thor]
    #1205432 - 01/09/03 09:11 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I used to strongly oppose capital punishment too. It was because of the racial unfairness I saw in it's implementation. I've changed my view on this. I'll tell you why.

If a man is attacked violently and kills the man that tried to kill him he is innocent and there's no blood on his hands. If a man violently attacks and overcomes a man and kills him it would have been justified for the murdered man to kill in defence of his life, but he couldn't/didn't. The murdered man just seems to call out from the grave for justice, to justifiebly take the life that he couldn't.

I'm of the opinion that if a man could be justifiably killed in the commision of any crime than he deserves death for that crime and if he doesn't recieve it then hegot off light. After the commision of the crime when the danger has subsided the person still commited a crime they could have died for on the spot but escaped instant justice should still be held responsible for his acts.


--------------------
Molon Labe!


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Anonymous

Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: JiminiCricket]
    #1205791 - 01/10/03 02:19 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I understand you take on justice. It is the one I hid behind for years and yet this statement of yours:

There are some crimes that are so heinous or ghastly that they call out for the death penalty.

Sounds more like revenge than justice.

Gandhi said "An eye for an eye ends up making the whole world blind."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: JiminiCricket]
    #1206094 - 01/10/03 06:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Or a home invasion robber...

But not a D.E.A. squad that breaks into your house at 2AM with no warning and shoots you as you try to defend yourself, then later admits they were in the wrong house. Oops.

That is acceptable because they were "Law Officers" just doing their duty. So instead of personal responsibility and corresponding punishment, the victim's family will just sue the city/state and the taxpayer will cover the multi-million dollar lawsuit as your average Joe was somehow responsible.

The "knockless warrant" clearly violates the Constitution and is a major step towards a police state a la the Gestapo.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1206096 - 01/10/03 06:29 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I know this topic has probably been done to death in this forum but I wanted to bring up capital punishment.

Enough with the bad puns. Stop checking to see who is paying attention!



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleThorA
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Re: The Ultimate Crime [Re: ]
    #1206201 - 01/10/03 07:33 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Heh one of my favorite quotes  :grin:

Quote:

Gandhi said "An eye for an eye ends up making the whole world blind."


 


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