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OfflinePhluck
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What are your political views?
    #1202923 - 01/09/03 05:10 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What surprises me is how authoritarian some of you are...


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phluck]
    #1203062 - 01/09/03 06:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm going to start one of these threads myself.



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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phluck]
    #1203069 - 01/09/03 06:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

What surprises me is how authoritarian some of you are... 


You know what suprised, and scared me, the fact that my score was so close to Innvertigo's origional score, yikes.......... :shocked: :wink:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phluck]
    #1203376 - 01/09/03 08:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What surprises me is how authoritarian some of you are...

That's sarcasm, right?

So far we have two dozen Libertarians vs a single Authoritarian (htownkid).

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Skikid16]
    #1203404 - 01/09/03 08:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

why's that bad?

it must be that personal responsibility trait i have :smirk:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (01/09/03 09:26 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phluck]
    #1203463 - 01/09/03 08:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What scares me is how almost all the respondents believe it is wrong to criticize others for what they choose to put into their bodies or what part of their bodies they choose to put into OTHER people's bodies, but it is correct to criticize others for how they choose to utilize the money they earn.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phred]
    #1203575 - 01/09/03 09:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It's always the same with those sort of people.

example:

We believe in freedom of speech as long as it doesn't hurt someones feelings, is PC, and oh the important one, as long as they believe as WE do....if not then you are a racist, homophobe, bigot and intollerant.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1203581 - 01/09/03 09:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Oh come now kids...you both know that nothing in life is black and white...or do you? :smirk:


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Rono]
    #1203592 - 01/09/03 09:33 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

i'm just refeering to the enlightened ones that use that logic. It's not directed towards anyone in particular.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1203870 - 01/09/03 11:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"We believe in freedom of speech as long as it doesn't hurt someones feelings, is PC, and oh the important one, as long as they believe as WE do....if not then you are a racist, homophobe, bigot and intollerant."

That's not even remotely how I feel. I believe 100% in freedom of speech. If someone says something racist, homophobic, bigoted, or intolerant, I think they have every right to say that. Also, I have every right to argue with them, or berate them for it.

Really, I'm completely for their right to speak that way. I do think that they should be away of what they're saying, and how it affects other people, which I think a lot of people who speak that way are not. They still have every right to say it.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phred]
    #1203877 - 01/09/03 11:58 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"So far we have two dozen Libertarians vs a single Authoritarian (htownkid)."

Out of everyone I saw, I have the second highest libertarian score. Most of the libertarians only have half of what I have.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phred]
    #1203879 - 01/09/03 11:59 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"...but it is correct to criticize others for how they choose to utilize the money they earn."

That's an issue of affecting other people, as opposed to yourself.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineViveka
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phluck]
    #1213995 - 01/13/03 09:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"Out of everyone I saw, I have the second highest libertarian score. Most of the libertarians only have half of what I have. "

Yes, but on the economic left/right scale you scored a -7.00.

If you're such a libertarian, then why do you espouse such a statist view of wealth distribution?




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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Viveka]
    #1214157 - 01/13/03 11:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Social libertarian. I have nothing to do with the libertarian party, I think they're a bunch of goofballs.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phluck]
    #1214956 - 01/13/03 04:05 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Phluck writes:

That's an issue of affecting other people, as opposed to yourself.

It affects me far more than it affects other people. The only affect on other people that my using my money the way that I feel is best has, is that some of those other people get upset that they can't leech off me.

Also note that my money was earned by my EFFORT. My money is nothing more than a concretized symbol of the effort I expended to earn it. By saying that other people have a "right" to my money just because they exist, you are saying that other people have a "right" to my EFFORT just because they exist -- in other words, SOME people have the "right" to tell other people what they must do.

pinky


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phred]
    #1216339 - 01/14/03 04:29 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"My money is nothing more than a concretized symbol of the effort I expended to earn it."

No it's not, working harder does not always mean more money.
Many of the most stressful jobs, with the worst conditions, and the most bizarre hours, are also the least paying. A huge number of the people in the highest paying jobs have never had to work in these jobs, they start in rich families, are guaranteed to have a university education paid for, and end up in a high paying respected position.

Sure, lots of people manage to jump the gap, and they generally have to work hard to do it, but these people do not represent the majority of the poor that work hard. Hard work does not guarantee success.

It's the enduring American myth, that their society is classless. Anyone who works hard enough can become super rich, or even president.

It just doesn't work that way. Luck, education, race, financial status, and heredity all play enormous roles in determining your cash flow.

Are you saying that SOME people have the RIGHT to more MONEY "because" they're BETTER than OTHER people?

"in other words, SOME people have the "right" to tell other people what they must do."

Well, yeah. I believe in a large amount of social freedom, but there are certain things that shouldn't be allowed, murder for instance.

We elect people for this purpose. Democracy is about choosing who gets the right to make these decisions.

Living in a country like the United States makes you one of the most priveledged people on the planet. Everyone is guaranteed a public education, hell, even your poor people are fat. You aren't prepared to pay a fee to be able to live there?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phluck]
    #1216713 - 01/14/03 07:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No it's not, working harder does not always mean more money.

You are missing the point. It's not just MY money, it is ALL money that is concretized effort. The fact that a baseball player receives tens of thousands of dollars for his working day while I receive only maybe a hundred does not change the fact that unless we expend effort, neither one of us receives money (unless of course someone chooses to give us some of their money) at all.

Are you saying that SOME people have the RIGHT to more MONEY "because" they're BETTER than OTHER people?

Nope. But a singer who has a good voice usually receives more money than one who is tone deaf (except under Marxism) and an inventor who produces something new like velcro usually receives more money than one who just comes up with a different color of masking tape (except under Marxism) and a salesman who can sell three photocopiers a day usually receives more than one who can sell only one every three days ( except under Marxism). They all earn their money through VOLUNTARY transactions among free individuals. No one is forced to attend their concerts, no one is forced to change from zippers to velcro, no one is forced to buy a photocopier from them rather than from a personal friend who also sells photocopiers. Their skill at their particular specialization of effort determines the amount of money they earn more than any other factor.

I believe in a large amount of social freedom, but there are certain things that shouldn't be allowed, murder for instance.

Murder involves the initiation of force, which is and always has been forbidden in all civilized societies since the dawn of recorded history. Why should a singer who has never harmed a single individual in her entire life be subject to the seizure of the products of her efforts simply because some other people can't sing as well as she can? What has she done wrong to deserve to have her rights violated?

Democracy is about choosing who gets the right to make these decisions.

Unchecked Democracy is nothing more than a big enough gang of people deciding what the smaller gang of people must do.

Living in a country like the United States makes you one of the most priveledged people on the planet.

I don't live in the United States. I spent the first three and a half decades of my life in Canada. I have spent the last fifteen years living in the Dominican Republic.

Everyone is guaranteed a public education...

Why should someone who has never had children be forced to pay at the point of a gun to educate someone else's?

... hell, even your poor people are fat.

Why should someone capable of supporting himself be forced at the point of a gun to support those who can't?

You aren't prepared to pay a fee to be able to live there?

Of course I will pay for the LEGITIMATE functions of government -- those which protect me from the people in this world who would initiate force or fraud against me. I have no problem paying voluntarily for police, courts, and military protection, period. I will NOT gladly pay for "Bilingual Cultural Studies", "Sensitivity and Correctness Training" for government bureaucrats, or foreign aid to Angola and Cuba.

But just because some people think income redistribution is a "good cause", it does not mean they are automatically granted a "right" forbidden to others (the initiation of the use of force) in order to attempt to bring that cause about by violating the ACTUAL rights of the rest of us.

pinky



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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phred]
    #1219543 - 01/15/03 01:48 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"The only affect on other people that my using my money the way that I feel is best has, is that some of those other people get upset that they can't leech off me."

I think thats more about you than anyone else. Just because having lots of money shakes your booty doesnt mean that other people are so bluddy fascinated with it.

I care about the welfare of the community personally. The money that goes into the community significantly helps people's quality of life. From the examples of serious mental illness, debilitating medical conditions, retardation, long term unemployment etc, I think there is a lot more that is situational that determines a persons ability to affect their circumstances. If they are given aid, that money goes back into the economy, or the good feelings of that person go back into the community in a different way. In the case of mental illness, if a person had to fend for themselves or beg others for financial support that would produce much more stress for an already stressed individual and make it more difficult for them to affect positive change in their life. In a society so greedy that no-one was willing to pay taxes to help the poor do you really think people would give to charity? If it couldn't be guaranteed then what would we do with the people on the street who arn't able to scrounge from friends or family, or what if they dont even have friends or family, do we just let them rot?


Edited by Eno_ (01/15/03 02:27 AM)


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phred]
    #1219619 - 01/15/03 03:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"unless we expend effort, neither one of us receives money "

The amount of effort is certainly not relative to the amount of money earned. Why should he get better health care, and why should his children have a better chance at being rich themselves?

"Their skill at their particular specialization of effort determines the amount of money they earn more than any other factor."

It's not so much an issue of talent, it's about marketing. The better musician doesn't make more money, it's the one with the nicest ass. When straight up commercial success is the only thing that funds art, you end up with shitty art. The most successful movies and music right now are the ones that are overproduced extravaganzas with absolutely no intellectual appeal.

Even after taxes, they still have more than others. It's just that government programs can give everyone an equal opportunity to be successful, instead of inheriting a social status regardless of your own skills and abilities.

"What has she done wrong to deserve to have her rights violated?"

Her rights are not being violated. Not paying taxes is not a right.

"I don't live in the United States. I spent the first three and a half decades of my life in Canada. I have spent the last fifteen years living in the Dominican Republic."

Okay, well, just the fact that you have access to a computer and the internet marks you as one of the most priveledged in the world.

"Why should someone who has never had children be forced to pay at the point of a gun to educate someone else's?"

Did he not get an education when he was younger?

You simply cannot run a government without taxes.

Education, health care, art and culture, among other things, are all integral parts of a good society. It's a governments duty to ensure that their society is made up of happy, intelligent, and cultured people.

Why should we even bother keeping humans alive if we can't further arts and science? A society of salesmen is not going to help anyone. This is not a strive for progress, it's just a strive for greed. A small group of lucky individuals profit, while the rest slave away in shitty jobs so that they can continue to live these rich lifestyles. Shouldn't the poor have just as much of a chance to join the elite as the rich do?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhred
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Re: What are your political views? [Re: Phluck]
    #1220402 - 01/15/03 09:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The amount of effort is certainly not relative to the amount of money earned.

Again, you are missing the point. Your stance is based on the misapprehension that money has nothing to do with what a person DOES. This is why you see no contradiction between saying "Yes of course everyone should be able to do what they wish: take drugs, have same sex relationships, worship Baal or Allah or Vishnu... as long as they don't harm anyone else" and saying, "Yes of course the government should decide that large portions of your life will be spent working on behalf of other people". Can you not see that by working for your money and leaving others in peace you are no more harming anyone than by sitting on your couch smoking a bowl?

Why should he get better health care...

Why should he get more food, or nicer clothes, or a house any bigger than a shack?

... and why should his children have a better chance at being rich themselves?

Because, believe it or not, people are not born with equal abilities. Some children are born into families with money, some are born with the native talent to become a world-class skater or scientist or singer or author, some are born spectacularly beautiful. It is not THEIR fault, any more than it is the fault of the child born to a goatherd in sub-Saharan Africa, or the child who is born short or ugly or of lower than average intelligence. Your argument is, in essence, that since SOME people cannot succeed on their own, NO ONE must be allowed to succeed -- the government must punish success and reward failure.

It's not so much an issue of talent, it's about marketing. The better musician doesn't make more money, it's the one with the nicest ass.

Now that's just silly. Luciano Pavarotti doesn't have a nice ass, yet he makes a hell of a lot more money as an opera singer than I could possibly dream of doing. He makes his money not because of a marketing firm, but because his singing is exceptional.

Besides, even if some talentless singer DOES make money based more on her looks than on her voice, SO WHAT? Who is harmed? Britney Spears has received more publicity than most, right? Have you ever bought one of her CD's? Didn't think so. People spend their entertainment dollars on what they personally find entertaining -- no one puts a gun to their head and herds them into N Sync concerts.

When straight up commercial success is the only thing that funds art, you end up with shitty art.

Incorrect. There are a hell of a lot of people who would rather watch a wrestling match than a ballet, yet ballets still exist. A hell of a lot more people buy black velvet Elvis paintings and gilded plaster unicorns than fine oil paintings and bronze sculptures, yet both still exist. Besides, WHO DECIDES what is shitty art? Harlequin romances make tons of money because there are a hell of a lot of people out there who LOVE romances. Those people aren't interested in reading Victor Hugo or Thomas Pynchon -- they find them boring.

Even after taxes, they still have more than others.

So what? The money that they are allowed to keep was not made at the expense of others. Their success does not prevent others from being successful. I went from a minimum wage job to a six figure a year job in a decade and a half, despite the existence of champagne-swilling, coke-snorting, Ferrari-driving, mansion-living trust fund babies. Their "success" was irrelevant to me one way or the other. Why does it bother you so much? What did they ever do to you?

It's just that government programs can give everyone an equal opportunity to be successful...

Incorrect. If I had attended a government sponsored arts program for the last twenty years, I would still not be able to make a living as a singer or a dancer or a sculptor. I just don't have the ability.

...instead of inheriting a social status regardless of your own skills and abilities.

What "inherited social status" are you talking about? You live in Canada, right? When you see a well-dressed dude in his late twenties gliding down the street in his BMW convertable, you have NO WAY of knowing what his background was. He could have been a high school dropout from some hick little farming community out in the boonies with parents who were up to their ears in debt at the end of each season.

Her rights are not being violated. Not paying taxes is not a right.

Then you define rights as "that which the government lets you do"? No wonder you make the statements you do.

Okay, well, just the fact that you have access to a computer and the internet marks you as one of the most priveledged in the world.

Perhaps. But no one gave me that computer. I worked for every penny I ever received. I inherited nothing from any relatives, never went to college, and worked at a minimum wage job straight out of high school. When I moved out of the house, I had exactly 45 dollars Canadian in the bank, a black and white TV, two ancient kitchen chairs, a waterbed and a desk.

Did he not get an education when he was younger?

Is it not possible he was educated in a private school? Or home-schooled?

You simply cannot run a government without taxes.

That is certainly true if the government abrogates all power for itself and sets itself up as a combination Big Brother/Nanny/Santa Claus -- because they claim it is their "duty to ensure that their society is made up of happy, intelligent, and cultured people." But those are NOT the duties of government. The only reason to justify the existence of government is to protect the people from force -- cops, courts, military. Period.

Why should we even bother keeping humans alive if we can't further arts and science?

If the government prevents predators from killing people, the people will produce art and new technologies on their own.

A society of salesmen is not going to help anyone.

Correct. Salesmen cannot sell what has yet to be produced, just as governments cannot confiscate what has yet to be produced. A society of PRODUCERS helps EVERYONE. A society of parasites harms everyone.

This is not a strive for progress, it's just a strive for greed.

The result of countless individuals striving to better their circumstances -- what you term "greed" -- results in incalculable progress for everyone.

A small group of lucky individuals profit, while the rest slave away in shitty jobs so that they can continue to live these rich lifestyles.

A SMALL group? Who profited more from the invention of the automatic clothes washer: its inventor or the hundreds of millions of women freed from endless hours of cheerless drudgery? Who profited more from the invention of the tractor? Its inventor or the hundreds of millions of farmers who no longer had to trudge behind an ox-drawn wooden plow?

Shouldn't the poor have just as much of a chance to join the elite as the rich do?

Of course. And, in a free country, they do. I was once poor. I'm not any longer. My parents were once poor. They are not any longer.

pinky


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